Islamophobia in Canada

[dialamah]

That's my point. They are already here. We can't do anything about them.

Good point. All righty then, no more male immigrants from any country and no more boy babies. Then (well, in 75 years, give or take) we women will be safe from any potential rapist.

[ReeferMadness]

The principal invoked here is asking moderates to speak up against extremists, both for Canadians and for Muslims everywhere.

You probably don't even recognize how offensively silly the statement you just made really is. Here - let me show you.

The principal invoked here is asking moderate white people to speak up against white supremacists, both for Canadians and white people everywhere.

The principal invoked here is asking moderate Christians to speak up against the Ku Klux Klan both for Canadians and Christians everywhere.

Now do you see?

[Michael Hardner]

http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/22058/have-multiple-intelligence-services-estimated-that-15-25-of-the-muslim-populati

Thanks, drummindiver. That's a considered response - all I was asking.

" the numbers presented are not that surprising given that 2/3 of Western European Muslims can be considered fundamentalist or radical believers, according to a 2013 poll.

The author analyzed data from a representative survey among immigrants and natives in six European countries. Two thirds of the Muslims interviewed say that religious rules are more important to them than the laws of the country in which they live. Three quarters of the respondents hold the opinion that there is only one legitimate interpretation of the Koran.

... but misused

The key problem in the original statement is the not-so-subtle indication that fundamentalists are all potentially violent terrorists, but that's not how it goes. By the same definition a Catholic nun is probably a Catholic fundamentalist, but not necessarily a commando-style terrorist!

More interesting information which I've found is this document: it has no numbers but it's a really interesting description of all the facets of Islamic radicalization, and you might find it useful: Studies into violent radicalisation -- The beliefs ideologies and narratives"

[Michael Hardner]

First link clearly states approval rates of terrorist groups.

I guess in some places supporting terrorists doesn't equate to radicalization?

And I guess up to 95% approval rating for Sharia isn't considered radical.

Ok.

It's a stretch in both cases.

Can I call somebody a religious wingnut and extremist if they are against the separation of church and state ? I doubt it.

[drummindiver]

It's a stretch in both cases.

Can I call somebody a religious wingnut and extremist if they are against the separation of church and state ? I doubt it.

I don't really understand your analogy.

Sharia isn't just about combining politics and religion. It is a violent ideology. Let's look at a few concepts of Sharia.

-Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand

-Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death

-A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death

-A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.

-Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman,

-A woman's testimony in court, allowed only in property cases, carries half the weight of a man's.

-A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits.

- woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative,

If you believe that this is a reasonable ideology to live by, sorry, you are radical.

Edited November 20, 2015 by drummindiver

[poochy]

The principal invoked here is asking moderate Christians to speak up against the Ku Klux Klan both for Canadians and Christians everywhere.

I must have missed it in the news, how many people have the KKK killed recently? That is such a non argument, anyway, just to be clear, everything the KKK did was wrong, beating that muslim woman in Toronto was wrong, burning the mosque, wrong. Using these minor incidents of Islamophobia, especially in response to Paris, as an excuse to navel gaze and distract us from the people who are killing people, also wrong.

[Peter F]

People get to believe whatever the hell they want to believe. It is not criminal to believe something. In this country we go out of our way to ensure that people get to believe whatever the want and are not punished for doing so. If, however, anyone's actions could run afoul of the law - without regard to what the belief is that drove the action.

In fact its perfectly fine in this country to hold radical beliefs. What isn't fine is breaking laws, the state don't give a damn about your beliefs when that line is crossed - and shouldn't.

[cloutier]

Obviously, we are doomed and will be assimilated. But honestly, I was laughing at the end.

Falling birthrates are true, and its why immigration is important to keep our economy going.

Culture changes; 50 or 75 years ago, we had a different culture than we currently do, even without the Islam horde. Gay marriage was unheard of, gay people were invisible, people got married and then had the kids -- even if the first one arrived a little early and it was pretty acceptable to slap around your wife if she got out of line. We're also rumored to have had stronger families, and more connected communities.

The same thing that is being said on this video has been said about the Chinese, in my lifetime - including the 'fact' that it was part of China's plan to take over the world by exporting it's people. Yet, in this country, we are still Canadian - although some of us have Chinese features.

Even if falling birth-rates cause us 'whites' to disappear entirely, we can hardly blame Islam or any other specific group of people for that - if we're too lame to even procreate, why should we survive? And ultimately, we're all humans, so what difference does it make what color our skin or hair is, or what particular deity we're following in 100 years?

The entire video is just propaganda; please try to be smarter than they are.

Nice points, thanks for sharing.

[Michael Hardner]

It is a violent ideology.

Ok. And I'm not arguing here so much as asking you questions, since you have more information on this topic than I do clearly.

But isn't it possible that people could a religious state, a Muslim or Christian state, without supporting all tenets of the holy books upon which the religion is based ? Can you say for sure that a Christian or Muslim who says that the state should be combined with the religion would mitigate that somewhat ?

I think one of the pages you posted - a Pew study - actually said Sharia "for Muslims in the country", for example.

[Rue]

Suggesting we never take in a Muslim to Canada as a refugee or immigrant because of Muslim terrorists is illogical. it makes no sense.

Not all Muslims are terrorists. If we are worried about terrorists the issue is how to screen for terrorists.

its the issue of screening for terrorism that exists because we would need to screen everyone not just Muslims for potential terrorists, criminals, etc.

the risk does not go away simply because someone is not Muslim.

There is another issue however that some people are too politically correct to come right out and discuss. So let us do that and not beat around the bush.

What many are now worried about are Muslim people, period. ALL Muslims. Why? Because the average person does not know how to differentiate between a terrorist Muslim and a non terrorist Muslim to start with. Next, some Muslims retain or believe derarly or strongly and will not give up certain cultural values that go against the basic values of Canada.

Non Muslims may not see women as inferior or sex as an issue that requires we cover women head to toe to resist temptation. Some do not agree with any Muslim sharia laws and their lack of seperation from the state. Some find the passages in the Koran that define non believers as infidel unacceptable.

Some drink and do not feel it should be illegal. some believe marrying more than once is unacceptable.

Some believe gays are damned, abortion or free choice is unacceptable. euthenasia is unacceptable./

There are many non terrorist cultural values Muslims retain or strongly believe in and want that non Muslims in Canada do not want and that causes friction as well no differently than it causes friction when those same values are expressed by non Muslims as well.

Some Canadians are fed up being said they have to accept and accommodate cultural values they do not agree with and they feel it is their right to disagree and they resent being labled Islamophobic as a catch phrase to prevent debate and challenging certain cultural values and in effect giving Muslims a race card to prevent criticizing certain values.

I resent anyone saying I am an Islamophobe because I disagree with certain conventional Islamic beleifs. i question those beliefs in Jews and Christians as well. Doesn't make me a Jewaphobe or Christianaphobe.

i have had numerous debates with orthodox Jews and Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Bahaiis, on god, etc. Doesn't make me phobic.

The dialogue as to what cultures we want in Canada I would argue is being repressed i say by people hiding behind names like islamophobia.

we have to be able to come out in the open and talk about what values we want in Canada.

This crap of saying just come to Canada and be as bigoted and intolerant as you want, that's fine. When you want to be racist, sexist, anti-semitic, anti-gay just couch it as your Islamic belief, then no one can criticize you.

Crap.

You come to this country get it clear, democracy does not give you one way rights to be a bigot but pose yourself as a victim if you can't be a bigot.

Now spit it out people. if you do not agree with certain values in Islam, say so. Doesn't make you a bigot.

What makes you hateful is if impose negative stereotypes on all ALL Muslims which have no proof and are subjective such as all Muslims are terrorists.

Now for me, i think taking in Muslim refugees is a liberal guilt trendy knee jerk reaction. As we speak thousands of Nigerian Christians and Sudanese Christians and non muslims in Mali, Malawi, to name a few nations are being slaughtered. its not in the news the way the slaughter of white people is.

That is reality. I hate Muslim extremists. When they create refugees, where was Trudeau and the rest of you bleeding hearts/ were you asking we take in black African refugee christians? Of course not.

Please do not tell me that in this entire world, some of you notice only when the refugees or migrants are Syrian and ignore the rest. I do not buy it.

I say loud and clear to all you liberal wind bags you are discriminating in favour of Syrian refugees when all refugees are just as needy. You knee jerk react to just one people and that is wrong and that does not make me Islamophobe nor does criticizing Islam make me one,.

i don't buy the liberal guilt behind the latest rush to take in refugees. I think Trudeau is a sheltered idiot who can't fathom victims are not like the MacDonald's meal of the day special.

[Guest]

Good point. All righty then, no more male immigrants from any country and no more boy babies. Then (well, in 75 years, give or take) we women will be safe from any potential rapist.

Probably help with Climate Change too...

[Black Dog]

Just as it is idiotic to start a thread about Islamophobia in Canada when to my knowledge non muslims are not killing muslims here for simply being muslim. Of course some muslims have killed, and have planned to kill other Canadians in the name of their religion, or some variant thereof, but that's not what you want to talk about, that would ruin the distraction. So if some Canadians are Islamophobic and some Canadian muslims want to, you know, kill other Canadians, exactly who is it we should be talking about? Anyway, back to the bigoted Canadians talk.

Most normal people are capable of holding two thoughts in their heads about two different subjects at the same time. Your apparent inability to do so is no one's problem but your own.

[kimmy]

Though I can appreciate where you're coming from, Naheed Nenshi, though born here, sort of proves that your generalizations are overly broad. I don't like Islam any more than you do, but your characterization isn't fair.

Yes, I appreciate that Muslims who grow up in Canada tend to hold more modern values than those who grow up in the Middle East. But we're not talking about bringing Canadian-raised Muslims into Canada, we're talking about bringing Middle Eastern Muslims into Canada.

Mayor Nenshi seems like a great guy, but he's not representative of the kind of views you'd find wandering the streets in most Middle Eastern countries.

-k

[Smallc]

Mayor Nenshi seems like a great guy, but he's not representative of the kind of views you'd find wandering the streets in most Middle Eastern countries.

I agree with you generally. Syria was, apparently, a more moderate country. I'm hoping that makes a difference.

[kimmy]

Review any right-wing and/or Christian site, and you'll see plenty of gay-bashing and hate speech. About 30% of the men already in your community would rape you, if they thought they'd not get caught. When was the last time a synagogue in Canada was torched by a Muslim? How many instances have there been in the last decade?

Stone-age attitude = failing to accept change.

Not all change is good, and there are some things I'm simply not willing to compromise on. Our hard-won rights and freedoms is one, and the safety and respect that gay people have attained in our country is another.

...

Regarding the proposition that any male is equally likely to commit rape, I reject that. The Scandinavian countries have been finding for years that Muslim immigrants commit a vastly disproportionate amount of rapes, to the point that Muslims are now receiving mandatory education on the subject when they arrive. This Norwegian woman, who works with immigrants, basically says it's not their fault because they just don't know how to act around women:

Linda Hagen – who runs 34 asylum centers in Norway – said defended migrants, saying it's difficult for people who come from countries 'where women never go out'.

'When you see a girl with a short skirt dancing at a party late in the evening, what kind of message will it give you?' she told Danish site Metroexpress.

She added: 'It's important to tell them that this kind of behavior or clothing doesn't mean that it's allowed for you to go the whole way. If a girl says 'no', it's a 'no'.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3297021/Migrants-Denmark-mandatory-sex-education-lesson-consent-woman-allegedly-raped-three-Eritrean-men.html

I have more to say, and I'll return to this after work.

-k

[dialamah]

Two thirds of the Muslims interviewed say that religious rules are more important to them than the laws of the country in which they live. Three quarters of the respondents hold the opinion that there is only one legitimate interpretation of the Koran.

Having lived a few years as an (extreme by many people's measure) Christian fundamentalist, I can tell you that they feel the same. God's law supercedes man's where they conflict, and my group's interpretation of the Bible is the only legitimate one. I bet if you surveyed any religious group, you'd get the same results.

[Guest]

Having lived a few years as an (extreme by many people's measure) Christian fundamentalist, I can tell you that they feel the same. God's law supercedes man's where they conflict, and my group's interpretation of the Bible is the only legitimate one. I bet if you surveyed any religious group, you'd get the same results.

The big difference being what happens when God's laws are broken. As a Christian Fundamentalist, what was your group's penalty for blasphemy?

[dialamah]

I don't really understand your analogy.

Sharia isn't just about combining politics and religion. It is a violent ideology. Let's look at a few concepts of Sharia.

-Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand

-Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death

-A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death

-A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.

-Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman,

-A woman's testimony in court, allowed only in property cases, carries half the weight of a man's.

-A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits.

- woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative,

If you believe that this is a reasonable ideology to live by, sorry, you are radical.

Those are radical beliefs, I agree. However, most Muslims and Muslim countries do not follow such an extreme version of Sharia law. Fourteen out of 81 countries follow the full text of Sharia law, the rest employ some modified form, usually specific to that which applies to personal/family issues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_sharia_law_by_country

[dialamah]

The big difference being what happens when God's laws are broken. As a Christian Fundamentalist, what was your group's penalty for blasphemy?

It was excommunication, as prescribed by their interpretation of the Bible, and which fate I ultimately suffered. I'm sure you can see why.

I suppose you'll now say that Muslims kill people who leave the faith, to which I'll counter, not usually, and then you'll bring up ISIS or Saudi or something, and I'll say "And that's still not every Muslim, actually the minority subscribe to such extremism".

Shall we just agree that I find your inability to avoid painting everyone who is Muslim with the same red paint, ignorant, and that you find my inability to see the danger Islam presents equally ignorant?

[Black Dog]

Those are radical beliefs, I agree. However, most Muslims and Muslim countries do not follow such an extreme version of Sharia law. Fourteen out of 81 countries follow the full text of Sharia law, the rest employ some modified form, usually specific to that which applies to personal/family issues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_sharia_law_by_country

No no no Muslims are all in complete accord with the most strict interpretation of Islam which is why you never see any sectarian conflict in that religion.

[Scotty]

If that's as far as you've seen, then you need to look at reports of how any innocent civilians have be taken out by drones.

From what I have seen of the UN reports the civilian deaths due to drone strikes in Afghanistan number in the dozens each year. Meanwhile civilian deaths number in the thousands, most due to indiscriminate IED use by the taliban. Wars kill people, and some of them are civilians. But drones kill fewer people than using traditional aerial bombardment because they're slower, and study the target and can be more accurate. That doesn't mean accidents don't happen but as Slate said in its story they are the worst weapon except for all the others.

[Guest]

It was excommunication, as prescribed by their interpretation of the Bible, and which fate I ultimately suffered. I'm sure you can see why.

I suppose you'll now say that Muslims kill people who leave the faith, to which I'll counter, not usually, and then you'll bring up ISIS or Saudi or something, and I'll say "And that's still not every Muslim, actually the minority subscribe to such extremism".

No, I won't. And that is the basic point that I can not seem to get people like you to understand. It is possible to be disgusted with barbaric religious practices without "painting everyone who is Muslim with the same red paint".

Shall we just agree that I find your inability to avoid painting everyone who is Muslim with the same red paint, ignorant, and that you find my inability to see the danger Islam presents equally ignorant?

Shall we just agree that I find your inability to understand that most basic of points (in bold, above) , astonishing, and that you find my inability to make the point such that you can, still your fault?

[Rue]

Syria a more moderate country? What does that mean Small C?

Syria was not a moderate country and has never been. Its still in a declared state of war with Israel since 1948. You call that moderate? You call The neo Nazi bath Party that ran it, and Col. Afez Asad and now his son Bashir, moderate? give me a break. They were/are cold blooded, sociopathic killers and use their Mukbaratt modelled and designed by Nazis after the Gestapo to kill millions.

They were and remain a neo Nazi state. hundreds of thousands not thousands of Nazis moved to Syria after WW2-as many as Paraguay the next largest concentration. They ran the government, military and secret police. They created a Ministry of Communications which do this day reproduces Nazi propaganda about Jews. Moderate?

Tell that to its Berbers, Assyrians, Druze, other Christians, Jews, and majority Sunnis.

Moderate-ridiculous. The Alawite minority who run it through the Assad family were and are anything but moderate.

Syria is a country riddled with tribal war but just based on Alawite-Sunni differences, but family feuds among Sunnis in different villages?

Moderate? It has epidemic levels of congenital deformities and diseases caused by in-breeding because cousins marry cousins because you don't marry outside your family there are no many feuds.

Moderate right. Its been the home for over 400 Palestinian terror cells.

Moderate sure. it bloody well invaded Lebanon at least 5 times and murdered 4 of its elected leaders and finance and support Hezbollah, Hamas,

and Iranian terrorism in Yemen.

.

its people? They grew up in a country of brutality, facism, violence, pathological hatred of Jews, Christians, on and on.

its people who flee necessarily will have mental and emotional illnesses you are not prepared for and neither is Justin. The fact you even think Syria is moderate is remarkable.

You are talking about people who have no transferable work skills, trauma, complete lack of trust of any authority, can't speak English or write it, will not understand our views about sex, homosexuality, worker's rights, body space.

We are talking about damaged, traumatized people. I say all of the above without meaning to insult but to talk cold hard reality. They are coming from a world of hell. The way they have lived has damaged them.

They don't just pop up and start working. They will have different hygiene values and habits-they will smell differently, eat different things, not want to be told what to do-some will not want to be here and hate you and everything you stand for and resent your liberal do gooder smile and assumptions about them.

Those Syrian refugees most likely to make the transition have family already here who will culturally translate for them.

Most Syrian refugees will have mental illnesses never diagnosed of treated and might manifest in criminal or self destructive behaviour and create vulnerabilioty to cancer, heart disease, diabetes, all which will strain our medical system already crushed with baby boomers.

These are the kinds of issues no one will discuss or talk about.

No one wants to talk as well about the fact that when you bring in 25,000 Syrians, what then happens to the other refugees who are not from Syria and suffering just as badly? Well?

Who decided we would play favourites and only pick one group to save?

Is Justin discussing the added medical expenses this will cause, the housing needed, the social services, the costs?

Does he even have a clue. Of course not. He has no idea what a refugee is. His is a world of privilege. He has no clue what lice are, what diaheria is, what tuberculosis is or how a child will react to loud noise years later by crapping in their pants in class. Not a clue. Where will he be when refugee men start drinking and beating the crap out of their wives after finding themselves meaningless in Canada?

Right.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Rue

[Scotty]

No I am anti-communist as I see it an extreme similar to fascism in fact i see both same points on a circle. I am saying a FAIRER distribution of wealth as I said in my original post that you quoted (so please read the posts that you quote before responding).

But what is fairer? In your percentages you forget that there is a provincial portion to income taxes which is added to the federal portion and takes taxes for higher income earners over the 50% bracket, over 60% in New Brunswick. If you take that much it discourages people from working harder, and encourages them to hide their money or go black market.

[eyeball]

I don't really understand your analogy.

Sharia isn't just about combining politics and religion. It is a violent ideology. Let's look at a few concepts of Sharia.

-Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand

-Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death

-A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death

-A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.

-Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman,

-A woman's testimony in court, allowed only in property cases, carries half the weight of a man's.

-A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits.

- woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative,

If you believe that this is a reasonable ideology to live by, sorry, you are radical.

If you seriously imagine any of this will somehow become the law of the land in Canada you are in need of a psychiatrist.