Islamophobia in Canada

[On Guard for Thee]

No, they don't unfortunately. It's a war thing: civilian casualties are unavoidable. Canadian authorities ignore/downplay their bombing raids that are reported to have injured non-combatants, just as every Western country does. Apparently, however, we think it's more "ok" than Muslims do.

Yeah I know a bit about how war works, unfortunately, however we can at least hope Trudeau will keep his promise to get those F 18's back home.

[bush_cheney2004]

Do you think the UK parliament will vote to bomb Syria next week?

Yes, but either way, the UK will continue special ops and covert military actions against ISIS on both sides of the border. Drone strikes against UK citizens fighting for ISIS raise more political attention than killing non-UK citizen-terrorists.

[Bryan]

I'm following you but when you say "those groups" are you referring to the KKK and those in your quote here or other groups ?

Sorry, there was a typo that I've since corrected. Those groups (plural) that we do not give the benefit of the doubt to, even if they never do any of the negative things we might associate with them and steadfastly insist that they are not like the people on the extreme end of the ideology. While I did previously mention the KKK and neo-Nazis, the fact is any group that even remotely identifies as being "white" gets tarred with that same brush.

We even saw much of that with the flap over the confederate flag. Almost no one was willing to even consider that anyone who flies that flag would be anything other than a racist -- even when they adamantly insisted that they were not. I also threw in the Hells Angels. Same deal really. The vast majority of their members do not get in trouble with the law. Hardly anyone gives them the benefit of the doubt either. We judge them based on the fact that they chose to join an organization with a history of crime and violence.

[bush_cheney2004]

Bullshit.

Canadians aren't out targeting civilians.

This...the key legal and "ethical" difference. More "innocent civilians" are killed in traffic accidents.

[socialist]

Yes, but either way, the UK will continue special ops and covert military actions against ISIS on both sides of the border. Drone strikes against UK citizens fighting for ISIS raise more political attention than killing non-UK citizen-terrorists.

All of Europe will soon be a police state.

But " at this point what difference does it make?"

[bush_cheney2004]

...We even saw much of that with the flap over the confederate flag. Almost no one was willing to even consider that anyone who flies that flag would be anything other than a racist -- even when they adamantly insisted that they were not.

Off topic, but not the case. Many people have no problem with the "confederate flag" (Virginia colors) in proper historical context. More people have suffered "racism" under the Canadian/U.S. flag than the confederate flag.

[capricorn]

...we can at least hope Trudeau will keep his promise to get those F 18's back home.

Of course he'll keep his campaign promise, if only to differentiate himself from Harper and the US.

[bush_cheney2004]

All of Europe will soon be a police state.

But " at this point what difference does it make?"

Europe is different than Norte America....I suppose Canada could pretend to be linked by history and culture but "Islamophobia in Canada" is just coffee table discussion instead of actual emergency police state powers in France.

[socialist]

Off topic, but not the case. Many people have no problem with the "confederate flag" (Virginia colors) in proper historical context. More people have suffered "racism" under the Canadian/U.S. flag than the confederate flag.

I feel so much better knowing how fast the UN Blue Hat Cavalry will come to the rescue.[/size]

[ReeferMadness]

I must have missed it in the news, how many people have the KKK killed recently? That is such a non argument, anyway, just to be clear, everything the KKK did was wrong, beating that muslim woman in Toronto was wrong, burning the mosque, wrong. Using these minor incidents of Islamophobia, especially in response to Paris, as an excuse to navel gaze and distract us from the people who are killing people, also wrong.

Which might be relevant if I was comparing ISIS to the KKK. I know it's complicated but try to follow.

What I was saying is that asking so-called "moderate Muslims" (normally referred to as "Muslims") to take accountability for extremists who cloak themselves in the cause of Islam is like asking the Christian community to take accountability for the KKK. Intelligent, knowledgeable individuals will recognize that the 1.6 billion Muslims spread across the world represent a very diverse community and that any belief system can be twisted to support all kinds of perverse behavior. Similarly, there are a vast number of different organizations that consider themselves as "Christian" and some will be more motivated to differentiate themselves from the KKK than others.

[Bryan]

What I was saying is that asking so-called "moderate Muslims" (normally referred to as "Muslims") to take accountability for extremists who cloak themselves in the cause of Islam is like asking the Christian community to take accountability for the KKK.

There is a huge difference though. People who engage in terror and violence are being disobedient to Jesus. The KKK's actions are in direct opposition to what Christ taught and how he lived. Christians do not have to take any account for the KKK's behaviour, because their behaviour is categorically anti-christian.

ISIS, on the other hand, is very directly following both the teachings of Mohammed and how he lived his life. Their behaviour is very directly as Muslim as it gets. People who engage in terror and violence are obeying Mohammed. It's absolutely fair to question why someone would want to "moderately" identify themselves as belonging to that ideology.

[dialamah]

ISIS, on the other hand, is very directly following both the teachings of Mohammed and how he lived his life. Their behaviour is very directly as Muslim as it gets. People who engage in terror and violence are obeying Mohammed. It's absolutely fair to question why someone would want to "moderately" identify themselves as belonging to that ideology.

Personally, I prefer to go by what actual Muslims and Muslim clerics and scholars say, and what they say is that people who engage in terrorism and war are not following Muhammed's teachings. It seems that this is a much more credible source than Western media, especially Conservative Western media, random You-Tube videos and other assorted ill-informed people.

Muslims Against Isis, Par 1, Clerics and Scholars

Over 1000 Islamic Scholars Condemn Isis Killing Innocents

24 Reasons ISIS is wrong: Muslim Scholars Blast Islamic State

Open Letter to Isis State, detailing all the ways in which ISIS contravenes Quranic teaching. It reads in part:

3- It is forbidden in Islam to oversimplify Shari’ah matters and ignore established Islamic sciences.

4- It is permissible in Islam [for scholars] to differ on any matter, except those fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know.

5- It is forbidden in Islam to ignore the reality of contemporary times when deriving legal rulings.

6- It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.

7- It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats; hence it is forbidden to kill journalists and aid workers.

8- Jihad in Islam is defensive war. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose and without the right rules of conduct.

9- It is forbidden in Islam to declare people non-Muslim unless he (or she) openly declares disbelief.

10- It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat—in any way—Christians or any ‘People of the Scripture’

The rest of the letter goes on to detail the crimes Daesh has committed against Islam, the scripture that forbids it. The letter has a lot of information about Jihad, including that Jihad is a war of DEFENSE, that there are two Jihads, one of which is against the ego. The letter also details the obligation of conduct surrounding Jihad. Here is one small excerpt that some people may find enlightening:

The Rules of Conduct of Jihad: The rules of conduct of jihad are summarized in the words of the Prophet Muhammad : ‘Wage war but do not be severe, do not be treacherous, do not mutilate or kill children ...23 .

’ The Prophet  also said on the day of the Conquest of Mecca: ‘Those retreating are not to be killed, nor are the injured to be harmed, and whoever shuts his door is safe24 .’

Similarly, when Abu Bakr Al-Siddiq  prepared an army and sent it to the Levant, he said: ‘You will find people who have devoted themselves to monasteries, leave them to their devotions. You will also find others whose heads are seats for devils (i.e. armed deacons25), so strike their necks. However, do not kill the old and decrepit, women or children; do not destroy buildings; do not cut down trees or harm livestock without good cause; do not burn or drown palms; do not be treacherous; do not mutilate; do not be cowardly; and do not loot. And truly God will support those who support Him and His Messengers while not seeing Him. Truly, God is Strong, Mighty26.’

As for killing prisoners, it is forbidden in Islamic Law. Yet you have killed many prisoners including the 1700 captives at Camp Speicher in Tikrit in June, 2014; the 200 captives at the Sha’er gas field in July, 2014; the 700 captives of the Sha’etat tribe in Deir el-Zor (600 of whom were unarmed civilians); the 250 captives at the Tabqah air base in Al-Raqqah in August, 2014; Kurdish and Lebanese soldiers, and many untold others whom God knows. These are heinous war crimes.

If you claim that the Prophet  killed some captives in some battles, then the answer is that he only ordered that two captives be killed at the Battle of Badr: Uqbah ibn Abi Mu’ayt and Nadr ibn Al-Harith. They were leaders of war and war criminals, and the execution of war criminals is permissible if the ruler orders it.

This is also what Saladin did upon conquering Jerusalem, and what the Allies did during the Nuremberg trials after World War II.

As for the tens of thousands of captives that fell under the jurisdiction of the Prophet  over a span of ten years and 29 battles, he did not execute a single regular soldier; rather, he entrusted that they be treated with kindness

27. The Divine Decree regarding captives and prisoners of war is in God’s  words: ‘…Thereafter either [set them free] by grace or by ransom …’ (Muhammad, 47: 4). God  commanded that captives and prisoners of war be treated with dignity and respect: ‘And they give food, despite [their] love of it to the needy, and the orphan, and the prisoner.’ (Al-Insan, 76: 8).

(There's a lot more, a really interesting read if you are into that sort of thing.)

[kimmy]

If there are a total of 500,000 (a high estimate, there's a scarcity of accurate data, so I doubled what I could find) Islamic extremists out fighting the "good fight", out of 1.6 Billion Muslims worldwide, that's less than 1%. That doesn't sound like "many" to me.

One could add in the number of Muslims worldwide who absolutely agree with what Daesh and other extremists groups are doing - let's double the amount of actual followers to 1 million for a total of 1.5 Million Muslims who don't reject the more 'heinous' aspects of the Koran - still at less than 1% of the total. Still not many. I don't know how many millions of Muslims worldwide would have to subscribe to the most violent of Koran teachings to constitute "many" of them, but given that we have less than 1% of active fighters, I don't think it's even close to 'many'.

And again, I'm not just talking about militants and terrorists (who I realize make up a tiny fraction of the world's Muslims). I am talking about people from places where the culture holds views that are contrary to Canadian values.

For example: Just counting Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Yemen, over 130,000,000 Muslims live in countries where gay people are executed. Add in Egypt, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, and that's another 430,000,000 Muslims living in countries where gay people can receive sentences ranging up to life in prison. That's over 1/3 of your 1.6 billion figure. I'd say 560 million qualifies as "many" by any measure.

Do all the people in those countries agree with those laws? No, but that's the cultural norm in those countries. We could go through and do similar exercise regarding views of women, respect for secular laws, and tolerance of non-Muslims.

I'm personally not very excited about the arrival of more people from places where I'd be considered inferior because of my gender, and where I could be imprisoned or executed for at least 4 different reasons.

I don't disagree that Muslims worldwide have a more conservative approach to life, but then so do most of the Asian and South Asian immigrants who currently make their home in Canada, and who are not imposing their particular beliefs on us. I have no reason to think the Muslim population would be any different.

Does the experience of other countries with higher levels of Muslim immigration not concern you?

-k

[kimmy]

6- It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.

10- It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat—in any way—Christians or any ‘People of the Scripture’

Regarding point 6, it must be pointed out that you and ISIS have very different ideas of what "innocent" means. As far as fundamentalist wackos are concerned, the people who were in that theatre in Paris, drinking alcohol and listening to rock music-- those people weren't innocent. They were in a "haram" place doing "haram" things. They weren't innocent.

Regarding point 10, as an atheist I take no comfort in that at all.

-k

[WestCoastRunner]

I'm personally not very excited about the arrival of more people from places where I'd be considered inferior because of my gender, and where I could be imprisoned or executed for at least 4 different reasons.

-k

We have laws here to protect gays, women etc from these beliefs. But we certainly should share our ideology with these refugees and educate them on western values. Why do you think they won't be open to that?

Or perhaps it's you that isn't open to the fact that people can be educated on more tolerant beliefs?

Edited November 21, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

[ReeferMadness]

There is a huge difference though. People who engage in terror and violence are being disobedient to Jesus. The KKK's actions are in direct opposition to what Christ taught and how he lived. Christians do not have to take any account for the KKK's behaviour, because their behaviour is categorically anti-christian.

ISIS, on the other hand, is very directly following both the teachings of Mohammed and how he lived his life. Their behaviour is very directly as Muslim as it gets. People who engage in terror and violence are obeying Mohammed. It's absolutely fair to question why someone would want to "moderately" identify themselves as belonging to that ideology.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Where to even start with all the nonsense you spout.

1. Jesus is a figure in both religions. Muslims consider him a prophet while Christians consider him the son of God.

2. According to every source I've read, Muhammad is mentioned just 4 times in the Quran, far fewer than Jesus.

3. The bible is filled with stories of incest, child killing, executions and mass killings.

4. Historically, there have been Christian theocracies that were every bit as vicious and dictatorial as ISIS.

I could go on but I'll leave it at that.

Reasonable people without biased and bigoted views on the matter would conclude the following:

Any belief system has good and bad elements. It's up to the followers to interpret the belief system in a an appropriate manner.

[kimmy]

We have laws here to protect gays, women etc from these beliefs. But we certainly should share our ideology with these refugees and educate them on western values. Why do you think they won't be open to that?

You think making them watch an educational video and spend an afternoon at a class, like the initiative in Denmark that I mentioned earlier, is going to cancel out a lifetime of social conditioning?

-k

[WestCoastRunner]

You think making them watch an educational video and spend an afternoon at a class, like the initiative in Denmark that I mentioned earlier, is going to cancel out a lifetime of social conditioning?

-k

Of course not but it's a start and it doesn't end there. Perhaps you should volunteer with a refugee family and put your fears to rest. Edited November 22, 2015 by Charles Anthony
fixed quote

[dialamah]

And again, I'm not just talking about militants and terrorists (who I realize make up a tiny fraction of the world's Muslims). I am talking about people from places where the culture holds views that are contrary to Canadian values.

For example: Just counting Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Yemen, over 130,000,000 Muslims live in countries where gay people are executed. Add in Egypt, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, and that's another 430,000,000 Muslims living in countries where gay people can receive sentences ranging up to life in prison. That's over 1/3 of your 1.6 billion figure. I'd say 560 million qualifies as "many" by any measure.

Do all the people in those countries agree with those laws? No, but that's the cultural norm in those countries. We could go through and do similar exercise regarding views of women, respect for secular laws, and tolerance of non-Muslims.

I'm personally not very excited about the arrival of more people from places where I'd be considered inferior because of my gender, and where I could be imprisoned or executed for at least 4 different reasons.

Does the experience of other countries with higher levels of Muslim immigration not concern you?

-k

You are correct, a lot of Muslims live under regimes that engage in inhuman activities. That doesn't mean all these people who live in those countries *agree* with them. People in Saudi, for instance, are put to death for speaking out against these practices.

There are also countries that are predominantly Christian who do terrible things -- FGM, killing of gay people, subjugation of women - and many Christians who live in Western countries may well secretly believe some of those things are justified according to Scripture, but for obvious reasons keep their opinions to themselves. It still doesn't mean that *all* Christians believe its right, or even that *most* do.

I'm concerned that because the refugees have arrived in Europe in such huge numbers recently that there is/will be considerable upheaval and that worries me. But as Canada is separated by an ocean, I do not believe we will be similarly affected.

I've heard reports regarding an increase in rapes by ME men in some countries. I do not yet know if it's accurate or fear mongering, because I have no way of assessing the credibility of the reporters. If I figure out which sources are credible and which are not, then perhaps I'll be able to form an opinion.

I agree that refugees arriving from Syria are likely to be more socially conservative than I or many Canadians are. On the other hand, the same could be said of South Asians and Asians. Yet, it's still White males who commit the majority of sexual assaults in Canada. So again, at this point, I find the difference in relative conservatism between Canadians and prospective refugees not a credible cause for alarm. New, credible information may change my mind.

[kimmy]

Of course not but it's a start and it doesn't end there. Perhaps you should volunteer with a refugee family and put your fears to rest.

I have no interest in volunteering to help people who'd have me put to death in their homeland, if it still existed.

I doubt we'll get any refugees here in Kim City anyway. They'll all end up in Muslim enclaves in the major metropolitan centers.

-k

Edited November 21, 2015 by kimmy

[WestCoastRunner]

I have no interest in volunteering to help people who'd have me put to death in their homeland, if it still existed.

I doubt we'll get any refugees here in Kim City anyway. They'll all end up in Muslim enclaves in the major metropolitan centers.

-k

I have no idea where Kim city is but plenty of small town communities are embracing them. It's too bad your community isn't as welcoming as both sides are in need of an education.

[dialamah]

Regarding point 6, it must be pointed out that you and ISIS have very different ideas of what "innocent" means. As far as fundamentalist wackos are concerned, the people who were in that theatre in Paris, drinking alcohol and listening to rock music-- those people weren't innocent. They were in a "haram" place doing "haram" things. They weren't innocent.

Regarding point 10, as an atheist I take no comfort in that at all.

-k

*sighs* The whole point of the letter the quote is taken from is that ISIS is WRONG. The point is that even if their war against (everyone) was ''justified" according to the Koran (and it isn't), killing innocents would be WRONG.

[WestCoastRunner]

I have no interest in volunteering to help people who'd have me put to death in their homeland, if it still existed.

-k

This sounds like fear is speaking full blast. The best way to beat fear is full exposure. Dare yourself to help a refugee family.

[dialamah]

I'm personally not very excited about the arrival of more people from places where I'd be considered inferior because of my gender, and where I could be imprisoned or executed for at least 4 different reasons.

-k

You already live in a country where you are considered 'inferior' because of your gender; we just happen to be farther along the 'progressive' scale than some other countries so it's less noticeable. And, does it not occur to you that many of these people ALSO want to get away from a country where they could be imprisoned or killed for at least 4 different reasons? Many immigrants come to Canada precisely because they don't want to live like that --- just like you!

[GostHacked]

You are correct, a lot of Muslims live under regimes that engage in inhuman activities. That doesn't mean all these people who live in those countries *agree* with them. People in Saudi, for instance, are put to death for speaking out against these practices.

This also helps explain the reason why we don't see all the moderates coming out against the atrocities of nations like Saudi Arabia. It usually ends in jail time or death. Speaking out against the 'royals' is not a good move.