blackbird Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 The government is deliberately expanding MAID. I see this as a form of genocide. Could it be that government sees it was a way to save vast amounts of money? This psychiatrist explains what is going on in Canada with medical assistance in dying (MAID). He says MAID is drifting to being out of control and may be already out of control. Over 13,000 people chose MAID in one year in Canada. He says this is far more than any other country which has it. The government is planning to open it up to people with mental illness in a couple of months even though there are many doubts and concerns about doing this. Professionals say it is impossible to say a person with mental illness of some type will become better or be reverse the illness and therefore they say MAID is not a rational option. There are also questions about MAID being offered to people who are having difficulty with in securing housing, food, etc. and as a result they want to opt out by taking MAID. The same situation exists for people with health challenges. The government is not providing proper care for people with mental issues, health challenges, poverty and so many are thinking their only option is MAID. Government deliberating expansion of MAID | Watch (msn.com) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 5 hours ago, blackbird said: The government is deliberately expanding MAID. I see this as a form of genocide. Could it be that government sees it was a way to save vast amounts of money? This psychiatrist explains what is going on in Canada with medical assistance in dying (MAID). He says MAID is drifting to being out of control and may be already out of control. Over 13,000 people chose MAID in one year in Canada. He says this is far more than any other country which has it. The government is planning to open it up to people with mental illness in a couple of months even though there are many doubts and concerns about doing this. Professionals say it is impossible to say a person with mental illness of some type will become better or be reverse the illness and therefore they say MAID is not a rational option. There are also questions about MAID being offered to people who are having difficulty with in securing housing, food, etc. and as a result they want to opt out by taking MAID. The same situation exists for people with health challenges. The government is not providing proper care for people with mental issues, health challenges, poverty and so many are thinking their only option is MAID. Government deliberating expansion of MAID | Watch (msn.com) I think it's reasonable to say that suicide cannot be genocide But it is very concerning. While i do firmly believe that people should have the right absolutely to decide when to end their lives, even if it's not a reason i'd approve of, i see the potential for abuse. IT's very easy for someone in a position of power or authority over someone to convince them it's best. We've already seen councillors nudging military vets with mental health issues towards maid. If your medical professional whom you trust says 'Maybe it's time to end it all", that could be very compelling. People should have a right to determine when the time has come to end their own life. If we dont' own our own existence, what DO we own? People should also be protected from undue influence in ending their lives, or from bad decisions made when they're not mentally healthy. I really don't know how to circle that square. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 Not unprecedented at all, the Netherlands and Belgium have gone farther. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/sep/11/assisted-dying-dutch-end-of-life-netherlands-unbearable-suffering https://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/holland-background/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 (edited) 23 hours ago, CdnFox said: I think it's reasonable to say that suicide cannot be genocide But it is very concerning. While i do firmly believe that people should have the right absolutely to decide when to end their lives, even if it's not a reason i'd approve of, i see the potential for abuse. IT's very easy for someone in a position of power or authority over someone to convince them it's best. We've already seen councillors nudging military vets with mental health issues towards maid. If your medical professional whom you trust says 'Maybe it's time to end it all", that could be very compelling. People should have a right to determine when the time has come to end their own life. If we dont' own our own existence, what DO we own? People should also be protected from undue influence in ending their lives, or from bad decisions made when they're not mentally healthy. I really don't know how to circle that square. I just don’t think the state or our government-run healthcare should play that role or have that authority. Yes the potential for unwanted death is enormous for the mentally ill, the elderly, people going through temporary situational hardship related to poverty, and so on. MAID is an outgrowth of a culture that has cheapened the value of human life from conception to debilitating disability, old age, and disease. It’s one thing to let nature take its course without an inordinate amount of surgical or other medical intervention like life support to keep someone alive. We have drugs to help people deal with severe pain. Our medical field should be supporting people with mental health challenges. Our government should help connect the poor with services and housing. It’s quite another thing to actively kill people, which is what our government is doing through MAID, and for just about any reason. Suicide doesn’t need to be illegal, but it shouldn’t be facilitated by the state. It is already becoming run of the mill and growing in Canada. It’s not admirable. I think it’s destructive, like hard drugs and abortion, which is not going away. Do I think any or much of any of this MAID legislation will be rolled back? No. What’s more, there will be new justifications and expansions of MAID. I’m keeping my British passport and a foot in the U.S., since those societies still seem willing to defend basic rights and the sanctity of human life, somewhat anyway, and more so than Canada. Edited January 14 by Zeitgeist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: I just don’t think the state or our government-run healthcare should play that role or have that authority. Yes the potential for unwanted death is enormous for the mentally ill, the elderly, people going through temporary situational hardship related to poverty, and so on. MAID is an outgrowth of a culture that has cheapened the value of human life from conception to debilitating disability, old age, and disease. It’s one thing to let nature take its course without an inordinate amount of surgical or other medical intervention like life support to keep someone alive. We have drugs to help people deal with severe pain. Our medical field should be supporting people with mental health challenges. Our government should help connect the poor with services and housing. It’s quite another thing to actively kill people, which is what our government is doing through MAID, and for just about any reason. Suicide doesn’t need to be illegal, but it shouldn’t be facilitated by the state. It is already becoming run of the mill and growing in Canada. It’s not admirable. I think it’s destructive, like hard drugs and abortion, which is not going away. Do I think any or much of any of this MAID legislation will be rolled back? No. What’s more, there will be new justifications and expansions of MAID. I’m keeping my British passport and a foot in the U.S., since those societies still seem willing to defend basic rights and the sanctity of human life, somewhat anyway, and more so than Canada. Well, all of that is entirely valid. I can't say anything in there is wrong. (except the part about britian, no society which makes it illegal to carry a normal pocket knife or locks people up for punching an attacker who broke into their home can be called 'defenders of rights' in by books) But otherwise, yeah. But i also entirely agree with the argument that if you've decided you want to end your life for whatever reason you should be allowed to do that. I mean - it's not really like you can stop people. I mean - 4500 people a year in Canada commit suicide without maid. Why make them do it in a fashion where someone has to find the body or it's a horrible mess or whatever. Like i said - not sure what the answer is. Certainly i feel like you're right and the gov't should be spending more to make sure they have other non-death options and those authorizing the MAID should be sure that they know about and have explored all those options. But other than that - i'm completely conflicted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 (edited) 17 minutes ago, CdnFox said: Well, all of that is entirely valid. I can't say anything in there is wrong. (except the part about britian, no society which makes it illegal to carry a normal pocket knife or locks people up for punching an attacker who broke into their home can be called 'defenders of rights' in by books) But otherwise, yeah. But i also entirely agree with the argument that if you've decided you want to end your life for whatever reason you should be allowed to do that. I mean - it's not really like you can stop people. I mean - 4500 people a year in Canada commit suicide without maid. Why make them do it in a fashion where someone has to find the body or it's a horrible mess or whatever. Like i said - not sure what the answer is. Certainly i feel like you're right and the gov't should be spending more to make sure they have other non-death options and those authorizing the MAID should be sure that they know about and have explored all those options. But other than that - i'm completely conflicted. Medical ethicists predicted the slippery slope. Unfortunately some cats can’t be put back in the bag. By the time most people realize what a mess they’ve made, it’s too late. When nothing is sacred, all manner of evil becomes arguable. Don’t get me wrong, there are compelling counter-arguments. I’ve just come to the conclusion that our civilization is getting worse instead of better, probably from around 2019 onwards, so I’m in restoration mode: https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/book-review-the-end-of-the-world Edited January 14 by Zeitgeist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUI_Offender Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 On 1/13/2024 at 7:11 AM, blackbird said: The government is deliberately expanding MAID. I see this as a form of genocide. Could it be that government sees it was a way to save vast amounts of money? This psychiatrist explains what is going on in Canada with medical assistance in dying (MAID). He says MAID is drifting to being out of control and may be already out of control. Over 13,000 people chose MAID in one year in Canada. He says this is far more than any other country which has it. The government is planning to open it up to people with mental illness in a couple of months even though there are many doubts and concerns about doing this. Professionals say it is impossible to say a person with mental illness of some type will become better or be reverse the illness and therefore they say MAID is not a rational option. There are also questions about MAID being offered to people who are having difficulty with in securing housing, food, etc. and as a result they want to opt out by taking MAID. The same situation exists for people with health challenges. The government is not providing proper care for people with mental issues, health challenges, poverty and so many are thinking their only option is MAID. Government deliberating expansion of MAID | Watch (msn.com) I completely agree with MAID. If one does not want to live, and suffers from either a terminal illness, or lifelong mental health problems, why should we as society dictate to them that they ahve to continue suffering? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 (edited) 20 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said: I completely agree with MAID. If one does not want to live, and suffers from either a terminal illness, or lifelong mental health problems, why should we as society dictate to them that they ahve to continue suffering? Why should Canadians be killing Canadians? There are ways to mitigate suffering that don’t end life. Putting people down like sick pets is not an achievement. If people want to end their lives they can find ways. We’re just making it tidy and efficient, and there are incentives for alleviating financial burdens on the healthcare system, the kids, caregivers. Whatever happened to trying to fix your life? It’s all part of the same give up attitude that brought us the divorce epidemic and free hard drugs. Nothing good or aspirational. It’s about taking the easy way out. That’s where we are. Edited January 14 by Zeitgeist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 (edited) 1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said: Do I think any or much of any of this MAID legislation will be rolled back? No. What’s more, there will be new justifications and expansions of MAID. I bet one day governments will offer retiree's a buy-out to volunteer for MAID instead of collecting a pension. Don't want to feel like a burden to society, the public health system or the environment in your old age? Bequeath a settlement to your family, a charity or perhaps a bureaucracy of your choice instead. Edited January 14 by eyeball 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 Anyone recall the episode on Star Trek where war was waged on computers and anyone 'killed' in a simulated strike were to report to a disintegration chamber? The economic argument for this practically speaks for itself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herbie Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 Disintegrate the homeless.... the only logical solution, right? The big difference in the Star Trek episode was the people weren't asking to be disintegrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 14 Author Report Share Posted January 14 (edited) 2 hours ago, DUI_Offender said: I completely agree with MAID. If one does not want to live, and suffers from either a terminal illness, or lifelong mental health problems, why should we as society dictate to them that they ahve to continue suffering? Killing is contrary to the Bible. Our bodies belong to God and only he has the right to end our life. There is a day of judgment coming. Revelation says: "11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. " Revelation 20:22-15 KJV Is it really worth supporting something like MAID? Edited January 14 by blackbird 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 40 minutes ago, herbie said: Disintegrate the homeless.... the only logical solution, right? Economically speaking. 45 minutes ago, herbie said: The big difference in the Star Trek episode was the people weren't asking to be disintegrated. Perhaps but they seemed to willingly support it, like human shields are said too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herbie Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 Perhaps if you follow that religion that believes the meek shall inherit (what's left of) the Earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 4 hours ago, eyeball said: I bet one day governments will offer retiree's a buy-out to volunteer for MAID instead of collecting a pension. Don't want to feel like a burden to society, the public health system or the environment in your old age? Bequeath a settlement to your family, a charity or perhaps a bureaucracy of your choice instead. Maybe shut the hell up .... they might be listening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 8 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: have that authority. They don’t. The authority to commit suicide resides with the individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 5 hours ago, blackbird said: Killing is contrary to the Bible. No it isn’t. 1Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 Just now, TreeBeard said: No it isn’t. 1Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. Seems oddly specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 15 Author Report Share Posted January 15 18 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: No it isn’t. 1Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. That was a command given by the Lord in that particular case. God gave a general command against killing near the beginning in Genesis: "6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. " Genesis 9:6 KJV That command was restated in the Ten Commandments given to Moses: "13 Thou shalt not kill." Exodus 20:13 KJV God gave commands to Israel at times as in 1 Samuel 15:3. That is God's prerogative as He is God. There are exceptions such as when police are carrying out their duties and self defence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 Just now, blackbird said: That was a command given by the Lord in that particular case. Yes, I know. Kill the babies, the goats, everyone and everything. The bible is not against killing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 On 1/13/2024 at 2:39 PM, CdnFox said: think it's reasonable to say that suicide cannot be genocide 😅👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 15 Author Report Share Posted January 15 1 minute ago, TreeBeard said: Yes, I know. Kill the babies, the goats, everyone and everything. The bible is not against killing. God ordered that in that particular case for a reason. Maybe you could investigate and tell us why. quote Leviticus 24:17 - And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death. Exodus 20:13 - Thou shalt not kill. Matthew 5:21-26 - Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: (Read More...) Romans 12:19 - Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 1 John 3:12 - Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. 1 John 3:15 - Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Matthew 26:52-54 - Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. (Read More...) Deuteronomy 5:17 - Thou shalt not kill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 (edited) 52 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: They don’t. The authority to commit suicide resides with the individual. Oh and no family or caregivers or anyone else would ever try to to encourage someone to commit MAID for any reason. It would never be incentivized by money or any ulterior motives, right? Elderly and mentally ill and poor people aren’t vulnerable, right? What could go wrong? Edited January 15 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 15 Author Report Share Posted January 15 (edited) 25 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: Yes, I know. Kill the babies, the goats, everyone and everything. The bible is not against killing. The Bible is clearly against murder. What you quoted was a special situation in the ancient past concerning Israel and its enemies. quote Euthanasia, sometimes called “mercy killing,” can be a difficult issue. On one hand, we do not want to take a person’s life into our own hands and end it prematurely. On the other hand, we do not want to prolong the process of dying more than necessary—that is, we want to preserve life, but not prolong death. At what point do we simply allow a person to die and take no further action to extend his or her life? A related issue is that of assisted suicide. Essentially, a person seeking assisted suicide is seeking to euthanize himself, with the aid of another person to ensure that death is quick and painless. The person assisting the suicide facilitates death by making preparations and furnishing the needed equipment; but the person seeking death is the one who actually initiates the process. By taking a “hands-off” approach to the death itself, the facilitator seeks to avoid charges of murder. Proponents of assisted suicide try for a positive spin by using terms like “death with dignity.” But “death with dignity” is still death, “assisted suicide” is still suicide, and suicide is wrong. We live in what is sometimes described as a “culture of death.” Abortion on demand has been practiced for decades. Now some are seriously proposing infanticide. And euthanasia is promoted as a viable means of solving various social and financial problems. This focus on death as an answer to the world’s problems is a total reversal of the biblical model. Death is an enemy (1 Corinthians 15:26). Life is a sacred gift from God (Genesis 2:7). When given the choice between life and death, God told Israel to “choose life” (Deuteronomy 30:19). Euthanasia spurns the gift and embraces the curse. The overriding truth that God is sovereign drives us to the conclusion that euthanasia and assisted suicide are wrong. We know that physical death is inevitable for us mortals (Psalm 89:48; Hebrews 9:27). However, God alone is sovereign over when and how a person’s death occurs. Job testifies in Job 30:23, “I know you will bring me down to death, to the place appointed for all the living.” Ecclesiastes 8:8 declares, “No man has power over the wind to contain it; so no one has power over the day of his death.” God has the final say over death (see 1 Corinthians 15:26, 54–56; Hebrews 2:9, 14–15; Revelation 21:4). Euthanasia and assisted suicide are man’s attempts to usurp that authority from God. Death is a natural occurrence. Sometimes God allows a person to suffer for a long time before death occurs; other times, a person’s suffering is cut short. No one enjoys suffering, but that does not make it right to determine that a person should die. Often, God’s purposes are made known through suffering. “When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other” (Ecclesiastes 7:14). Romans 5:3 teaches that tribulations bring about perseverance. God cares about those who cry out for death and wish to end their suffering. God gives purpose in life even to the end. Only God knows what is best, and His timing, even in the matter of one’s death, is perfect. We should never seek to prematurely end a life, but neither must we go to extraordinary means to preserve a life. To actively hasten death is wrong; to passively withhold treatment can also be wrong; but to allow death to occur naturally in a terminally ill person is not necessarily wrong. Anyone facing this issue should pray to God for wisdom (James 1:5). And we should all remember the words of former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, who warned that the practice of medicine “cannot be both our healer and our killer” (from KOOP, The Memoirs of America’s Family Doctor by C. Everett Koop, M.D., Random House, 1991). unquote What does the Bible say about euthanasia / assisted suicide? | GotQuestions.org Edited January 15 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 25 minutes ago, blackbird said: The Bible is clearly against murder. Killing babies for no reason is murder. God ordered the killing of babies. Therefore the bible is not against murder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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