Complicit in War Crimes

[marcus]

13 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Kid, you're already a joke.  It's a little late to be giving people advice on being taken seriously on this issue.

You are weak at having a debate and you lack knowledge of history. Either that or you are purposely lying to push your racist agenda.

Let this "kid" show you how:

13 hours ago, CdnFox said:

So... that's not what sociopath means. I'm sure you think i'ts a really bad word and so you're using it as an insult but no - a sociopath is something else. If i were a sociopath i wouldn't care about the war either way and wouldn't talk to you about it because it would be of no interest to me and no effect on my life.

You probably meant that i should be more empathetic to the side you prefer.  But it's not a question of empathy, it's a question of putting an end to this war once and for all.

Symptoms of a sociopath may include disregard for others, a lack of empathy, and dishonest behavior.

Say cheese, sociopath.

13 hours ago, CdnFox said:

It started on October 7th.  On that day, Hamas decided to commit an act of war.  The next day Israel declared war in response,  The citizens of Gaza are currently being blown into bite sized pieces as Israel prosecutes that war against their country, and that will continue till one side or the other surrenders or is completely defeated.

No. 

You can't go one post without spreading misinformation. 

Israel is an occupying force and the occupied are permitted under international law to defend themselves.

Which is what Hamas did. However, there are rules under international law that we must abide by. One of them being that the targeting of civilians is not okay.

Not okay for Hamas to do it, and not okay for Israel to do it.

Of course, just like other slimy Zionists, you play the double standard game. You want Zionists to be above the law.

Majority of the world, including a large number of Jews will no longer stand for that.

 

13 hours ago, CdnFox said:

That is a simple truth. 

The truth stops when you press reply.

13 hours ago, CdnFox said:

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by marcus

[WestCanMan]

14 hours ago, marcus said:

If you want to be taken seriously, then you need to do two things:

1) Stop showing a sociopath's tendencies, by excusing 6000 innocent children being blown into pieces by Israel.

2) You should try being honest. This did not start on October 7th.

Your way of thinking should not be normalized. 

Stop quoting Palestinian propaganda. How old are you?

Do you remember when the Palestinians' own rocket nearly hit a hospital, so they instantly told the whole world: "The Israelis just blew up our hospital, killing 500 people!"?

In case you intentionally ignored the updates: it was a Palestinian rocket, and no one was even killed by it. It didn't even hit the hospital. 

So guess what their total of "6000 innocent children" means, marcus...

For starters it means that probably about 500 hundred children were killed because the Palestinian terrorists forced them to stay in harm's way.

It also means that, maybe killing Israeli women and children wasn't such a great idea? Maybe burning children to death wasn't a good idea? Can you say "The Palestinians shouldn't have intentionally burned children to death"? Can you say that, you greasy terrorist supporter?

FYI countries like Iran pay Palestinian terrorists to force women and children to stay in the areas where Hamas is firing rockets from, for two reasons:

1) to be used as meat-shields, so that the Israelis always have to say "Look out, we're targeting that area", giving Palestinian terrorists time to get away

2) to die for photo ops

Honest to God, Iran wants children to be killed by Israeli rockets to justify a genocide against Israel. That's who you're siding with here.

Even some of the other terrorist supporters hate Iran buddy. Not you though. Iran's talking points are your talking points.

 

When did this "start" marcus? I'd love to see your bullshit date, where "nothing previous to this one moment in time counts".

Do you have a similar timeline for Pakistan marcus, or are you a religious bigot? Pakistan was only formed 9 months earlier, and between 8-10M Sikhs and Hindus were forced from their homes when Pakistan was created. Over 1M were murdered. Should they still be at war? Are you advocating for the survivors to get their homes back? Are you arguing for them to get reparations? What are you doing marcus?

I think that you're doing nothing, because you don't care, because you're just a religious bigot. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by WestCanMan

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

Fu ck you too asswipe.

Awwww muffin -  I understand.  I"m told racism and bigotry can really take a lot out of you, so now you're cranky. Take an asprin and a red bull, you'll be fine.

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

You don’t see how ignorant and pretentious you sound painting everyone with the same brush and referring to a number of posters as “you people”.

"You arseholes" is probably more appropriate, we'll go with that from now on. And it's directed at hard-right hard-boiled chuds.

Quote

No one said Palestinians can’t have a country except Palestinians.

No it's just you arseholes who say that.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

"You arseholes" is probably more appropriate, we'll go with that from now on. And it's directed at hard-right hard-boiled chuds.

No it's just you arseholes who say that.

Then you don’t know the history.  Attitudes like yours are why Canada has gone downhill.  You don’t understand what the forces for good are.

[eyeball]

44 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Attitudes like yours are why Canada has gone downhill.

Canada was never on a hill I'm afraid. Its still where it's always been.

So I wonder how the release of information related to how and why so many Nazi refugees were allowed into Canada is going?

Calls to release the complete reports of Canada’s mid-1980s inquiry into Nazi war criminals intensify after political debacle in Ottawa

The Canadian Jewish News

https://thecjn.ca/news/calls-to-release-the-complete-reports-of-canadas-mid-1980s-inquiry-into-nazi-war-criminals-intensify-after-political-debacle-in-ottawa/

[marcus]

7 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Stop quoting Palestinian propaganda. How old are you?

Do you remember when the Palestinians' own rocket nearly hit a hospital, so they instantly told the whole world: "The Israelis just blew up our hospital, killing 500 people!"?

In case you intentionally ignored the updates: it was a Palestinian rocket, and no one was even killed by it. It didn't even hit the hospital. 

So guess what their total of "6000 innocent children" means, marcus...

For starters it means that probably about 500 hundred children were killed because the Palestinian terrorists forced them to stay in harm's way.

 

How did you come to 500? Why are you so sure about those numbers?

Israel has attacked Gaza 5 other times since 2006. None have been as devastating as this attack, however, something similar happened. They indiscriminatory killed civilians, the health ministry released numbers, and get this, at the end, their numbers were verified to be pretty much the same as the count given by them during the attacks.

Since they have been consistent with the numbers in the past,  this means that they don't have a habit of inflating the numbers.

Here is information on how the numbers are verified later on.

What is the source of the data?

Information about occupation and conflict-related casualties is regularly collected by OCHA field staff and entered into OCHA’s Protection of Civilians database, following review and verification. As a rule, for an incident to be entered into the database it needs to be validated by at least two independent and reliable sources. Exceptions to this rule include incidents resulting in Israeli injuries, where information is typically based on media reports.

Although Gaza has been under Hamas’ rule since 2007, this is the first time that the reliability of the enclave’s health ministry has been so prominently called into question. News outlets and international organizations and agencies have long relied on Israeli and Palestinian government sources for casualty figures. While they do so partly because they are unable to independently verify these figures themselves, it’s also because these statistics have proven accurate in the past. “They have access methodologically to sources of information that nobody else has—access to data from morgues, from hospitals—and that’s ultimately going to be the most reliable way to count casualties,”

...

“there have been no large discrepancies between those numbers and the numbers produced by the Gaza health ministry.”

Source

7 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

It also means that, maybe killing Israeli women and children wasn't such a great idea? Maybe burning children to death wasn't a good idea? Can you say "The Palestinians shouldn't have intentionally burned children to death"? Can you say that, you greasy terrorist supporter?

Really? "Greasy terrorist supporter"?

I neither support Hamas or Israel. So I am not a terrorist supporter.

Listen: I am going to let that comment slide and approach you without going off on you - Let me explain to you where I stand, and if you're going to ignore it and misrepresent who I am and where I stand, then there is no point in having a debate.

Numerous times I have said "fxck Hamas". Do a search in the forum and you will see this. I have said that BOTH Hamas and Israel should go in front of the International Criminal Court, like so many others have had in the past, and let them bring their own defense of the accusations.

If they have broken human rights laws that all countries are signatory to, then they must be punished.

7 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

When did this "start" marcus? I'd love to see your bullshit date, where "nothing previous to this one moment in time counts".

This started when the English thought it was okay to allow a foreign group of people to start the displacement of the indigenous Palestinians in favour of European Jews. It started when instead of allowing the European Jews to move to England and United States, they created laws to forbid them, and instead they shipped them over to (British Mandate) Palestine.

That's when it all started.

Before you bring in the tired old comments about the land belonging to the Jews, have a listen to two Jews talking about that topic. One is a rabid Zionist and another is a child of holocaust survivor and a scholar who specializes in that region.

 

7 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

I think that you're doing nothing, because you don't care, because you're just a religious bigot. 

I may be considered an agnostic, as science has not been able to answer so many questions, but I am definitely far from having any religious affiliation.

So I hope you take that comment and avoid misrepresenting who I am or what I believe in going forward. Is that something you can do?

Edited November 26, 2023 by marcus

[OftenWrong]

On 11/22/2023 at 1:06 AM, eyeball said:

Oh well, permawar it is I guess.

Now you're getting it right

[WestCanMan]

14 hours ago, marcus said:

How did you come to 500? Why are you so sure about those numbers?

It's definitely not 500 and I have no clue what the death toll actually is, but Hamas are liars so their totals are meaningless. It's an absolute fact that you cannot believe a single word that Hamas says.

Quote

Israel has attacked Gaza 5 other times since 2006. None have been as devastating as this attack, however, something similar happened. They indiscriminatory killed civilians, the health ministry released numbers, and get this, at the end, their numbers were verified to be pretty much the same as the count given by them during the attacks.

And on how many different occasions has Hamas launched rockets into Israel in that time frame? How man times have they killed Israelis? How many times have the Israelis had to thwart terrorist attacks?

We don't even know the answer to that last one, because a thwarted terrorist attack looks exactly like a random attack by cops to the unaided eye. If it wasn't for all of the "successful" terrorist attacks that the Palestinians commit, and the warm reception that they receive from Hamas supporters, Palestinians, Iranians, and Congresswomen, we wouldn't know for sure if there actually were Palestinian terrorists. 

When exactly has Israel "indiscriminately" killed Palestinians? Do you have a date and location?

Quote

Since they have been consistent with the numbers in the past,  this means that they don't have a habit of inflating the numbers.

They literally told the whole world: "Israelis bombed our hospital, and killed 500 of our people", when their hospital wasn't even hit. The story was 1,000% fake from every angle, and they issued it as a declarative statement. They're completely out of credibility for making declarative statements about what actually happened anywhere right now.

Quote

Here is information on how the numbers are verified later on.

What is the source of the data?

Information about occupation and conflict-related casualties is regularly collected by OCHA field staff and entered into OCHA’s Protection of Civilians database, following review and verification. As a rule, for an incident to be entered into the database it needs to be validated by at least two independent and reliable sources. Exceptions to this rule include incidents resulting in Israeli injuries, where information is typically based on media reports.

Although Gaza has been under Hamas’ rule since 2007, this is the first time that the reliability of the enclave’s health ministry has been so prominently called into question. News outlets and international organizations and agencies have long relied on Israeli and Palestinian government sources for casualty figures. While they do so partly because they are unable to independently verify these figures themselves, it’s also because these statistics have proven accurate in the past. “They have access methodologically to sources of information that nobody else has—access to data from morgues, from hospitals—and that’s ultimately going to be the most reliable way to count casualties,”

...

“there have been no large discrepancies between those numbers and the numbers produced by the Gaza health ministry.”

 Guess what number of dead babies/children is acceptable... Zero

The number of babies that were intentionally killed by burning or gunfire is even less than that. There's a special place in hell for the people of Hamas. 

I don't honestly understand the concept of using dead babies to achieve political goals. I know it's a thing, I just can't understand it. I can't fathom how much a person would have to love their God to wish death on their own babies just to achieve a political victory. 

Quote

Really? "Greasy terrorist supporter"?

I neither support Hamas or Israel. So I am not a terrorist supporter.

Support of the 75 years of terrorism and attacks against Israel is tacit support of terrorism and fanatical religious bigotry.

There are between 500 million and a billion muslims who lose sleep over the 108 victims of Deir Yassin who couldn't squeeze out a crocodile tear for the 1,000,000-plus Hindus and Sikhs that died in Pakistan during partition.

The Hindu religion goes back as far as 4000 BC in that region for sure, maybe even as much 10,000 years. A minimum of 8 million people were forced to flee their ancestral homeland in India or face death by burning, machete, bullets, hanging, beheading, etc. 

People who don't care about Pakistan's right to exist don't get to cry to me about the Palestinians. At the most, 700,000 of them were evacuated, less than 1,000 were killed, and that follows centuries of senseless slaughters of Jews in the ME. 

It sucks for Palestinians, but there are over a dozen countries where they can move to where they can inflict their violent bigotry on minority populations without fear of facing prosecution. 

Quote

Listen: I am going to let that comment slide and approach you without going off on you - Let me explain to you where I stand, and if you're going to ignore it and misrepresent who I am and where I stand, then there is no point in having a debate.

Numerous times I have said "fxck Hamas". Do a search in the forum and you will see this. I have said that BOTH Hamas and Israel should go in front of the International Criminal Court, like so many others have had in the past, and let them bring their own defense of the accusations.

If they have broken human rights laws that all countries are signatory to, then they must be punished.

Hamas is Palestine. They were voted in with over 70% support. There are still enough Hamas supporters to rule the population. 

Why are there still refugee camps there after 75 years? How is that possible? I'll tell you how:

THE WHOLE POINT OF PEOPLE BEING IN "REFUGEE CAMPS" AFTER ALL THIS TIME IS TO FOMENT HATRED AGINST ISRAEL. PERIOD. 

Generations of Palestinian children were forced to grow up in hell on earth just because muslims can't accept that Jews would ever have their own country in the holy land. That's the only reason. They could have re-settled that many people ten times over. It happened in just a few months when islamic state was committing genocide in Levant. More than ten times as many Hindus and Sikhs re-settled outside of Pakistan in 1947. 

Thye keep that miserable shit going just to get a bit of dirt. Dirt is more important to those people than lives. 

Hamas is funded by Qatar and Iran and those guys just want the hatred to keep going AT ALL COSTS. EVEN AT THE COST OF CHILDREN'S LIVES. That's why Al-Jazeera is there filming the blood and fanning the flames.  

Quote

This started when the English thought it was okay to allow a foreign group of people to start the displacement of the indigenous Palestinians in favour of European Jews.

C'mon marcus, you know that literally everything is wrong with that statement:

1) It wasn't just the English. It was the UN. They voted 33-13 in favour creating Israel. 

2) They were not "European Jews". Almost a million Jews left other ME countries to come to Israel - i.e. Arab/Semitic Jews - with many of them having been forced out of the ME countries that they left. Furthermore, among the "European Jews" that you cite, the vast majority had been forced out of the ME at some point in the past, whether that was by the Romans, other empires, by the Ottomans, or by the Arab states that were created after the Ottoman Empire was driven out.

3) Even before 1948 Jews were being forced out of ME nations that had sided with Nazis between the mid-30s and 1945. If you click this link you'll be taken to a list I made (from a wiki page) of the various attacks on Jewish communities in ME countries over 130 years before 1948, some of them massacring as many as 700 people - 7 times as many as in Deir Yassin. Some might be bigger, I couldn't find out how many Jews were killed when places like Tabriz were attacked, Tlemcen, etc.

Jewish communities were destroyed and/or the Jews were forced out, force-converted to islam, etc on many of those occasions.

The islamic nations that incite hatred against Israel to this day were all guilty of some form of religious bigotry against the Jews at some point before Israel existed. The righteous wrath that they love to show falls flat if you shine a bit of sunlight on it.  

 

When it comes down to Israel/Palestine:

1) The Jews faced genocides and whatnot for centuries at the hands of Christians and muslims before 1948, 

2) The Jews literally have nowhere on earth to go if they leave Israel

3) The Jews have always sought peace since 1948, and their partition was far kinder and gentler than the Pakistani partition just 9 months earlier

4) The stated goal of Hamas and other anti-Israeli muslim groups/nations varies from "Elimination of Jews from the river to the sea" to "extermination of every last Jew worldwide. 

As long as you're supporting Gazans you're supporting, at the very least, the violent end to the nation of Israel and all of the bloodshed that goes along with it. 

 

Bothsidism here is actually a call for an eventual genocide. Maybe not in 2023, or in our lifetimes, but definitely at some point in the future. As long as people support the notion that action against Israel is always justified, or somewhat justified, and that Palestinians need to remain in refugee cams indefinitely until the Jews are cleared out of Israel, the threat of genocide will always be very real.

A complete refusal to condone violence/terrorism/the dismantling of water pipes to create rockets, etc is the only reasonable solution. 

Ideally we'd all outgrow religion at some point, but when you look at Cardi B, Madonna, etc, you can also make the case that human societies don't do very well in the total absence of religion. I don't know what the answer is but it sure as hell isn't Judaism or Islam. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by WestCanMan

[I am Groot]

On 11/24/2023 at 1:10 PM, eyeball said:

Negotiating and making peace with the group that isn't dedicated to that - secular left-wing Palestinians.

There are none still alive in Gaza.

You realize also that Hamas has controlled the school curriculum for 17 years, right? And it teaches that martyrdom is the highest calling. There are videos of kindergarten graduates dressed as suicide bombers and terrorists chanting anti-Israeli songs. Nor is the curriculum under the PA in the West Bank much better.

Palestinians are being raised almost from birth to hate, loathe and despise Jews and Israelis.

On 11/24/2023 at 8:22 PM, eyeball said:

You have no way of knowing that and I'm betting like the division in Israel and Palestine and here and just about everywhere nowadays it's half and half right wing and left wing.

You continue to see things through the eyes of Western culture and values. You don't understand people who are religious so discount it.

[marcus]

25 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

It's definitely not 500 and I have no clue what the death toll actually is, but Hamas are liars so their totals are meaningless. It's an absolute fact that you cannot believe a single word that Hamas says.

And on how many different occasions has Hamas launched rockets into Israel in that time frame? How man times have they killed Israelis? How many times have the Israelis had to thwart terrorist attacks?

We don't even know the answer to that last one, because a thwarted terrorist attack looks exactly like a random attack by cops to the unaided eye. If it wasn't for all of the "successful" terrorist attacks that the Palestinians commit, and the warm reception that they receive from Hamas supporters, Palestinians, Iranians, and Congresswomen, we wouldn't know for sure if there actually were Palestinian terrorists. 

When exactly has Israel "indiscriminately" killed Palestinians? Do you have a date and location?

They literally told the whole world: "Israelis bombed our hospital, and killed 500 of our people", when their hospital wasn't even hit. The story was 1,000% fake from every angle, and they issued it as a declarative statement. They're completely out of credibility for making declarative statements about what actually happened anywhere right now.

 Guess what number of dead babies/children is acceptable... Zero

The number of babies that were intentionally killed by burning or gunfire is even less than that. There's a special place in hell for the people of Hamas. 

I don't honestly understand the concept of using dead babies to achieve political goals. I know it's a thing, I just can't understand it. I can't fathom how much a person would have to love their God to wish death on their own babies just to achieve a political victory. 

Support of the 75 years of terrorism and attacks against Israel is tacit support of terrorism and fanatical religious bigotry.

There are between 500 million and a billion muslims who lose sleep over the 108 victims of Deir Yassin who couldn't squeeze out a crocodile tear for the 1,000,000-plus Hindus and Sikhs that died in Pakistan during partition.

The Hindu religion goes back as far as 4000 BC in that region for sure, maybe even as much 10,000 years. A minimum of 8 million people were forced to flee their ancestral homeland in India or face death by burning, machete, bullets, hanging, beheading, etc. 

People who don't care about Pakistan's right to exist don't get to cry to me about the Palestinians. At the most, 700,000 of them were evacuated, less than 1,000 were killed, and that follows centuries of senseless slaughters of Jews in the ME. 

It sucks for Palestinians, but there are over a dozen countries where they can move to where they can inflict their violent bigotry on minority populations without fear of facing prosecution. 

Hamas is Palestine. They were voted in with over 70% support. There are still enough Hamas supporters to rule the population. 

Why are there still refugee camps there after 75 years? How is that possible? I'll tell you how:

THE WHOLE POINT OF PEOPLE BEING IN "REFUGEE CAMPS" AFTER ALL THIS TIME IS TO FOMENT HATRED AGINST ISRAEL. PERIOD. 

Generations of Palestinian children were forced to grow up in hell on earth just because muslims can't accept that Jews would ever have their own country in the holy land. That's the only reason. They could have re-settled that many people ten times over. It happened in just a few months when islamic state was committing genocide in Levant. More than ten times as many Hindus and Sikhs re-settled outside of Pakistan in 1947. 

Thye keep that miserable shit going just to get a bit of dirt. Dirt is more important to those people than lives. 

Hamas is funded by Qatar and Iran and those guys just want the hatred to keep going AT ALL COSTS. EVEN AT THE COST OF CHILDREN'S LIVES. That's why Al-Jazeera is there filming the blood and fanning the flames.  

C'mon marcus, you know that literally everything is wrong with that statement:

1) It wasn't just the English. It was the UN. They voted 33-13 in favour creating Israel. 

2) They were not "European Jews". Almost a million Jews left other ME countries to come to Israel - i.e. Arab/Semitic Jews - with many of them having been forced out of the ME countries that they left. Furthermore, among the "European Jews" that you cite, the vast majority had been forced out of the ME at some point in the past, whether that was by the Romans, other empires, by the Ottomans, or by the Arab states that were created after the Ottoman Empire was driven out.

3) Even before 1948 Jews were being forced out of ME nations that had sided with Nazis between the mid-30s and 1945. If you click this link you'll be taken to a list I made (from a wiki page) of the various attacks on Jewish communities in ME countries over 130 years before 1948, some of them massacring as many as 700 people - 7 times as many as in Deir Yassin. Some might be bigger, I couldn't find out how many Jews were killed when places like Tabriz were attacked, Tlemcen, etc.

Jewish communities were destroyed and/or the Jews were forced out, force-converted to islam, etc on many of those occasions.

The islamic nations that incite hatred against Israel to this day were all guilty of some form of religious bigotry against the Jews at some point before Israel existed. The righteous wrath that they love to show falls flat if you shine a bit of sunlight on it.  

 

When it comes down to Israel/Palestine:

1) The Jews faced genocides and whatnot for centuries at the hands of Christians and muslims before 1948, 

2) The Jews literally have nowhere on earth to go if they leave Israel

3) The Jews have always sought peace since 1948, and their partition was far kinder and gentler than the Pakistani partition just 9 months earlier

4) The stated goal of Hamas and other anti-Israeli muslim groups/nations varies from "Elimination of Jews from the river to the sea" to "extermination of every last Jew worldwide. 

As long as you're supporting Gazans you're supporting, at the very least, the violent end to the nation of Israel and all of the bloodshed that goes along with it. 

 

Bothsidism here is actually a call for an eventual genocide. Maybe not in 2023, or in our lifetimes, but definitely at some point in the future. As long as people support the notion that action against Israel is always justified, or somewhat justified, and that Palestinians need to remain in refugee cams indefinitely until the Jews are cleared out of Israel, the threat of genocide will always be very real.

A complete refusal to condone violence/terrorism/the dismantling of water pipes to create rockets, etc is the only reasonable solution. 

Ideally we'd all outgrow religion at some point, but when you look at Cardi B, Madonna, etc, you can also make the case that human societies don't do very well in the total absence of religion. I don't know what the answer is but it sure as hell isn't Judaism or Islam. 

First, I appreciate the respectful tone. Second, I think it's very difficult to debate this topic, when we both have different narratives that we base our views on. 

Having studied this area of the world for decades, and having had conversations with people from both sides, I feel very confident in my perspective. However, I am always willing to learn if someone is able to show me where I am wrong, or what I am missing.

So please go ahead and give me some reading/viewing material. Because it's important to backup what we say with citations to respectable sources.

I'll start. Would you be willing to watch the following and let me know your thoughts? It touches on the refugee question. By the way, these refugees are part of the original 700,000 Palestinians who were driven their homes in what is now Israel. The right if return to their homes is still part of international law and resolutions 242 and 181.

Again, share any of your sources, so I can understand your perspective better.

Let me know your thoughts on this. I hope you're able up watch it:

 

https://youtu.be/MknerYjob0w?si=EUO-tdGe24H5GEmq

 

 

[eyeball]

18 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

You continue to see things through the eyes of Western culture and values. You don't understand people who are religious so discount it.

I'm viewing this though my own eyes as informed by secular progressive Palestinians and Israelis. 

I don't pay to much attention to what religious people think say or do at all. They have little to nothing useful to add.

[CdnFox]

29 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I'm viewing this though my own eyes as informed by secular progressive Palestinians and Israelis. 

Whom  you've never met.

[I am Groot]

29 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I'm viewing this though my own eyes as informed by secular progressive Palestinians and Israelis. 

I don't pay to much attention to what religious people think say or do at all. They have little to nothing useful to add.

But they're in charge. All decisions are made by them.

I'm sure you can find a few 'secular progressive' people but they have no authority, no power, no influence.

Half the population of the territories are under 18. They've been brought up since birth to hate. Without contradiction. It's in their schoolbooks, their television, their newspapers, and in the words of their parents.

Secular progressives? LOL. Damned few on the ground.

[I am Groot]

48 minutes ago, marcus said:

By the way, these refugees are part of the original 700,000 Palestinians who were driven their homes in what is now Israel. The right if return to their homes is still part of international law and resolutions 242 and 181.

Resolutions that intend to destroy Israel.

I'm sure you pay equal attention, btw, to the million Jews driven out of their homes in Arab countries nearby. Unlike most of the Palestinians, they really WERE driven out. The majority of the Palestinians just fled on their own because of the fighting.

Edited November 26, 2023 by I am Groot

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Whom  you've never met.

Cite? ?

You make the most ridiculous claims that you can't ever possibly prove.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

I'm sure you can find a few 'secular progressive' people but they have no authority, no power, no influence.

Well no not after you've been assassinated.

If at first you fail you try try again.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

Half the population of the territories are under 18. They've been brought up since birth to hate. Without contradiction. It's in their schoolbooks, their television, their newspapers, and in the words of their parents.

Yes well, usually you have to bring in counsellors and experts at dealing with shell-shocked indoctrinated kids.

You figure it's just easier to kill them - maybe get lucky and hit a couple of terrorists in the process?

Oh, right....

[eyeball]

On 11/25/2023 at 8:26 AM, Zeitgeist said:

I’m well aware of Chomsky’s narratives.

You've got it wrong Chomsky was reporting on the narrative that Israel's ambassador to the United Nations Abba Eban advised people to adopt.

 

On 11/25/2023 at 8:26 AM, Zeitgeist said:

I would beware of the ways that the word “Zionism” has been used to promote antisemitism.

If you say so, I'm simply pointing out how Zionism regards any criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism even when Jews are doing the criticizing. This blows much of the lid off the racist connotations attached to term - especially when support for Palestinians is political.

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

Cite? ?

 

Sure - i talked to all of them and they say they've never met you  

Quote

You make the most ridiculous claims that you can't ever possibly prove.

And yet i'm correct.    I'm just that gifted

Where as you make the most retarded claims that are easy to disprove.  I'd say you have the bigger problem

[eyeball]

8 hours ago, CdnFox said:

And yet i'm correct.    I'm just that gifted

You're pretty special alright.

[WestCanMan]

17 hours ago, marcus said:

First, I appreciate the respectful tone. Second, I think it's very difficult to debate this topic, when we both have different narratives that we base our views on. 

Having studied this area of the world for decades, and having had conversations with people from both sides, I feel very confident in my perspective. However, I am always willing to learn if someone is able to show me where I am wrong, or what I am missing.

So please go ahead and give me some reading/viewing material. Because it's important to backup what we say with citations to respectable sources.

I'll start. Would you be willing to watch the following and let me know your thoughts? It touches on the refugee question. By the way, these refugees are part of the original 700,000 Palestinians who were driven their homes in what is now Israel. The right if return to their homes is still part of international law and resolutions 242 and 181.

Again, share any of your sources, so I can understand your perspective better.

Let me know your thoughts on this. I hope you're able up watch it:

 

https://youtu.be/MknerYjob0w?si=EUO-tdGe24H5GEmq

Thanks for the polite reply. That's in short supply here.

Maybe you should do more posting here so that liberal positions can be presented in a more reasonable and intelligent manner. On this forum it's like the libs are out to make themselves look bad.

Just so you know I did give that video a chance, even though it's from AJ+ (Al Jazeera+, out of Qatar, a state sponsor of terrorism), but I only got about 3 minutes in. 

I'm not sure how familiar you are with them, but AJ+ is a FB page that spent most of 2015 talking about one group of 4 Hindus who killed a muslim girl, and they 'overlooked' the much smaller story of islamic state beheading journalists, burning people to death in cages, and committing genocide against Christians and Yazidis.

They will tell stories about what allegedly happened to one black woman in one backwoods hick town in Georgia in 1847 and act like that's what every white person in the US did this morning. 

AJ+ runs a few fluff stories to lend the impression that they're really good guys, then the rest is propaganda. They do some anti-Trump stuff to reel in the CNN crowd and they promote islam at the expense of all others. 

I'm aware that the Israelis are not all that kind to muslims, even the ones that live within Israel itself are not always treated very well, depending on whom you talk to: 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/arab-israeli-citizens-cmd-intl/index.html

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4270274-the-israeli-towns-where-jews-and-arabs-live-side-by-side/

Some of our best friends are Christians from Amman and Beirut (he's dead now, cancer) and we still spend Christmas Eve with their family. They have a lot of muslim friends here for some reason, but that wasn't the case back in the ME. I get most of my ME info from them. I say what I heard here and there, they almost always correct me. 

They had an "interesting" life to say the least. On two different occasions they had to jump in their car with almost nothing and go start a new life somewhere far away. The first time was when they left Beirut, I don't remember what the second place was. In the ME they call that "Going on holidays". He'd laugh, she'd say "whatever", but obviously it was no joke back there. 

Anyways, one of their friends has a really nice son named Zeid (they pronounce it Zed), who we met a couple times, who lived in Tel Aviv until a few years ago. He lives in Jordan now, but he said that 'Tel Aviv isn't like the rest of Israel'. They thought of the rest of the country as a bit of an overly religious old-skool joke. 

I don't know what it would be like there now, no doubt it would be much worse than before. 

Old-skool religion sucks imo. I'm an atheist myself but for some reason most of my friends are occasional-to-weekly church goers (Christian). I think of religion as a weakness myself, but it gives some people great conviction (to do bad things).

Whatever. Religion is harder to understand that women. 

[I am Groot]

16 hours ago, eyeball said:

Yes well, usually you have to bring in counsellors and experts at dealing with shell-shocked indoctrinated kids.

You figure it's just easier to kill them - maybe get lucky and hit a couple of terrorists in the process?

Oh, right....

And you figure it's okay to let them slaughter and rape people as long as they're Jews.

There. We're both reducing each other's positions to hyperbolic stupidity.

[Army Guy]

Reading material

These are the Palestinians a large amount of Canadians support and protest for...take a look at some of the numbers 

17.2 % of those polled believe in a 2 state solution....The one the world has been trying to establish for decades...

74.7 percent believe in a one state solution where Israel does not exist...

59.3 strongly support in the Hamas attacks in Israel oct 7, with 15.7 supporting it some what....well over 75 % of those polled support the terrorist attacks on oct 7.... 

79.1 % of those polled support Hamas terrorist network,  while in the west bank that grew to 95.4 percent...

I get it it is a poll that one should take with a grain of salt... but i remember early stating that that majority of Palestinian support Hamas and their attacks, and while not inclusive, it is pretty damning...

Palestinians are the impediment to peace, not Israel's war: poll | National Post

Jesse Kline: Murderous jihad didn't begin with Israel (msn.com)

 

 

Quote

 

A Nov. 14 survey by a West Bank polling firm asked Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank what kind of state they wanted to establish: one state for two peoples garnered the support of 5.4 per cent of respondents; a two-state solution was supported by 17.2 per cent; but the clear-winner, with 74.7 per cent in favour, was a “Palestinian state from the river to the sea.”

 

A reminder for those who haven’t been on a pro-Palestinian march recently: this phrase means a Palestinian state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean — with no Israel in between.

When protesters chant, “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,” it is not, as some suggest, an aspirational cry echoing the hopes of Palestinians for freedom from Israeli occupation, it is — according to this poll — the clear expression of the genocidal intent of most Palestinians (three out of four people), who want to obliterate Israel from the map.

 

Quote

To the question, “How much do you support the military operation carried out by the Palestinian resistance led by Hamas on October 7th?” 59.3 per cent supported it strongly, with another 15.7 per cent of people supporting it somewhat — a combined total of 75 per cent backing the slaughter of men, women and children.

Quote

 

The Oct. 7 attacks are widely attributed to Hamas, but more specifically, it is likely that it was Hamas’s military wing, the Qassam Brigades, that carried out the raid.

And how do Palestinians view the Qassam Brigades? The poll found that 79.1 per cent of Gazans had a positive view of the organization and, in the West Bank, that grew to 95.4 per cent. As for Hamas, almost 60 per cent of Gazans had a positive view of it, with that number rocketing to 87.7 per cent in the West Bank.

 

 

 

[eyeball]

31 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

And you figure it's okay to let them slaughter and rape people as long as they're Jews.

Fu ck you too.

31 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

There. We're both reducing each other's positions to hyperbolic stupidity.

Look more carefully, I asked if you support Israel's slaughter of Gazans.  I've made it quite clear that criminals should be charged. You still have a chance to clear up whether you feel the crimes committed on Oct 7 justify the collective punishment of some 12000 people, half of them kids.

BTW has any one heard how many criminals are included in that number?