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On 11/18/2023 at 9:10 AM, eyeball said:

What sort of bizarre tangent are you on now?

JEWISH-ZIONIST TERRORISM AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF ISRAEL

JEWISH TERRORISM AGAINST BRITISH AND ARABS DID CONTRIBUTE HEAVILY TO THE REMOVAL OF THE BRITISH FROM PALESTINE, THE ABANDONMENT OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS MANDATE AND THE CREATION OF A JEWISH STATE OF ISRAEL

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/jewish-zionist-terrorism-and-establishment-israel

Yup, Jewish terrorism was absolutely a factor in this, and it can't be ignored. Likud, the Stern Gang, and Menachim Begin are names that can't be ignored if you really want to talk about terrorism in that area. 

There are a lot of ways to look at an issue, and this is definitely not just a "view from the end of your nose" issue. 

But it's also just one small part of the view from 50,000 feet.

If you want to go back and look at what happened 70 years ago, then you can't just use that as a mystical "start date", because there are a lot of things that happened prior to the 1940s that factor just as greatly into this whole equation.

That being said I'm not a "3,000 years ago" guy, because in a lot of ways, that's patently ridiculous. Judaism isn't a race of people, and the people who were Jews back then have some Christian descendants, muslim descendants, scientologists, gay atheists, etc. Some of the people who are Jews now had other ancestors of different religions 3,000 years ago. Who's to say that "ownership" of that land is tied to a religion and not to people's DNA? And who's to say that some of those people never just left Israel of their own accord, without Roman or Egyptian influence? Or if that even matters at all, because those people all had thousands of years to accumulate assets elsewhere, and I'm sure they're not giving those away for nothing at all either. 

So if we're abandoning recent history to look back, the middle of the 1900s isn't the only period that matters. 

Preceding the issue of Jewish terrorism in the '40s is the issue of how Jews were treated in Palestine and the rest of the Ottoman Empire for the previous 600 years. It's not like Palestinians weren't a part of the group that denied Jews the right to pray at Temple Mount for 1,000 years, so their own bigotry is a large factor in this: 

  • There are millions of muslims who'd be willing to go on a killing spree if Jews' feet even touch Temple Mount, let alone pray there. You can't understand this issue without taking that type of bigotry into consideration. We're not dealing with people who can share, we're dealing with people who'd rather kill people than let their shadow defile some stones. 

More Jewish civilians died at the hands of islamic religious bigotry in the 70 years from 1878-1948 than Palestinian civilians at the hands of Israelis between 1940-2023. And the vast majority of people killed by the Israelis (about 100,000 total) were terrorists or soldiers who attacked Israel, and that's a different mathematical equation. Those lives aren't worth 1 for 1. Killing a terrorist, be they Jewish or Muslim, isn't as bad as killing a kid in their own bed, and I hope that we can all agree on that much. 

An aside to the issue of Jewish terrorism is whether or not it can be 'forgiven', or at least 'forgotten', 'put behind us', or whatever you want to call it, like the genocides committed by the Pakistanis were by every muslim on earth

  • I can respect the fact that some Palestinians have a legitimate axe to grind with the Israelis, but Iran definitely doesn't because Iran doesn't have an axe to grind with Pakistan, and the only difference is religion. If Iran can accept Pakistan then it's time for them to move on with the Israelis as well. I just absolutely don't accept the premise that the deaths of less than 1,000 muslims in 1948 matters more than the deaths of over 1,000,000 Hindus and Sikhs in 1947 did. That's not a thing. If Iran can accept Pakistan's right to exist, they should accept Israel's right to exist as well. 
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19 hours ago, Canadian_Cavalier said:

Actually, I don't really have any love for Palestine. Any support for them is based strictly on my sense of outrage over zionist ethnic cleansing, sympathy for them as a group surrounded by violent colonialists who want to displace them, and my strong feelings that a country/person has to right to self determination against a nation violating international law and building settlements in their own land

Ethnic cleansing so determined that the population of the Palestinian territories has doubled in the last 30 years.

It seems those darn Jews aren't very good at ethnic cleansing. As for calling them 'colonialists', when they've been in that region for thousands of years, that's just ignorant. 

Self-determination under Hamas means an Islamic state, and a determination to rid Israel of all Jews.

Evidently, this is something you favour.

19 hours ago, eyeball said:

The subjugation is the issue. Its just that simple.

Your neighbor hates your guts and wants to murder you and your family. And nothing is going to change his mind because it's driven by religious fanaticism. Do you want to try to control how much heavy weaponry he has at his disposal or not?

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20 hours ago, Canadian_Cavalier said:

Women are less likely to stand with Israel, dramatically so for the ones on the dating market.

  • Sadly there's a big difference between "What people think about another group of people, in general", and "How people will feel about individuals from other groups once they get to know them".
  • Women are far more likely to stand with someone who says "I respect the right of any man to defend his homeland, whether it's Iran, Germany, Uganda, Israel or Palestine" than with someone who says "I love killing Jews more than Jews love life". 
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35 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

No, they actually don't.

You're saying the process of settling is safe and benign and that Palestinians don't get killed, injured or arrested and held without charges for objecting?

Published 10. Aug 2023

Palestine Protection

Israeli settler violence and illegal takeover of Palestinian lands have forcibly transferred nearly 500 Palestinians from seven communities, over the past 20 months. Twelve families in the Ras At-Tin Bedouin community, northeast of Ramallah, fled their homes this week.

https://www.nrc.no/news/2023/august/west-bank-entire-palestinian-communities-disappeared-due-to-israeli-settler-violence/

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2 hours ago, Gaétan said:

Israeli settlers kill Palestinians every day,

no, they don't. If you have to lie to make your point you don't have a point.

Quote

so Hamas has assumed that Israel must repay their debts.

No, they didn't.  They just "'love killing jews more than the jews love life" as they have stated.

There's no justification for this.  It's pretty obvious that they thought they'd kill a bunch of jews - israel would attack and they'd hide behind their people, and they believed that after a few thousand of their people were killed they'd cry to the international community and get all kinds of poltical points to use against Israel.

I mean - that's what's always happened in the past.

But their attack this time didn't kill a few people or a few dozen - it killed thousands.

And the international community isn't coming to Gaza's rescue this time. And they are RIGHTFULLY getting the shit pounded out of them.

This is 100 percent Gaza's fault - and this is what happens when you CHOOSE not to have peace but DEMAND war.

And again - i notice you can't say a single thing against the killing of the jews. 

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1 hour ago, eyeball said:

You're saying the process of settling is safe and benign and that Palestinians don't get killed, injured or arrested and held without charges for objecting?

LOL. Who do you think you're playing games with?

No one here thinks much of the settlers, who are, in the main, religious zealots.

But you've changed the goal sticks quite a bit from them acting the same as Hamas to asking if Palestinians don't get injured, killed or arrested. 

I'm sure they do. But if you can find me a few cases of settlers descending on a Palestinian camp and raping, torturing and murdering everyone they find, be my guest.

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3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

 

But their attack this time didn't kill a few people or a few dozen - it killed thousands.

 

Israel's settlers and soldiers kill one or two Palestinians every day, after 750 days Israel owes them a debt of a thousand lives. Who pay for that? nobody, So they took the law into their own hands. Tooth for tooth is a Moses law that is the basic of justice of all countries. Jesus changed that but nobody listen.

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39 minutes ago, Gaétan said:

Israel's settlers and soldiers kill one or two Palestinians every day, after 750 days Israel owes them a debt of a thousand lives. Who pay for that? nobody, So they took the law into their own hands. Tooth for tooth is a Moses law that is the basic of justice of all countries. Jesus changed that but nobody listen.

well that's simply a lie as we know. At no time has the isreali govt' sent anyone at all to kill any civillians without provocation or cause as we  saw the Gazans do. So there goes your justification.

You can't justify the slaughter of thousands with lies.

And this is the problem - if you're willing to see people get killed over lies...  how can anyone around the world have any faith there could be a negotiated settlement?  you can't negotiate if people simply lie, so what's the other choice?  Continue till their military is absolutely dust, even if that means killing civillians and subjugating the whole place and going through everyone' one by one and arresting every single person who MIGHT have ties to hamas.

That's just not a good thing - but the people of gaza have to realize that they need to be honest and negotiate in good faith if they're hoping for it to end any other way.

 

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20 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

well that's simply a lie as we know. At no time has the isreali govt' sent anyone at all to kill any civillians without provocation or cause as we  saw the Gazans do. So there goes your justification.

You can't justify the slaughter of thousands with lies.

And this is the problem - if you're willing to see people get killed over lies...  how can anyone around the world have any faith there could be a negotiated settlement?  you can't negotiate if people simply lie, so what's the other choice?  Continue till their military is absolutely dust, even if that means killing civillians and subjugating the whole place and going through everyone' one by one and arresting every single person who MIGHT have ties to hamas.

That's just not a good thing - but the people of gaza have to realize that they need to be honest and negotiate in good faith if they're hoping for it to end any other way.

 

You work on overtime tonight? Go to sleep.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict_in_2023

That's a lot of killings by the Israelis and a lot of bombs fired at Israel by Hamas.

The fact that Hamas really was storing up thousands and thousands of bombs to shoot at Israeli citizens makes the Israeli police actins look reasonable.

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On 11/18/2023 at 11:06 PM, eyeball said:

Its not a nothingburger. I think it contributed to a cynical decision by Britain to support what the opposite of the White Paper Policy said - no state of Israel and no subjugation of Palestinians.

I get it that Israel exists and I'm quite certain there are and have been plenty of Palestinians who get it too.

The subjugation is the issue. Its just that simple.

It is a nothing burger, with a huge plate of nothing on the side...Before 1948 , and before the creation of the state of Israel NO Palestinians were under Israelis rule....

after Palestine and Arab forces decided to attack with the objective of pushing Israel into the sea, with all the Jews , Israel counter attacked and YES it did capture lands and homes belonging to Palestinians...but there there is NO Palestine at this time.....Palestine and the west bank came under the rule of Egypt and Jordan, later wars would see Palestine come under Israelis control until 2005....after which Israel gave full control over to the FATAH government ...which is then taken control by HAMAS in 2006... not sure where the subjugation comes from....

Battle of Gaza (2007) - Wikipedia

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3 hours ago, Army Guy said:
Quote

Hamas fighters took control of the Gaza Strip, while Fatah officials were either taken as prisoners, executed, or expelled.

Expelled from Gaza ?

That's like getting kicked out of jail. Where do you go from there that isn't an improvement? 

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6 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

south surrey.  But we're getting off track.

I think you mean north Surrey lol, but point taken. 

A lot of SS is actually considered WR by most people, even though technically it isn't. White Rock is just a tiny little area.

SS is arguably the nicest area in the entire Fraser Valley. 

ScreenShot2023-11-20at4_12_54PM.thumb.png.afda070ecc9c36fe678a5ac791226161.png

Edited by WestCanMan
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4 hours ago, Army Guy said:

It is a nothing burger, with a huge plate of nothing on the side...Before 1948 , and before the creation of the state of Israel NO Palestinians were under Israelis rule...

That's right Palestinians were only under the threat of Zionist terrorism at that point - the precursor to the IDF.

Edited by eyeball
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16 minutes ago, eyeball said:

That's right Palestinians were only under the threat of Zionist terrorists at that point - the precursor to the IDF.

Well when a self proclaimed state engages in terrorist activities, you get the horns...in this case both horns...combat operations are about to start driving south, they have already put out warnings to leave...once that operation gets started each Palestinians will get a personal phone call telling them the time and date when combat operations will be in their neighborhood ...in a few months Hamas will be a memory in Gaza, Palestinians will be able to have another election... to vote in the next generation of terrorist and this could be an annual event...and this story will continue until the people of Palestine are removed for the area...maybe BC...

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1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

Palestinians will be able to have another election... to vote in the next generation of terrorist and this could be an annual event...

?

Sad but true. 

The chance of the Gazans electing a party of decency is about 2%, and the chances of them remaining in power for more than a week are 2 in 87 trillion. 

 

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23 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

?

 and the chances of them remaining in power for more than a week are 2 in 87 trillion. 

 

I appreciate your optimism, most wouldn't give it that high a chance :)   But -seriously that does highlight a problem. Even if the gazans decide they've had enough of the whole 'war' thing and vote in moderates, they will be overun by radicals in short order.

I suspect israel intends to allow them to elect someone and then they'll just stay there providing security and protecting the new gov't and making sure nobody's building rockets for a decade or three.

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2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

...in a few months Hamas will be a memory in Gaza, Palestinians will be able to have another election... to vote in the next generation of terrorist and this could be an annual event...and this story will continue until the people of Palestine are removed for the area...maybe BC...

This story will continue for centuries and assuming climate change doesn't settle the issue it'll be settled with sticks and stones.

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On 11/18/2023 at 8:08 AM, I am Groot said:

Israel's problem is that all around their borders is the land of the barbarians. And the barbarians are religious fanatics who hate Jews. And a not insignificant number of them are more than willing to seek martyrdom by killing a Jew or two.

The religious angle is used to get Christian Zionists on the side of Israel.

This is not a religious war. This is simply a land grab.

Palestinians have been forcibly removed from their homes for decades and it is happening to this day where they are literally being kicked out of their homes by Zionist settlers.

It's mind boggling that people sit back accept this crap, because of some stupid affiliation, instead of being honest and truthful about what's happening, which is forceful removal of people from their homes and the daily human right violations.

You think what Hamas did was horrifying? 

Anyone heard of the Nakba?

Here is a glimpse of it, in their own words:

 

Edited by marcus
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Just now, marcus said:

The religious angle is used to get Christian Zionists on the side of Israel.

This is not a religious war. This is simply a land grab.

Palestinians have been forcibly removed from their homes for decades and it is happening to this day where they are literally being kicked out of their homes by Zionist settlers.

It's mind boggling that people sit back accept this crap, because of some stupid affiliation, instead of being honest and truthful about what's happening, which is forceful removal of people from their homes and the daily human right violations.

You think what Hamas did was horrifying? 

Anyone heard of the Nakba?

Here is a glimpse of it, in their own words:

 

The religious angle is used to get Christian Zionists on the side of Israel.

This is not a religious war. This is simply a land grab.

Palestinians have been forcibly removed from their homes for decades and it is happening to this day where they are literally being kicked out of their homes by Zionist settlers.

It's mind boggling that people sit back accept this crap, because of some stupid affiliation, instead of being honest and truthful about what's happening, which is forceful removal of people from their homes and the daily human right violations.

You think what Hamas did was horrifying? 

Anyone heard of the Nakba?

Here is a glimpse of it, in their own words:

 

Post all the propagada you like.  At the end of the day, on October 7th the gazans broke through the border and deliberately killed about 1500 people in cold blood without cause.

THat started a war and gazans die till they surrender or are defeated.

Don't like that? Don't start wars.

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