Complicit in War Crimes

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, Gaétan said:

How do you know that?

The same way you know that people are dying there.

[Gaétan]

Alberta MPs from the Conservative Party and the NDP will attend a video presentation of the october 7 attacks, here's what the righteous have to say: A protest is planned on the sidelines of the event. One of the organizers, Asher Kirchner, a member of Independent Jewish Voices, argues that the dissemination of such images is clearly intended to stir up a desire for revenge and justify the continuation of the massacres in Gaza.

[I am Groot]

19 hours ago, eyeball said:

Sure it is, just like Jewish anti-Semites it's the Israeli government's policies and subjugation of Palestinians that we refuse to support.

You have a group of people dedicated to killing you. What other choice do you have other than 'subjugating' them? 

I mean, the other choice, the one the Arabs would make, is clear. But I don't think the Jews want to go that way.

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, Gaétan said:

Alberta MPs from the Conservative Party and the NDP will attend a video presentation of the october 7 attacks, here's what the righteous have to say: A protest is planned on the sidelines of the event. One of the organizers, Asher Kirchner, a member of Independent Jewish Voices, argues that the dissemination of such images is clearly intended to stir up a desire for revenge and justify the continuation of the massacres in Gaza.

So a bunch of people are going to meet to see facts and information and some mor0n is unhappy about it.

And we care.... why?

Has hamas surrendered yet? Have they come out from behind the population so that the civvies can be kept safe?

No? bomb away i guess. Yawn.

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

You have a group of people dedicated to killing you. What other choice do you have other than 'subjugating' them? 

Negotiating and making peace with the group that isn't dedicated to that - secular left-wing Palestinians.

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I mean, the other choice, the one the Arabs would make, is clear. But I don't think the Jews want to go that way.

I don't know, Hamas and the hard boiled Zionists calling the shots in Israel seem to go together like peas and carrots - it's almost as if they were made for one another. 

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

Negotiating and making peace with the group that isn't dedicated to that - secular left-wing Palestinians.

 

That doesn't help you with the ones who want to kill you, and they're by far the more numerous.

[Army Guy]

On 11/21/2023 at 9:48 PM, marcus said:

Fxck Hamas.

The West Bank is under occupation as well and here is no Hamas there. I fully disagree with you that Hamas is the problem. 

It's important to note that Hamas is not the problem. They're only a symptom of a brutal occupation and treatment of Palestinians that has been going on for over 75 years.

This is not a defense of Hamas. Their leaders are corrupt, and as you say, their leaders, who sit in their mansions in Qatar and who have billions of dollars in assets don't actually give a fxck about the Palestinians. However, a few notes on Hamas, which is important to note:

1) They were originally created and funded by Israel to counter the PLO.

2) The Hamas charter, which was last updated in 2017 is not what the Israeli narrative says. The charter actually says:

16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.

17. Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine.

I would recommend looking at Likud's charter, which is fully against a Palestinian state:

The Right of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel)

a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.

 

 

Thats the easy part, is it not F*ck Hamas...and yet they are the ones with the guns and they are the ones that control everything in Gaza...including the Palestinian people...

West Bank is a shared city, encompassing Jerusalem capitol of Israel, And if you have been watching the news lately, there are plenty of Hamas terrorist in the west bank...not much difference between Fatah, and Hamas.

Yes funded when the PLO were in power another terrorist group...desperate time's call for desperate measures...

Yes the Charter was changed, not sure what your point is... directly calling for Israel destruction was not in their best interests in regards to their media image... but trust me nothing has changed....Palestine does not want a 2 state solution it wants the entire state...to do that it needs to get rid of Israel...

Basically the agreements that divided up the lands after WWI are null and void....and some how Palestine was not a state before these declarations, it did not have it's own government , and has always been under some else occupation it was nothing more than lands that were shared between Arabs, and Jews...

Today the Gaza strip is under the administration of Hamas a known terrorist group...and West bank is controlled by Israel and Fatah...

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18. The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination.

20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.

You should note the declared land includes all the lands currently called Israel... so ya they have colored up the words but they still want to remove Israelis the area....and will continue with the struggle...you know the death to all Jews

2. Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

That doesn't help you with the ones who want to kill you, and they're by far the more numerous.

You have no way of knowing that and I'm betting like the division in Israel and Palestine and here and just about everywhere nowadays it's half and half right wing and left wing.

As time goes by its clear this spat has less to do with race, religion, geography or history and way more to do with ideology.

Its also patently clear secular progressive people in Palestine and Israel are far better suited for negotiating and settling this peacefully. I think conservatives on both sides know this and because they loath the left more than anything else in existence are happy to default to finding a violent solution instead. Its how you people roll no matter what culture or religion.

The left and right might as well be different races.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

You have no way of knowing that

Go look at the streets - do you notice those demonstrations full of people demanding peace with israel? Me neither.

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and I'm betting like the division in Israel and Palestine and here and just about everywhere nowadays it's half and half right wing and left wing.

I realize everything is tribal to you, but wake up.  This isn't a left right divide.  The palestinians have made it clear time and again they want no peace with israel.  They could have HAD it if they wanted it - Israel sat down at the table and discussions were being held till the other palestinians did a deal with Hamas, whom the gaza Palestinians elected in a free and fair election.

 

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As time goes by its clear this spat has less to do with race, religion, geography or history and way more to do with ideology.

The precise opposite is true. This has nothing to do with ideology in the slightest.

And as long as people like you keep telling yourselves lies and supporting and excusing the palestinians we'll see more and more deaths.

 

 

[eyeball]

26 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

This isn't a left right divide. 

Yeah it really is, even more so over here where it's been worsening for decades.

29 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

The precise opposite is true. This has nothing to do with ideology in the slightest.

If that were true there wouldn't be anywhere near the total disagreement that exists surrounding the history or the roots of this conflict. 

The will never mind the ability to even look for common ground doesn't exist.

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Yeah it really is, even more so over here where it's been worsening for decades.

No. There is absolutely zero evidence of that. This is NOT a case of 'hamas favours the state owning the means of production while israel prefers a free and fair market.

We are not talking about differences in whether or not gov't should run a debt or have balanced budgets.

This isn't a question of whether there should be socialized medicine or not.

And it's insane to suggest it is.

This is pure unadulterated ethnic hatred and distrust.

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

f that were true there wouldn't be anywhere near the total disagreement that exists surrounding the history or the roots of this conflict. 

Of course there would. If anything that's proof i'm right. If it were just straight up ideology then nobody would care about that stuff in the slightest.   You don't hear that crap in Canada or the us, where our differences really are idelogical. Nobody's talking about what happened in 1948.  If it comes up it's a minor interesting side note, not a bone of contention. People care about what's happening right now.

If it was ideology this would be easy.

It's just good ole fashioned racism and ethnic hatred, and severe distrust on the other side.  Sorry to burst your bubble.

[marcus]

On 11/23/2023 at 3:36 PM, CdnFox said:

They've uncovered miles and miles of tunnels and destroyed significant amounts of hardware and killed numerous hamas leaders.

Worth every bomb.

According to you, the 6000+ Palestinian children ripped into pieces, heads blown apart are worth the few Hamas members killed.

Your support of inhumanity explains a lot. That's how zionists roll.

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by marcus

[CdnFox]

4 minutes ago, marcus said:

According to you, the 6000+ Palestinian children ripped into pieces, heads blown apart are worth the few Hamas members killed.

Yup. If you don't stamp them out now they'll just kill more people.

The weird thing is according to you allowing guys who happily slaughter civillians get away is worth a few thousand israeli deaths - AND you also believe it's fine for these hamas guys to hide under their women and children and cause their deaths.

Fact is you cannot let the bad guys hold people as hostages in a military situation. Otherwise you just encourage them to do it more and more.  Kill them anyway, take the hit, and the next batch will realize that it's not such an effective idea and HOPEFULLY the citizens will realize it's not much fun letting hamas build it's misssile launchers and tunnels around your schools and hospitals.

8 minutes ago, marcus said:

Your support of inhumanity explains a lot. That's how zionists roll.

Your support for terrorists who slaughter innocents and hold their own people hostage explains more. That's how scumbag terrorists roll.

You don't give a single crap about the people getting killed.   If you did you'd speak out against hamas who's responsible for it. All you care about is being mad at israelis.  Well - you're free to do what you want but make no mistake - that woudl make YOU the heartless scumbag.

[marcus]

16 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Yup. If you don't stamp them out now they'll just kill more people.

You being okay with killing over 6000 children is inhumane and disgusting.

16 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

The weird thing is according to you allowing guys who happily slaughter civillians get away is worth a few thousand israeli deaths

No I don't.

I also don't think Israel should get away for killing 100 times more Palestinian civilians, which has been going on well before Oct. 7th.

I don't think Israel should get away with turning off electricity, water and food to the occupied Gaza.

I also don't think Israel should get away with their other crimes, which include land annexation, kidnapping children and putting them through military courts, and then held without due process.

I think both Israel and Hamas should stand in front of International Court of Justice and pay for their crimes. Just like the Nazis did in the Nuremberg trial. 

What about you? Do you believe Israel and Hamas should go through trials?

Edited November 25, 2023 by marcus

[CdnFox]

51 minutes ago, marcus said:

You being okay with killing over 6000 children is inhumane and disgusting.

Not at all.  That's war. I would have much rather that hamas didn't start the war.  i would much rather they wanted peace.

But- now that they did start the war the only choice is to wipe them out. And unfortunately because they don't give a shit about killing their own people (and neither do you), it becomes necessary for those people to die as part of prosecuting the war.

IF you don't - then many many more people die in the long run. IF they'd done this during the other similar wars then this war wouldn't be happening and more than 10 thousand lives would have been saved.

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No I don't.

Yeah.  You do.  And that's  a problem.

 

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I also don't think Israel should get away for killing 100 times more Palestinian civilians, which has been going on well before Oct. 7th.

Awww - look at you. Trying to justify the october 7 terror attack that killed thousand of civillians.   Siding with the terrorists. Claming it was justified because israel apparently killed 150 thousand palestinians just before or something, which we both know is a lie.

Dude. You're a terrorist supporter justifying the slaugher of civillians for no reason other than to kill civillians.

And i'm supposed to give a shit about what you think?  I'm supposed to think you care when civillians die because hamas is using them as meat shields?

IF you genuinely feel bad about those Palestinian deaths - then go have a chat with your terrorist friends about NOT driving into israel and gunning down civvies by the thousand.  ANd maybe chat with them about NOT using their people as meat sheilds and building their bunkers under hospitals.  Now go cry your crocodile tears somewhere else.

[marcus]

Just now, CdnFox said:

Not at all.  That's war. I would have much rather that hamas didn't start the war.  i would much rather they wanted peace.

If you want to be taken seriously, then you need to do two things:

1) Stop showing a sociopath's tendencies, by excusing 6000 innocent children being blown into pieces by Israel.

2) You should try being honest. This did not start on October 7th.

Your way of thinking should not be normalized. 

[eyeball]

9 hours ago, CdnFox said:

If it were just straight up ideology then nobody would care about that stuff in the slightest

And you people clearly don't. You dismiss virtually anything and everything that's put on front of you. It's the same with science and climate change.

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This is pure unadulterated ethnic hatred and distrust.

And if the left was a race your mothers would be ashamed of you.

[Zeitgeist]

21 hours ago, eyeball said:

Negotiating and making peace with the group that isn't dedicated to that - secular left-wing Palestinians.

I don't know, Hamas and the hard boiled Zionists calling the shots in Israel seem to go together like peas and carrots - it's almost as if they were made for one another. 

Your mistake is thinking that the left are mostly against Hamas. The western support for Hamas comes from the left. As for your notions about pluralism in Gaza, get real. Iran and Hizbollah and Hamas are happy to use the left’s sympathies whilst opposing all opposition, hating progressive values (including LGBTQ2S+), and wishing for the death of Israel and America, including the mass murder of innocent civilians.  In this context Israel must be fiercely careful and defend its polity and population, which includes Muslims and Palestinians. Hamas are using the same left-wing rhetoric of “settler colonialism” to garner sympathy from BLM and radical Indigenous activists seeking reparations, and communists.  Of course Hamas hates these groups as much as they hate the Jews.  That’s why you have to be very careful not to buy into the victim narrative Hamas is using.  Hamas is actively undermining the wellbeing of Gazans in actual fact through its terrorist activities and mismanagement of Gaza.  

Edited November 25, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[eyeball]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Your mistake is thinking that the left are mostly against Hamas.

The terms "self-hating Jew" and "self-loathing Jew" are used to describe a Jew whose viewpoints on any specific matter are perceived as antisemitic.^[1] This phenomenon is also known as auto-antisemitism

Usage of self-hatred can also designate dislike, or hatred, of a group to which one belongs. The term has a long history in debates over the role of Israel in Jewish identity, where it is used against Jewish critics of Israeli government policy.^[3]

 

In 2014, Noam Chomsky said that Zionists divided critics of Israeli policy into two groups: antisemitic non-Jews and neurotic self-hating Jews, stating:

Actually, the locus classicus, the best formulation of this, was by an ambassador to the United Nations, Abba Eban, Israel's ambassador to the United Nations.... He advised the American Jewish community that they had two tasks to perform. One task was to show that criticism of the policy, what he called anti-Zionism—that means actually criticisms of the policy of the state of Israel—were anti-Semitism. That's the first task. Second task, if the criticism was made by Jews, their task was to show that it's neurotic self-hatred, needs psychiatric treatment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew

Netanyahu says this is a global conflict and he's right.  It's Israel's right-wing that's wagging the world's dog.   

[Zeitgeist]

18 minutes ago, eyeball said:

The terms "self-hating Jew" and "self-loathing Jew" are used to describe a Jew whose viewpoints on any specific matter are perceived as antisemitic.^[1] This phenomenon is also known as auto-antisemitism

Usage of self-hatred can also designate dislike, or hatred, of a group to which one belongs. The term has a long history in debates over the role of Israel in Jewish identity, where it is used against Jewish critics of Israeli government policy.^[3]

 

In 2014, Noam Chomsky said that Zionists divided critics of Israeli policy into two groups: antisemitic non-Jews and neurotic self-hating Jews, stating:

Actually, the locus classicus, the best formulation of this, was by an ambassador to the United Nations, Abba Eban, Israel's ambassador to the United Nations.... He advised the American Jewish community that they had two tasks to perform. One task was to show that criticism of the policy, what he called anti-Zionism—that means actually criticisms of the policy of the state of Israel—were anti-Semitism. That's the first task. Second task, if the criticism was made by Jews, their task was to show that it's neurotic self-hatred, needs psychiatric treatment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew

Netanyahu says this is a global conflict and he's right.  It's Israel's right-wing that's wagging the world's dog.   

I’m well aware of Chomsky’s narratives.  I would beware of the ways that the word “Zionism” has been used to promote antisemitism.  There were Jews for thousands of years in Judea and the areas roughly defined by Israel’s current borders.  There is peace between peoples of different religions within Israel but outside of Gaza.  While I agree that there’s a harsher right wing faction in the Knesset and some of the settlement in the West Bank has been provocative, none of this has been terrorist and the Israeli state has never promoted terrorism.  Israel has problems, but if you don’t recognize the distinction between a country defending itself and retaliating against terrorism versus an organization that commits terrorist acts and refuses to work constructively and recognize Israel’s right to exist, we have a problem.

[CdnFox]

7 hours ago, marcus said:

If you want to be taken seriously, then you need to do two things:

Kid, you're already a joke.  It's a little late to be giving people advice on being taken seriously on this issue.

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1) Stop showing a sociopath's tendencies, by excusing 6000 innocent children being blown into pieces by Israel.

So... that's not what sociopath means. I'm sure you think i'ts a really bad word and so you're using it as an insult but no - a sociopath is something else. If i were a sociopath i wouldn't care about the war either way and wouldn't talk to you about it because it would be of no interest to me and no effect on my life.

You probably meant that i should be more empathetic to the side you prefer.  But it's not a question of empathy, it's a question of putting an end to this war once and for all.

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2) You should try being honest. This did not start on October 7th.

It started on October 7th.  On that day, Hamas decided to commit an act of war.  The next day Israel declared war in response,  The citizens of Gaza are currently being blown into bite sized pieces as Israel prosecutes that war against their country, and that will continue till one side or the other surrenders or is completely defeated.

That is a simple truth.  THe fact there were other wars and conflicts before that doesn't change a thing.

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Your way of thinking should not be normalized. 

It's totally normalized already.

This is no diffeerent than ww2.  Germany thought the allied powers had stolen their land (they had) and were imposing extremely harsh conditions on it's people (which they did - treaty of versilles) and that they would be justified in launching a war against their enemies for crimes against them going back many years.  Which they did.

And i feel no different for every german civillian who died as a result - it's a damn shame but that kind of evil has to be wiped out even if the people have to pay a price.

If you gave a shit about the people dying you'd be speaking out against hamas, and the fact that you don't speaks volumes.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Israel has problems, but if you don’t recognize the distinction between a country defending itself and retaliating against terrorism versus an organization that commits terrorist acts and refuses to work constructively and recognize Israel’s right to exist, we have a problem.

This works both ways but the problem is right wingers everywhere refuse to acknowledge it.

In this little exchange of ours I expect you'll deny the status of country for Palestine and it won't matter a bit if I swap out the word country with people to make the same point.

It only ever works one way or the highway with you people.

Edited November 25, 2023 by eyeball

[CdnFox]

22 minutes ago, eyeball said:

This works both ways but the problem is right wingers everywhere refuse to acknowledge it.

In this little exchange of ours I expect you'll deny the status of country for Palestine and it won't matter a bit if I swap out the word country with people to make the same point.

It only ever works one way or the highway with you people.

Do you have any idea what a racist ignorant bigot you sound like?

And at the end of the day he was right and you were wrong. It isn't about the 'title' of gaza - a soverign nation has the right to defend itself and it does so by war.  There is a difference between that and a group, be it a nation or other, who uses terror to attempt to achieve it's goals and then hides behind it's population.

There's no comparison. Hamas and gaza's military strength must be completely wiped out.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Do you have any idea what a racist ignorant bigot you sound like

Fu ck you too asswipe.

[Zeitgeist]

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

This works both ways but the problem is right wingers everywhere refuse to acknowledge it.

In this little exchange of ours I expect you'll deny the status of country for Palestine and it won't matter a bit if I swap out the word country with people to make the same point.

It only ever works one way or the highway with you people.

You don’t see how ignorant and pretentious you sound painting everyone with the same brush and referring to a number of posters as “you people”.  No one said Palestinians can’t have a country except Palestinians.