‘It’s just not translating’: New Democrats worry about party’s performance under Jagmeet Singh’s leadership

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, blackbird said:

You love a welfare state.  Maybe everyone could just work and let government take 80% of their pay cheques and provide cradle to grave care for everyone.  

Maybe everyone could be paid a better share of the capital gains being realized in the economy.

It would still be possible for most families to have a home, a car, university educations for the kids, and retirement plans for mom and dad on a single income if the rate of  wage increases had kept pace with our grandfather's.  I bet they could even afford to pay taxes 

[CdnFox]

5 minutes ago, Nexii said:

Yea well the provincial pharmacare is flawed.

In what way?

 

5 minutes ago, Nexii said:

And so may be the NDP's vision for federal, honestly I haven't looked into it.

Well they don't actually have one yet - it was a requirement of their deal with the libs that the libs come up with a 'pharmacare plan'.  So there are no actual details yet.

 

6 minutes ago, Nexii said:

Basically you need to be really low income (near to zero really) to qualify.

Well i know here in bc a person earning around 70 - 80 grand would have to pay about 2000 dollars out of their own pocked per year and everything else would be covered.  That doesn't seem TOO unreasonable.

 

8 minutes ago, Nexii said:

It's archaic compared to how private insurers do it.

Agreed - i would personally rather see the gov't work with the insurers to provide some sort of medical dental plan that people who don't get it at work can opt into at an affordable price. Like maybe a fixed percent of income and free for unemployed.  That would probably be the cheapest way.

[blackbird]

NDP are pure Socialists.  They certainly do believe in wealth redistribution.  Socialism has been tried in many countries but has been a failure.  Lazy people will just see it as a way to live off the government (taxpayers) without having to work and those that work see it as stealing what they worked for.  So how do Socialists square that circle?

In a world where investors and corporations can take their money and invest it in whatever country they choose,  they will choose to move to a more investor-friendly place.  That leaves the Socialist or Welfare country in poverty.  The good-paying jobs simply flee elsewhere.

The welfare state type of government spends vast fortunes providing every conceivable social program to its citizens, at least in theory, but they soon learn the money tree runs dry.  They certainly don't have the money to start crown corporations to take over where corporations fled from the country.

Bureaucrats generally do not have the knowledge or expertise to run private enterprise either, and systems like public health care start failing as we are witnessing.  Politicians are incapable of properly running complex systems like health care.  Politicians are also under tremendous pressure from all side to provide funding for everything under the sun.

Edited October 18, 2023 by blackbird

[Nationalist]

16 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Maybe everyone could be paid a better share of the capital gains being realized in the economy.

It would still be possible for most families to have a home, a car, university educations for the kids, and retirement plans for mom and dad on a single income if the rate of  wage increases had kept pace with our grandfather's.  I bet they could even afford to pay taxes 

I do semi-agree with you on this. The problem is, wages did not keep pace with inflation or corporate profits.

Remember the saying "Greed is good"? Well as it often turns out...it is not. Greed is a "tool" that needs to be used with some humility and common sense. Which it has not been. For half a century now, the middle-class has been raped. A number of things have happened to make this all palatable to the middle-class. A major one, IMO, was the advent of the credit card. Today's economy runs on pure credit. That's not a good thing.

The problem is...instead of complaining...what are you prepared to do? Make it illegal for corporations to not bring wages up to some "par" that you pick from when things were better for the middle-class? Do you think that would ever happen? Do you realize the push-back level would be monumental?

Nice ideas are just that...nice ideas. UNLESS...you're willing to go to the mats with it. Because to make this happen somehow now...even slowly over a decade...would be met with every institution we have...attacking you and the idea.

BTW...that's the same mentality...the same bravery (if you will)...it took for truckers and their supporters to protest like they did in Ottawa. The very same. Are you willing to risk everything for your purpose?

[eyeball]

39 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Remember the saying "Greed is good"

Sure I've had it thrown in my face for decades when pointing out the wealth/income gap/inequity in our economy, along with capitalism-hating commie.

So why do you hate it? I bet no poor man ever gave you a job. Besides which anyone can sharpen their pencils, roll up their sleeves and be a gazillionaire or don'tcha know?

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Nexii said:

I'm for the universal dental and pharmacare. 

Me too, except it is only available to children under 12, and the maximum $650 per year only for the poorest familes. Otherwise prorated to $250/ year.

It don't sound all that universal to me.

[Nexii]

31 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

In what way?

 

Well they don't actually have one yet - it was a requirement of their deal with the libs that the libs come up with a 'pharmacare plan'.  So there are no actual details yet.

 

Well i know here in bc a person earning around 70 - 80 grand would have to pay about 2000 dollars out of their own pocked per year and everything else would be covered.  That doesn't seem TOO unreasonable.

 

Agreed - i would personally rather see the gov't work with the insurers to provide some sort of medical dental plan that people who don't get it at work can opt into at an affordable price. Like maybe a fixed percent of income and free for unemployed.  That would probably be the cheapest way.

Yea, that would probably be best. It also keeps the private work plans competitive with the government one. 

It is sort of nonsense to pay hospital/clinic fees, but then not give people the drugs they need to get better

13 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Me too, except it is only available to children under 12, and the maximum $650 per year only for the poorest familes. Otherwise prorated to $250/ year.

It don't sound all that universal to me.

Yea I meant the concept of it, I didn't look into the NDP plan specifically. Core dental work like cleanings and fillings should be covered IMO. Not doing this stuff just increases healthcare costs elsewhere in our system

[CdnFox]

25 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Sure I've had it thrown in my face for decades when pointing out the wealth/income gap/inequity in our economy, along with capitalism-hating commie.

 

And well it should be thrown in your face.  What you missed in all your whining is that regardless of increases to the top end, the bottom end's life quality improved significant'y as well.

Lets face it - you have the same greed issues - it's just that you're greedy for other people's money instead of being greedy for the opportunity to make your own.

27 minutes ago, eyeball said:

So why do you hate it? I bet no poor man ever gave you a job. Besides which anyone can sharpen their pencils, roll up their sleeves and be a gazillionaire or don'tcha know?

So you know you're in the wrong and you feel that somehow that makes the answers less true

wealthy people create jobs and raise the standard of living for all, and anyone can in fact improve their financial position, the country is rife with opportunity.

But no - everyone should get everything for free - who ever heard of WORKING for a living?

[CdnFox]

8 minutes ago, Nexii said:

Yea, that would probably be best. It also keeps the private work plans competitive with the government one. I

exactly - employers will want to stand out and so they'll have to up their benefits game. Meanwhile everyone gets the basics.

Anyway - it would certianly be the fastest route - stepping on the fewest provincial toes (health care is their domain) and only focusing on insurance funding.  But i'm not sure we'll see much from this gov't.

[Nexii]

The other problem with the current system is that you still have to co-pay even if your income is 0. 20% of a drug's cost can still be a lot of money.

[Nefarious Banana]

19 hours ago, eyeball said:

Between dental care and Pharmacare Jagmeet Singh accomplished more for more Canadians in a couple of years than anyone else in Parliament combined has.

I'd be happy with one minority government after another if it meant a trend towards more comprehensive social/healthcare lie this.

Your Communist leanings are showing once again.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Your Communist leanings are showing once again.

Sure, whatever you say chief, but from each according to their ability and to each according to their need is pretty much the basis for the way a family organizes its resources and skills. Even Neanderthal's could have seen the utility in following a similar prescription for a village.

In any case it's how the authority or the power to influence the system is shared or distributed within it that differentiates between whether it's being used appropriately for everyone's benefit or inappropriately for just a few.

All else being more or less equal there should still be plenty of room in between these two for advancing one's personal ambitions.

[Moonbox]

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

"Hand waiving math"     so.... like 300 - 600 was too much for you to work out The calculations were hysterically difficult were they

The calculations aren't the issue, it's the numbers you pull out of your ass and wave around that make them meaningless.  

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

And second off - all gov't program spending increases inflation. You'll recall that scotia bank report you loved to plug your ears and humm avoiding awhile back which directly noted that the gov't spending was seriously contributing to the problem

I recall the Scotiabank report dunking on your previous bullshitting about inflation, because you don't actually know anything about how it works.  

5 hours ago, CdnFox said:

False. They would have more money for dental if trudeau had done more to curb inflation. So they won't get a benefit, they just take less of a hit.

No, because as we already know, Trudeau wasn't responsible for most of the inflation...which was global...as per the Scotiabank report.  ?

[blackbird]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Sure, whatever you say chief, but from each according to their ability and to each according to their need is pretty much the basis for the way a family organizes its resources and skills.

Wasn't that the Karl Marx ideology, each according to their ability and to each according to their need? ?    I am sure it was.  The Communist Russians thought that was going to create a utopia, but all it created was a monster.  Everyone became equally poor.  The only ones that had anything were the Communist party higher-ups.

[eyeball]

8 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Wasn't that the Karl Marx ideology, each according to their ability and to each according to their need

Something like that. Like I said even a Neanderthal could have figured it out.

I think Jesus did too and they nailed him to a cross for talking about it.

Edited October 18, 2023 by eyeball

[taxme]

On 10/14/2023 at 6:44 AM, CdnFox said:

https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/it-s-just-not-translating-new-democrats-worry-about-party-s-performance-under-jagmeet-singh/article_7a82cfb0-4e5a-5ac5-a005-48e064a51a95.html

 

HAMILTON—On the eve of NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh’s third leadership review, party members are delivering a mixed assessment of Singh’s tenure as leader — and the governing pact he inked with the Trudeau Liberals more than a year ago.

“I think politically, Jagmeet Singh has been better than I was expecting him to be in a lot of ways,” said Miles Krauter, an active member of the NDP for the past decade.

“But for whatever reason, it’s just not translating electorally for us … he might say a lot of good things, but it doesn’t always seem connected to a broader vision, a transformational vision for society.”

But the party’s grassroots had a more sobering view of the governing agreement, which party observers predict will be one of the legacies of Singh’s time as leader.

For Krauter, the deal initially represented nothing more than the NDP propping up progressive policies the Liberals were already open to implementing.

The NDP “has been trumpeting (dental care) as universal dental care, but it doesn’t even really feel like an adequate means-tested program,” he said.

“But in fact, it’s a rebate program, which is classic Liberal policy.”

Krauter, who lives in Ontario, also said the party’s message that it is solely the New Democrats who have secured affordability victories for Canadians isn’t resonating on the ground.

The NDP will never be in power in Canada. They are just too dumb and stupid that they should never be in power. They would fk this country even worse than what it is today. They show that they have no common sense or logic with anything they say or do. It's all emotional with the NDP. They believe that the government should be involved in everything and everybody's lives. But what else can be expected from a bunch of no mind communists.

Sadly, they keep getting approx. 30% from the dumb downed Joe and Mary six pack population to vote for them that believes in socialism for Canada. They are a big problem for Canada. 

[OftenWrong]

25 minutes ago, taxme said:

The NDP will never be in power in Canada. They are just too dumb and stupid that they should never be in power. They would fk this country even worse than what it is today. They show that they have no common sense or logic with anything they say or do. It's all emotional with the NDP. They believe that the government should be involved in everything and everybody's lives. But what else can be expected from a bunch of no mind communists.

Sadly, they keep getting approx. 30% from the dumb downed Joe and Mary six pack population to vote for them that believes in socialism for Canada. They are a big problem for Canada. 

I do not have such confidence

that Canadians are not stupid enough to elect

the Jagged Meathead Singer

in fact quite the opposite

given the number of disenfranchized liberals coming out now as a result of 

the true dope,

who do you think they will vote for? Pierre Poivre?

that's why,

I got some really bad news for you sonny.   ?

 

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

The calculations aren't the issue, it's the numbers you pull out of your ass and wave around that make them meaningless.  

Sure kid.  Easy to say now that i did the math for you   

 

Quote

I recall the Scotiabank report dunking on your previous bullshitting about inflation, because you don't actually know anything about how it works.  

I recall you trying to lie about it but then having to admit being wrong in the end despite desperately trying to ignore large sections of the report and English word meaning

But the july report was clear - had a graph and everything - gov't spending is forcing the bank to raise interest rates more than it should to combat inflation and cutting spending on programs would reduce that to nothing if it was as little as three percent.

Quote

No, because as we already know, Trudeau wasn't responsible for most of the inflation...which was global...as per the Scotiabank report.  ?

We in fact know he is responsible for it.  The scotia bank report said half of the issues were internal to canada - other countries were wrestling with similar problems but half were not external.

AND - we also know that was at the beginning - not now.

Want me to prove what a lying sack of shi*t you are yet again?  Want to pretend we dont' have immigration or that the bank itself didnt' say that initially it was global but that changed? Want to pretend the same bank as the report you tried to misquote which said half of the issues are internal to canada DIDN'T produce a report pointing out gov't spending is what's making it difficult to fight inflation?

God you're such a loser. You know you're wrong and you're going to look like an !diot but your lowbrow brain and devotion to your cult won't let you cope with that.

The so called dental program has done nothing to help canadians. The vast majority of people were already covered, the payout for those who do qualify is tiny and is less than inflation has already taken from them - meaning the libs took more than they gave to those families anyway.

 

[blackbird]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Something like that. Like I said even a Neanderthal could have figured it out.

I think Jesus did too and they nailed him to a cross for talking about it.

 God said "thou shalt not steal".  Socialists and Communists steal so how could Jesus have supported that?  He couldn't and didn't.

[herbie]

Such intelligent criticism from people who can't tell between Joe Stalin and Karl Marx or Jack Layton and Tommy Douglas and wouldn't vote NDP to save their own life.  And as I see the usual racist reasons.
And think an 81% leadership review is less than a 68% leadership endorsement...

[Army Guy]

23 hours ago, eyeball said:

Zero... literally and absolutely zero benefit. Not one dime has been spent providing dental care?

Bullshit.

Dental care is not available for every Canadian, so it is not that big of a win...it is just for people who earn under a certain figure, that whole part of dental care has not been pushed through yet...if ever...as far as pharma care it is going to be the same way, not for every Canadian, and it is still a twinkle in the NDP eyes...

But it's not fair to compare Justins benefits to the NDP's, Justin really has not accomplish all that much, in the way of benefits , he sure piled on the scandals though, don't know if we can say that out loud can we? the liberal get upset when you speak his name...

[Moonbox]

13 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Sure kid.  Easy to say now that i did the math for you   

I can do math too.  9+2 = 11.  "Now you don't have to do it." ?

Your problem is you're making the numbers up, which makes the "math" you're doing meaningless. 

13 hours ago, CdnFox said:

We in fact know he is responsible for it.  The scotia bank report said half of the issues were internal to canada - other countries were wrestling with similar problems but half were not external.

No it didn't. ?

It's said that 85% were external and global issues:

a.      Around 50% of the increase in inflation observed since the end of 2019 can be ascribed to global or foreign factors. These include US inflation, commodity prices and movements in the exchange rate.

b.     Supply challenges that largely reflect developments at the global level account for another 35% of the rise in inflation.

https://www.scotiabank.com/ca/en/about/economics/economics-publications/post.other-publications.inflation-reports.causes-of-inflation--december-5--2022.html

13 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Want me to prove what a lying sack of shi*t you are yet again? 

Funny you say that, immediately after proving how much of an open and shameless liar you are.  Dig those heels in some more, clown.  

Edited October 19, 2023 by Moonbox

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

I can do math too.  9+2 = 11.  "Now you don't have to do it." ?

Yeah but it took you three replies to figure that out AND we both know you used a calculator

Quote

Your problem is you're making the numbers up, which makes the "math" you're doing meaningless. 

No, the problem is your comprehension. The point was if you take twice what you've given, the person has less.  The actual numbers are published if you'd care to look at them but the point was very simple - inflation has consumed more than the benefit would provide so the people are worse off.

It's actually a little sad you coudln't understand that - but i guess the math confused you

 

 

Quote

 

No it didn't. ?

It's said that 85% were external and global issues:

a.      Around 50% of the increase in inflation observed since the end of 2019 can be ascribed to global or foreign factors. These include US inflation, commodity prices and movements in the exchange rate.

 

Literally says 50 percent are global or foreign.  So ...  what's 100 percent minus 50 percent?

Oh yeah. Half.   Man- you really do suck at math

50 percent of the issues were internal to canada - but were things other countries were facing too.  That's what it says.

And again - That was 2 years ago. inflation today is not being driven by covid. Sorry.

 

So -  to recap, there is no 'canadian dental plan', there is a small rebate program that mostly "covers" people who already had provincial coverage and the rebate is actually less than the rise of the cost of living under the libs in just one year so even the tiny handful of people who receive it are still worse off than they were before the trudeau-driven inflation of the last few years.

 

I will now await your usual hissy fit accusing me of typing more than you can and attempting to try to distract the conversation by focusing on some minor detail instead of the subject at  hand.  Hopefully i haven't damaged you to the point where you start memeing  

[Moonbox]

11 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Literally says 50 percent are global or foreign.  So ...  what's 100 percent minus 50 percent?

a.      Around 50% of the increase in inflation observed since the end of 2019 can be ascribed to global or foreign factors. These include US inflation, commodity prices and movements in the exchange rate.

b.     Supply challenges that largely reflect developments at the global level account for another 35% of the rise in inflation.

Keep digging those heels in.  Dumb dumb dumb...

 

 

[CdnFox]

Just now, Moonbox said:

a.      Around 50% of the increase in inflation observed since the end of 2019 can be ascribed to global or foreign factors.

 

About 50 perent can be ascribed to foreign factors.

So .. the other  50 percent is not foreign factors.

That should have tipped you off that you were having a comprehension problem right there  

The rest is reflective of challenges everyone faced - but not external.

Quote

Keep digging those heels in.  Dumb dumb dumb...

Keep posting proof i'm right    Loving it

 

And i certainly called it - once again trying to distract from the embarrasing truth at hand that you can't faice - Trudeau's dental plan helps no one. It applies to almost nobody and inflation chewed up any benefit they might have had

So you're wrong twice in one thread  - very efficient of you