The death industry for the disabled, mentally ill, and poor is ramping up in Canada

[TreeBeard]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

So when someone can’t make medical decisions because they have been declared unable to do so, the power of attorney can say, “Treebird really wanted a painless and quick death.”  Those who are biochemically imbalanced will be able to get a doctor to help them off themselves.  So much for the Hippocratic Oath of doctors to help people who are sick.  This is the final solution of our failed healthcare system.  Welcome to creepy Canada.

You clearly haven’t read the criteria for MAID. 

[TreeBeard]

2 hours ago, blackbird said:

Euthanasia is very similar to the Russian Putin government ordaining the bombing of civilians or shooting them in the streets, which has been happening.  It is state-sanctioned killing just as euthanasia is in Canada.

Death with dignity is like Putin killing Ukrainians.  
 

This might be the absolutely dumbest argument I’ve ever heard. 

[blackbird]

The Federal government's committee which has been meeting for some time to consider the issue of extending MAID to people based solely on their mental illness issued their first report in June.  Their reports are available on the government website.  Of course the Liberals and NDP have the largest number of MPs on the committee.  The Conservative have only three MPs.  But the Conservative did issue a dissenting opinion on the first report.   Part of the dissenting opinion states:

Note MAID MD-SUMC refers to MAID based solely on a person's mental illness.

quote

The Lack of Meaningful Study and Consultation

We are concerned by the rushed manner that the Liberal government is implementing MAID MD-SUMC absent meaningful study and consultation. 

MAID MD-SUMC represents a significant expansion of MAID.  Canada will be only the fourth jurisdiction in the world, after Belgium, Luxemburg, and the Netherlands, to permit MAID MD-SUMC. 

Issues around mental illness in the context of MAID are incredibly complex and impacts some of the most vulnerable persons in Canadian society.  The Honourable David Lametti, the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, acknowledged this, stating that there are “inherent complexities and risks with MAID on the basis of mental illness as the sole criterion, such as suicidality being a symptom of some mental illnesses.”[1]

Notwithstanding this, the Liberal government abruptly accepted the Senate amendment to Bill C-7 to expand MAID to include MAID MD-SUMC.  The Liberals did so absent further study and in the face of evidence from multiple expert witnesses who appeared at the Senate Standing Committee on Legal Constitutional Affairs and warned about serious risks associated with MAID MD-SUMC.[2] 

The need for further study of the issues associated with MAID MD-SUMC is supported by the findings of the 2018 Canadian Council of Academies report: The State of Knowledge on Medical Assistance in Dying Where a Mental Disorder Is the Sole Underlying Medical Condition (the “2018 CCA Report”).  That 2018 CCA Report found “many important knowledge gaps concerning mental disorders” and that “continued research and examination” is needed to “address some uncertainties and reduce or remove these knowledge gaps.”[3] 

Given the risks and uncertainties surrounding MAID MD-SUMC, it is noteworthy that the Quebec National Assembly Select Committee tasked with studying Quebec’s MAID regime recommended “that access to medical aid in dying not be extended to persons whose only medical condition is a mental disorder.”[4]  In light of the extent to which the Quebec National Assembly considered these matters, it is important to consider its recommendations.

Yet since adopting the Senate amendment and setting in motion MAID MD-SUMC effective March 2023, the Liberal government has not undertaken any further study to examine the many complex issues.  Nor have the Liberals adequately considered the significant concerns that have been raised about the appropriateness of MAID MD-SUMC, and whether it can be safely implemented. Although the Liberal government appointed the Expert Panel, the mandate of the Panel was to bring forward recommendations on implementing MAID MD-SUMC, not to consider the question of whether such an expansion is appropriate.

In addition to a lack of study, there has been a lack of consultation.  The Liberal government has failed to meaningfully engage with stakeholders, including persons with disabilities and their advocates, Indigenous peoples, mental health professionals and advocates, and other experts.  This lack of consultation was condemned at the Committee by Sarah Jama, Executive Director of the Disability Justice Network of Ontario.[5]  Notably, the mandate of the Expert Panel did not include consultation with affected stakeholders.[6]

Moreover, the Liberal government has ignored feedback from the limited consultation that occurred when Canadians were invited to provide feedback on issues surrounding MAID by completing a survey prepared by the Department of Justice.  The Department of Justice’s report on the results of the consultation concluded: “A majority of those who provided comments were not in favour of extending MAID to people who suffer from mental illness.”[7]  unquote

Note that a majority of input consultations from the public were NOT in favour of extending MAID to people who suffer from mental illness.  Yet the Liberal-NDP coalition government is pressing ahead with extending it to people with mental illness.

It should also be noted Canada will be only the fourth jurisdiction in the world to extend MAID to mentally ill persons, after Luxembourg, Belgium, and the Netherlands.

Committee Report No. 1 - AMAD (44-1) - Parliament of Canada

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by blackbird

[blackbird]

24 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

That’s BS.  People suffer unimaginable pain all the time.  You don’t need to lie to try and make it seem as if suffering no longer exists.  BS. 

It is no lie.  There are powerful pain killers.  Try Google.  However, aside from the pain killers, which are commonly used it should be understood that the taking of human life is not within the rights or prerogative of man.  When life ends is God's business, not man's.  The Bible makes it clear "thou shalt not kill".   You obviously don't believe the Bible.  I would assume you are a secular humanist, which means your guide on the matter is purely human reasoning.  You should know that could condemn a person to hell.  Time you started to read the New Testament because you obviously believe killing of people is ok if there is a humanist reason for.  Suffering is part of life often.  It is sad and unfortunate that it happens but that is the way life is sometimes.  People suffer all kinds of ways, mentally, physically, etc.  But there is no exception that God gives to allow people to kill themselves or others to escape suffering in this world.  The argument that because there is suffering it is ok to help someone commit suicide is contrary to what the Bible says.  We will be held accountable for our actions.  

It is also a mistake to assume that everyone will suffer a lot of pain before they die.  Many people die peacefully and some even in their sleep.  And there are various pain killers which you seem to ignore. But if there is suffering, there is the Bible which gives hope and assurance for those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.   There will be a better future after all the suffering is over.  Jesus Christ said he will never leave nor forsake us. (those who have accepted him) To take the easy way out by lethal injection with the aid of a doctor is just contrary to what God said going back in history as far as you can practically go.  It is foolish and a form of rebellion against our Creator.  You need to start reading the Bible and change your thinking before it is too late.

Edited August 16, 2022 by blackbird

[blackbird]

The Conservatives also raised the issue of irremediability of the mentally ill.  This is where many experts on mental illness would agree.  It is impossible to predict who may be cured of their mental illness.  You can read what the Conservative members had to say in their minority report and read the committee's report about this issue as well as other related issues at the link below. 

quote

The Difficulty in Predicting Irremediability

Based on evidence the Committee heard, there is significant doubt about whether it is possible to accurately predict the irremediability of a mental disorder that must be thoughtfully considered. 

By law, to be eligible for MAID, a person must have a “grievous and irremediable medical condition” that is “incurable” and in “an advanced state of irreversible decline”.[8]  Another words, to qualify, a MAID assessor must be satisfied that the person’s condition will not get better. The Committee heard from multiple witnesses who said that it is not possible to predict whether a person suffering from a mental health disorder will get better, and therefore not possible to ascertain irremediability.[9] 

For example, Dr. John Maher, a clinical psychiatrist, and medical ethicist, said:

“Psychiatrists don't know and can't know who will get better and live decades of good life. Brain diseases are not liver diseases.”[10]

Dr. Brian Mishara, also a clinical psychiatrist and professor at the Université du Québec à Montréal, said:

“I'm a scientist. The latest Cochrane Review of research on the ability to find some indicator of the future course of a mental illness, either treated or untreated, concluded that we have no specific scientific ways of doing this. We are relying on the clinical hunch of someone who hasn't known the person for 20 or 30 years and who has no scientific data showing that they can determine this.”[11]

Dr. Mishara further noted that “[e]ven the most severe mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia, are unpredictable.”[12]

Dr. Valorie Masuda, a physician and MAID assessor, said:

“When we look at what irremediable means in mental illness, I think it's very difficult to predict and to say that this person has tried a lot of things, but their depression they cannot recover from.”[13]

Even the Expert Panel conceded the difficulty in determining the irremediability of a mental disorder, stating:

“The evolution of many mental disorders, like some other chronic conditions, is difficult to predict for a given individual. There is limited knowledge about the long-term prognosis for many conditions, and it is difficult, if not impossible, for clinicians to make accurate predictions about the future for an individual patient.”[14]

The degree of uncertainty in predicting irremediability is underscored by the Expert Panel’s finding that “[i]t is not possible to provide fixed rules” and that determining eligibility will be completely subjective and left up to MAID assessors to determine on a “case-by-case basis.”[15]

As such, MAID decisions in the case of a mental disorder will be based on “hunches and guesswork that could be wildly inaccurate.”[16]  As Dr. Mark Sinyor, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Toronto and psychiatrist who specializes in the treatment of adults with complex mood and anxiety disorders, said:

“They could be making an error 2% of the time or 95% of the time. That information should be at the forefront of this discussion, yet it is absent altogether.”[17]

Likewise, Dr. Mishara stated with respect to persons suffering from a mental health disorder:

“But any attempt at identifying who should have access to MAID will make large numbers of mistakes, and people who would have experienced improvements in their symptoms and no longer wish to die will die by MAID.”[18]

Moreover, there is a paucity of scientific evidence to evaluate the safety of MAID MD-SUMC, and the possibility of predicting irremediability.  According to Dr. Sinyor there “is absolutely no research on the reliability of physician predictions of the irremediability of illness or suffering in psychiatric conditions.”[19]  Consistent with this, Dr. Mona Gupta, the Chair of the Expert Panel, testified that she is unaware of any such studies.[20]

Having regard for the above and given the uncertainty around determining irremediability, it is irresponsible and appears to be legally incoherent to move forward with implementing MAID MD-SUMC at this time. It is first necessary for the Liberal government to thoroughly study whether irremediability in the context of a mental disorder is determinable so that, as noted by Dr. Mark Sinyor, “the necessary scientific information is in hand before making such a consequential decision.”[21]    unquote

Committee Report No. 1 - AMAD (44-1) - Parliament of Canada

I realize the report of the committee is quite long and many parts to it. But it is all there on the Parliament's website for those who want to get an idea how the system works.  You can also find the public's submissions somewhere on the website.  There are a large number of those. 

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

You clearly haven’t read the criteria for MAID. 

The evidence is already in: Poor people choosing government-aided suicide because of health issues related to housing.  Young people with depression seeking (and soon able to acquire) MAID because of depression or alcoholism.    The laws haven’t been loosed yet and we already see major problems.

The Liberals will arrogantly try to ram through the legislation.  Life is devalued by Canada’s Liberal government.  

Edited August 16, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[dialamah]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

The evidence is already in: Poor people choosing government-aided suicide because of health issues related to housing.  Young people with depression seeking (and soon able to acquire) MAID because of depression or alcoholism.    The laws haven’t been loosed yet and we already see major problems.

The Liberals will arrogantly try to ram through the legislation.  Life is devalued by Canada’s Liberal government.  

If someone is determined.enough.to.die, can always commit suicide.  If that's what they choose, why not let them go with the least amount of trauma to their family by giving them the chance to say goodbye. 

Not to mention, the time between applying for MAID and actually going through with it can allow people to change their minds.  

[TreeBeard]

9 hours ago, blackbird said:

It is no lie

If it’s not a lie, then it is extreme ignorance to think there are people who are not suffering with extreme pain near the end of their life.  
 

[dialamah]

9 hours ago, blackbird said:

There are powerful pain killers

My mother was on fentanyl patches during her extended death; she was still in significant pain.  They couldn't give her anything more or stronger because it would have killed her faster.  

[Zeitgeist]

12 minutes ago, dialamah said:

If someone is determined.enough.to.die, can always commit suicide.  If that's what they choose, why not let them go with the least amount of trauma to their family by giving them the chance to say goodbye. 

Not to mention, the time between applying for MAID and actually going through with it can allow people to change their minds.  

It’s simply too easy and run of the mill to get help from your government health authority to do yourself in.  The elderly and disabled, including those with mental health challenges, will be pressured by “loved ones” to choose the path of least resistance for them and the state.  It will be considered a point of honour by some to remove your burdensome self from the lives of others and reduce your costs to the state.  If you have money, even better for the people who will inherit it sooner.  People whose lives have become difficult because of poverty and living conditions may opt to kill themselves.  This has already happened to a woman with allergies to items in her home.  Rather than bothering to treat or persistently support people who are ill with time and attention, it will be cheap and efficient to kill them or approve and assist their suicide.  If this is already happening, we have good reasons to expect more of it as legislation loosens.  I’ve seen first hand how dismissive CCAC and other authorities can be with elderly.  There’s a reason so few states approve such lax euthanasia.  The Benelux countries are in the crosshairs on many levels and are not the countries to emulate on this.  

Edited August 16, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Goddess]

As a trained and certified death doula, this makes me very sad.

This is not what MAID is for.

[blackbird]

50 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

If it’s not a lie, then it is extreme ignorance to think there are people who are not suffering with extreme pain near the end of their life.  
 

I said there were pain killing medications.  I agree there may be suffering with extreme pain near the end of their life.   However, this does not justify going against God's clear command "thou shalt not kill" in the Bible.  It is very cut and dried.  Nobody has the right to take human life by MAID.  God's command is not something you can ignore or put aside because of pain.  That's not how God thinks.  He understands humans have pain and I am sure cares about them.  But he considers human life sacred.  He created humans in his image and only he can end life in his time.  We have no right to play God.

[blackbird]

54 minutes ago, dialamah said:

My mother was on fentanyl patches during her extended death; she was still in significant pain.  They couldn't give her anything more or stronger because it would have killed her faster.  

I understand.  I cannot comment on individual situations.  It is sad that people must suffer in life and in their last days.  All I can say is I would point them to Jesus Christ as the only Savior and encourage them to trust in him.  If they believe Jesus died for them and receive him as their savior, they will go to heaven.  That's what I believe.  I cannot condone killing in these situations.  It goes against what God taught.

Incidentally my dear mother died of bone cancer which is very painful I believe.  I was with her the last 24 or 36 hours until she passed away.  As I recall she was very quiet and calm during that period.  She may have been in a partial coma. I don't know.  I think doctors can put people in partial or full comas if they decide it is necessary.

Edited August 16, 2022 by blackbird

[DogOnPorch]

The Nazis started with killing the mentally ill and infirm. Nobody noticed at first as they were very low-key about that particular action. Actions are what the Nazis called mass killing...language manipulation. Another feature of their ilk.

[TreeBeard]

12 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

The Nazis started with killing the mentally ill and infirm. Nobody noticed at first as they were very low-key about that particular action. Actions are what the Nazis called mass killing...language manipulation. Another feature of their ilk.

The Nazis killed people, therefor, Canadians choosing how they die at the end of their life is the same as Nazis. 
 

All aboard the Crazy Train!!

[Nationalist]

This is gruesome.

[Army Guy]

12 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

You clearly haven’t read the criteria for MAID. 

Clearly you have not read those circumstances of people who have already been approved and put down like your pet...I agree if you have severe pain and your terminal giver... but when a women who could not find an affordable apartment to suit her needs then i question it, or someone who is depressed, or just contemplating suicide thats when you argument falls apart. 

[Army Guy]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

If someone is determined.enough.to.die, can always commit suicide.  If that's what they choose, why not let them go with the least amount of trauma to their family by giving them the chance to say goodbye. 

Not to mention, the time between applying for MAID and actually going through with it can allow people to change their minds.  

Well thats a good excuse, they could always take their own life, so why not...most Suicide leave notes of video saying goodbye.

I wonder if your opinion would be different if it was your son or daughter. that could not find an apartment, or was depressed, suffering from PTSD. 

Life is the most valuable thing we have , it should be protected at all costs, and if your in severe pain and there is nothing the medical system can do for you, sure I'm all for it. but once we start making this decisions wantonly then there is an issue.

[Army Guy]

42 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

The Nazis killed people, therefor, Canadians choosing how they die at the end of their life is the same as Nazis. 
 

All aboard the Crazy Train!!

So people making this decisions for mentally ill persons thats ok.

[TreeBeard]

58 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

but when a women who could not find an affordable apartment to suit her needs

Is “apartment hunting failure” listed as a reason where one could use medical assisted suicide in Canada?

[TreeBeard]

49 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

So people making this decisions for mentally ill persons thats ok.

Mental capacity and the ability to make such a decision is judged on individual cases.  If one doesn’t have the mental capacity to make such a decision, then they’re not eligible.  
 

Why haven’t you read the criteria?  It’s clear you haven’t.  

[blackbird]

This is an appalling report and is just another example of the dangers inherent in the medical assistance in dying program.

quote

Canadian military veterans and advocates say the case of a veteran being offered medical assistance in dying by a Veterans Affairs Canada (VAC) employee should prompt an inquiry into the agency's ability to address the mental health of former soldiers.    Unquote

Of course this should be fully investigated and determination made as to whether the Veterans Affairs Canada employee acted appropriately and action taken.

Offering people in need of mental health support assistance to die is beyond reason and completely unacceptable by any measure.

Assisted dying offer puts Veterans Affairs’ mental health supports in doubt: advocates (msn.com)

Proponents of this vile, evil program will continue to be exposed by new revelations as time goes on.  They cannot fight against God and expect to win.  Nobody can.

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by blackbird

[Army Guy]

6 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Is “apartment hunting failure” listed as a reason where one could use medical assisted suicide in Canada?

She has already been accepted and has been put down, so ya i guess it is on the list.

[Army Guy]

5 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Mental capacity and the ability to make such a decision is judged on individual cases.  If one doesn’t have the mental capacity to make such a decision, then they’re not eligible.  
 

Why haven’t you read the criteria?  It’s clear you haven’t.  

Blackbird already beat me to it, a soldier that has PTSD, was asked if that was the direction he wanted to go...Why ask if he does not qualify... The recent changes to the bill does include people that are or have mental health issues, so who decides for those people guardian or the person with mental health issues ?

[TreeBeard]

17 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

She has already been accepted and has been put down, so ya i guess it is on the list.

Sure it is…