Mandatory Covid vaccination in Canada now a possibility.

[Zeitgeist]

Interesting that even the WHO is toning down the vaccine zeal:

https://apple.news/A05mBAcHgTOy7hhFuXivO0w

 

[dialamah]

48 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Interesting that even the WHO is toning down the vaccine zeal:

https://apple.news/A05mBAcHgTOy7hhFuXivO0w

 

This does not say what you imply, nor is it news.  It's apparent to anyone with any common sense that a vaccine developed for one strain of a disease will be less effective against different strains.  That's why we get flu shot every year, instead of  one that lasts forever.

 

[Accountability Now]

1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Only looking at the raw numbers of vaccinated and unvaccinated hospitalized COVID-19 patients is misleading:

The only thing misleading here is your post. Not sure if you are even aware of it or if you are deliberately propagating this BS so I will walk you through this for your benefit. 

As per the claim, the data starts December 14, 2020 when the vaccine rollout allegedly starts. However, take a look at the vaccination curve on the national level:

You will note that although the program started in December of 2020, a significant number of Canadians didn't even receive their first dose until June.  It wasn't until the end of July that most people got their second dose.

Now lets look at the hospitalizations:

 

Visually speaking, the bulk of the hospitalizations occurred in the two middle waves which stared Nov 1, 2020 and ended roughly Jun2 2021....right when vaccination percentages started to actually be a factor.  The death total is very similar:

 

Again, look at the yellow section which are deaths included in their data but all occurring at a time when vaccination levels were quite low. 

 

The bottom line is they use stats like this to add to the fear mongering and appeal to people like you who blindly following thinking.....wow, the vaccines are perfect. The best comparison of this stat would be to measure the hospitalizations and deaths from a period where the effects can actually be compared and NOT including statistics from a time when vaccines weren't even a factor. 

 

[Accountability Now]

14 minutes ago, dialamah said:

This does not say what you imply, nor is it news.  It's apparent to anyone with any common sense that a vaccine developed for one strain of a disease will be less effective against different strains.  That's why we get flu shot every year, instead of  one that lasts forever.

 

That is why we will again be chasing our tails on this (much like the flu shot).  Pfizer is saying the Omicron vaccine will be ready in March, probably ready for roll out by April/June. By then Omicron will have come and gone and we will be onto the next variant. 

[myata]

What is referred to as "vaccines" here is not preventing infection and transmission. It may reduce it to some, not very well known extent, but very clearly from many recorded outbreaks in fully vaccinated places, nowhere sufficient to justify their promoted function in preventing spread or even "ending pandemic". In all previous cases, the protection against new variants was even lower, and it is impossible to predict random mutations that appear on a regular basis.

So what is not being said here, or is obscured by promises of a quick end is an indefinite chain of mRNA boosting each time a new variant emerges only to keep health system from collapsing, likely for decades. There was a flu epidemics in 1918 and in 2008 that is the timescales at play here. Why we are not talking about it, what it could to the population immunity, about sensible and realistic exit paths and strategies, I simply cannot imagine. Maybe it's not the same society anymore. Or maybe, a different reality.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

This does not say what you imply, nor is it news.  It's apparent to anyone with any common sense that a vaccine developed for one strain of a disease will be less effective against different strains.  That's why we get flu shot every year, instead of  one that lasts forever.

 

I get it, vaccines raw raw raw.  I get them and I don’t have a superstitious fear of them.  The article states that more analysis is required of the immune response of vaccinated people to Omicron.  It’s substantially lower than for prior variants, yet Omicron itself is substantially milder, which highlights the importance of looking at all methods of boosting immunity and treatments, not just vaccination. In other words, follow the data as blind faith serves no one.

I also think it’s extremely important to remember that we don’t just live our lives in accordance with success in one metric, eliminating Covid, for example.  Our anti-Covid measures must be balanced with the whole gamut of other human needs and wants, especially since we can’t eliminate it.  Otherwise the cure becomes worse than the disease.  I think we’re in that situation currently.  Lots of borrowed money and masking and shutting down of businesses, education, and socialization to achieve an outcome that isn’t very good and is probably counter-productive to the overall well-being of humanity.

Interesting that India, with fewer government measures and a less vaccinated population, is now a lower travel risk than Canada.  It makes one wonder if these waves now are just the cyclical ebb and flow of an endemic disease.  

Edited January 11, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, Accountability Now said:

The bottom line is they use stats like this to add to the fear mongering and appeal to people like you who blindly following thinking.....wow, the vaccines are perfect. The best comparison of this stat would be to measure the hospitalizations and deaths from a period where the effects can actually be compared and NOT including statistics from a time when vaccines weren't even a factor. 

 

You sound like you read Bill Gates' book "How To Lie With Statistics" but are using the information for good, not evil. 

[Aristides]

32 minutes ago, Goddess said:

You sound like you read Bill Gates' book "How To Lie With Statistics" but are using the information for good, not evil. 

Gates didn't write that book, there is just a picture of him with a stack books he recommended sitting on his desk, That book was one of them and it was written in the 1950's by a guy called Darryl Huff. It took me five minutes to find that out. If you thought that he wanted to lie with statistics and get away with it, would he recommend you read a book on how to do it? Geesh. 

Quote

"I picked this one up after seeing it on a Wall Street Journal list of good books for investors. It was first published in 1954, but it doesn't feel dated (aside from a few anachronistic examples - it has been a long time since bread cost 5 cents a loaf in the United States). In fact, I'd say it's more relevant than ever. One chapter shows you how visuals can be used to exaggerate trends and give distorted comparisons. It's a timely reminder, given how often infographics show up in your Facebook and Twitter feeds these days. A great introduction to the use of statistics, and a great refresher for anyone who's already well versed in it."

Bill Gates

Edited January 11, 2022 by Aristides

[myata]

In addition to statistics we can also use natural instruments aka: eyes, ears and that gray matter they are (usually or should be) connected to. Hearing daily about outbreaks in totally vaccinated places, not one or two isolated but so common that there's no need to test and stay home anymore, we know that these treatments for all the good they do are not and cannot be "vaccines" in the same sense as we knew before.

If an injection provided a 30% reduction in obesity should it be made mandatory to prevent disproportionate use of health resources due to related conditions? What if it had to be repeated every so many months for the best effect? With some side effects and unknown longer term effects? Astounding is that only some months back we would have laughed it off as some dark fantasy. And look.

[Goddess]

38 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Gates didn't write that book, there is just a picture of him with a stack books he recommended sitting on his desk,

Whatever.  I'm not interested enough in it to see who wrote it.

Weird how you feel the need to research a minor error like who wrote which book when where and how, but not the need to research what medical interventions you take into your body. ?

[Aristides]

12 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Whatever.  I'm not interested enough in it to see who wrote it.

Weird how you feel the need to research a minor error like who wrote which book when where and how, but not the need to research what medical interventions you take into your body. ?

It isn't a minor error when you are accusing Gates of writing it and insinuating he has some ulterior motive in doing so. It's just the kind of un fact checked conspiracy BS you a continually spreading.

[Goddess]

4 minutes ago, Aristides said:

It isn't a minor error when you are accusing Gates of writing it and insinuating he has some ulterior motive in doing so. It's just the kind of un fact checked conspiracy BS you a continually spreading.

I was actually using the book itself as a joke/compliment to Accountability but OK. ?

Who wrote it, when, why and how wasn't the point.

I understand most things fly over your head.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Goddess

[Aristides]

It was the point. As far as you are concerned Gates is the spawn of the devil and together with George Soros is responsible for every conspiracy on the planet.

You got caught and don't like it.

[Goddess]

3 minutes ago, Aristides said:

It was the point. As far as you are concerned Gates is the spawn of the devil and together with George Soros is responsible for every conspiracy on the planet.

You got caught and don't like it.

Really couldn't care less who wrote it.

Great research, though.  Nice to see.

[Goddess]

6 minutes ago, Aristides said:

You got caught and don't like it.

Care to address some of the lies you've been caught in?  I believe WestCanMan has been asking you for quite some time now.

[Goddess]

Here's another one for you:

If you think things are bad now, Rumor has it the next variant plays the bagpipes.

Fact-check that.

[CITIZEN_2015]

3 hours ago, Accountability Now said:

 

 

The bottom line is they use stats like this to add to the fear mongering and appeal to people like you who blindly following thinking.....wow, the vaccines are perfect. The best comparison of this stat would be to measure the hospitalizations and deaths from a period where the effects can actually be compared and NOT including statistics from a time when vaccines weren't even a factor. 

 

And WHY on earth would they do that???? All the governments in the world, a great majority of scientists, experts in the field, our own elected governments.... They are all in this united conspiracy theory of yours to get the poison vaccines into our arms!!!!!!!!!!!

[WestCanMan]

21 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

And WHY on earth would they do that???? All the governments in the world, a great majority of scientists, experts in the field, our own elected governments.... They are all in this united conspiracy theory of yours to get the poison vaccines into our arms!!!!!!!!!!!

Lots of reasons.

1 Vaccines are really the only safe recommendation, because the vaccines' makers can't be sued.

2 Big Pharma is one of the biggest, most generous lobbyists in the world, and it's legal for them to offer compensation to Drs for services rendered. Not a real conflict of interest though, right? The guy who's putting a serum into your arm, receiving money from the people who made it, and they don't have to tell you about it? [If you look up the definition of 'conflict of interest', that's pretty much the epitome of it.]

3 Did you ever wonder why our 'leaders' are opting for the 'entire country, thrice/year' demi-vaxxes instead of using therapeutics on a case by case basis? Which one do you think is more cost effective for taxpayers? Which one is more lucrative for vaxx companies?  Which one frees us from injecting children with a serum that offers no benefits to them? 

4 It does seem like a whole lot of lying and conniving, but it also coincides with a lot of gov't/MSM/Big Tech disinformation and slander. Why do those three continually lie to us all, and punish skeptcs for non-conformity, only to move the goalpasts back and admit that the skeptics were right? Did covid come from a pangolin? Are the vaccines safe? Do they stop people from dying? Did HCQ kill people? How long did they know about the lab leak? Why do they refuse to investigate the lab leak or talk about why/how it happened? This #4 is gonna be tough for you, because you have no answers and you're afraid to think about it.

 

The best reason for getting vaccinated is this: We all know now that covid is a bio-weapon, and it's possible that our bodies actually do need some kind of a countermeasure from our own BSL4 labs to combat it.

The best reason for not getting vaccinated is this: the people who were somehow promoting the vaccines' safety and efficacy with great certainty long in advance of their trials are the same people who were lying and slandering therapeutics and other possible remedies that whole time, and they were also complicit in covering up the source of the outbreak long after common sense and science had compiled a rock-solid case against them.

 

"My level of distrust for the people that I have known to be liars for a very long time is fairly high." - WestCanMan 

[eyeball]

25 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

The best reason for getting vaccinated is this: We all know now that covid is a bio-weapon, and it's possible that our bodies actually do need some kind of a countermeasure from our own BSL4 labs to combat it.

 

"I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids." - WestCanMan 

FIFY

[myata]

1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

And WHY on earth would they do that????

An easy, razor answer would be a natural law of the least (bureaucratic) action. They have an instant solution provided by someone else (granted not free, but it's like free when paid from someone else's pocket, ne c'est pas?) without minimal responsibility for the outcome (watch all time highs, live, rerun of the first and second phases with no "vaccines"). And added bonus, the beloved work, life filled with meaning and purpose: managing little people, writing daily ordinances, policies, rules and requirements. Can you go wrong?

The first SARS epidemic was in 2002. Travel from Wuhan is not a problem. Just put it on in the washroom and you'll be safe. Yes, we know.

Edited January 11, 2022 by myata

[Winston]

4 minutes ago, myata said:

Can you go wrong?

This is why we must enforce 100% vaccination. Because how else do the people responsible keep their positions, how else can politicians, medical advisors, doctors and health officers recover. They must be unquestionably right, because being wrong means termination of their position, social status and private gains.

[myata]

1 minute ago, Winston said:

They must be unquestionably right, because being wrong means termination of their position, social status and private gains.

You described a negative feedback loop: the more obvious it is that it's not working, the more effort you put in to not notice. And all the way to the continuity break then with luck, a commission and a belated apology in some decades.

And all over again. But wait now we're working with population-level immunity. No, can't go wrong, never did.

[WestCanMan]

57 minutes ago, eyeball said:

"I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids." - eyeball

That's what you actually said, I quoted you directly with the 'quote' feature here, and I'm glad you finally spoke honestly because it seems like there's something that you need to get off of your chest.

I actually said this: 

Quote

"My level of distrust for the people that I have known to be liars for a very long time is fairly high." - WestCanMan 

and while I didn't craft that brilliant prose for one so unworthy as yourself, the shoe definitely fits. Grow up. 

[Accountability Now]

2 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

And WHY on earth would they do that???? All the governments in the world, a great majority of scientists, experts in the field, our own elected governments.... They are all in this united conspiracy theory of yours to get the poison vaccines into our arms!!!!!!!!!!!

First...are you willing to admit that the stats they provided are flawed from a statistical point of view?  If so, do you think its ok for our government to be flaunting manipulated stats?

As per your question....I get the reason why the entire scientific community and governments wanted to vaccinated everyone at the start. Information and data was scarce and no one was really sure of what this was.  Now that we are entering round 2 (round 1 was always going to be 2 doses), we now have data not just on Covid but also on what the capabilities and the inabilities of the vaccines. 

So why wouldn't the governments switch their approach to a more focused vaccination group? Because its always easier to get the whole group to do it rather than singling out unhealthy people.  If the vaccines stop spread and stop severe infection then they look like heroes. However in this case it did not stop spread nor did it stop serious illness for those that took it. So when it comes time for Round 2, there will be alot more people not eager to take the booster including those that have pre-existing conditions (and those are the people we want taking it). 

I don't agree or disagree with the various theories out there as to why the governments push these. For Canada, our health care is publicly funded, so if shit goes sideways then the government is responsible (hence the ultra proactive position of Canadian goverments). Whereas in the US, the health care is private and is not a responsibility of the State. That is where you see forward thinking governments actually taking the more focused approach. 

[myata]

2 hours ago, Accountability Now said:

so if shit goes sideways then the government is responsible

Except on an unfortunate occasion, way more of it (and maybe more than we could handle) could go sideways once unaccountable bureaucrats isolated from the reality into the illusion that paper managements equals effective management of a complex and novel condition begin to make far-reaching choices and decisions for the entire society without thinking much of possible consequences. There's no visible evidence, none that someone, anyone is thinking, analyzing, investigating and evaluating possible consequences here. And this is plain scary when they begin to play on this level.