Ukraine says Russia is going to attack. But why is it still shelling its own citizens in the East of the country?

[George MArron]

Over 8 years the Ukrainian government kills civilians in Donbass. Kiev keeps on saying that Russia is going to attack Ukraine. But it was Luhansk and Donetsk militia, who countered the Ukrainian army and defends people in Donbass.
In case you missed it: a few days ago over 400 bodies of killed Ukrainian soldiers were found in mass graves. They all died in combat actions in 2014 as DPR and LPR militia repelled the large-scale attack of Ukrainian army and Nazi-led volunteer battalions. But Ukrainian government doesn't want to join the process of searching the fallen soldiers and taking them back home. 
Amid the narratives of Western and Ukrainian mass media about Russian aggression there is a reality showing us that war in Donbass continues and civilians die from Ukrainian army shelling. But Kiev keeps on saying that it's Russia who is an aggressor.

[Queenmandy85]

Russian propaganda.

[myata]

Russian stooges showing sincere concern for citizens of neighboring independent countries, never a good sign.

Edited December 1, 2021 by myata

[ChristopherCross]

Russian propoganda! China is evil! The Vaccines are for your health! Mexicans are poor!  Europeans are samrt! Area 51 doesn't exist! UAPs are a nothing burger!

 

[Maksym Sobipan]

Of course, it is russian propaganda. There were everything good in Doneck and Luhansk before russia attacked Ukraine. We lived in peace till 2014 year, when the russia annexed Crimea. Russia want destroy Ukraine as the independence country. Russia it is last empire which does not imagine of his future without of the occupation the neighboring countries. Ukrainian Donbas it not first point of russian aggression. Before Ukraine, Russia began the wars in South Ossetia and Abkhazia of Georgia, in Transnistria of Moldova, in Karabakh of Azerbaijan, performed the lots of war crimes against of civilian in Syria. So for now Russian it is the FIRST TERRORISTIC COUNTRY of the world.

[500channelsurfer]

Russia would get away with a Ukrainian invasion (if successful) for many reasons. Historically, Russia has been the dominant inland power in Eastern Europe in multiple different forms. The self-identity of the post-communist Eastern Bloc is still a set of countries separate from the Western and more pro-democracy Western European states and other democratic countries. Russia has historically exerted influence over Eastern Europe through trading and politics even aside from the USSR, such as was the case in the Russian Empire of Czar Nichols II and The Commonwealth of Independent States post-Soviet co-operation.

NATO is still seen as as a Western enemy, unfortunately, by many in the former Eastern Bloc. I sincerely believe that this didn't need to be so, but mistrust resulting from many peripheral issues during the Cold War and history is still engrained on both sides. Also, Eastern Europe has a greater historical tendency toward dictatorship than Western Europe has tendencies toward democracy. European Union weakness is real, as is proven by Brexit, and also reinforces anti-Western sentiment in Eastern Europe.

As Russia again slides more toward dictatorial government, incompatibility with NATO is amplified. It is only natural for Russia to then put anti-NATO pressure on neighbouring countries. 

NATO is geographically removed from Ukraine; its countries are currently pre-occupied with migrant and Covid issues; no NATO country currently has an expansionist or pro-war head of state; NATO countries have become war-averse following historically recent adventures ranging from Iraq and Afghanistan to Yugoslavia to Vietnam; NATO countries are largely indebted and their current political climate bounds them to economics over geopolitics; the perception of Ukraine being an Eastern and Russia-associated region still persists. NATO is definitely not looking for a war, and even less so in such a perceived "Eastern" country as Ukraine.

Ukraine itself, whether or not it is actively violent in its eastern territory, is quite divided ethnically and eastern Ukraine definitely contains Russian support. Ukrainian elections have resulted in both pro-Russian and pro-Western governments. Russia would be able to exploit pro-Russian sentiment as support during any invasion.

The alternate threat of sanctions instead of war by NATO is not very powerful. Russia supplies too much of the European demand for fossil fuels to be largely cut off from that market. There is not enough oil production elsewhere to make up the difference and so no boycott will happen. Russian exports to NATO countries apart from fossil fuels are too low for any boycott to make much of a difference. Russia is or should be able to keep geopolitical support for itself in many Middle Eastern countries as well as China.

Could Russia win such an invasion? Would they even do so and want to occupy a western Ukraine that will stay anti-Russia, and become a possible fifth column as it was during WWII in the event of any conflict? I believe any conflict is more likely to lead to a successful annexation of eastern Ukraine should Russia decide to go ahead. However, Russia would not bleed itself for the entirety of western Ukraine as NATO clashes would become very costly to both sides should Russia make its way too far west into Ukraine.

[Nationalist]

On 12/25/2021 at 1:03 PM, Maksym Sobipan said:

Of course, it is russian propaganda. There were everything good in Doneck and Luhansk before russia attacked Ukraine. We lived in peace till 2014 year, when the russia annexed Crimea. Russia want destroy Ukraine as the independence country. Russia it is last empire which does not imagine of his future without of the occupation the neighboring countries. Ukrainian Donbas it not first point of russian aggression. Before Ukraine, Russia began the wars in South Ossetia and Abkhazia of Georgia, in Transnistria of Moldova, in Karabakh of Azerbaijan, performed the lots of war crimes against of civilian in Syria. So for now Russian it is the FIRST TERRORISTIC COUNTRY of the world.

Yup. Some of this is rather true. Some of it...is a bit of a warp on reality. For instance, Crimea held a referendum on which country they wanted to be part of. Guess who won.

I'm no Russian advocate, and I do know of the Russian yearnings for The Empire, but full context is often important. 

[-TSS-]

The troll-factory seems to have its representatives even on this site.

[myata]

I guess if the Nazis bothered with "referenda" in the occupied countries, it would have all been legit, yes comrade?

Edited January 1, 2022 by myata

[Nationalist]

On 1/1/2022 at 8:36 AM, myata said:

I guess if the Nazis bothered with "referenda" in the occupied countries, it would have all been legit, yes comrade?

But they didn't. 

However the Crimeans did. I know you don't like that but you can't hope to assign your beliefs to Crimeans...or Ukrainians.

My best advise for NATO...stay outta this one. The Russians living in east Ukraine will settle it...as it should be.

[CITIZEN_2015]

Damn Russia. This country or nation has done nothing but harm to the whole world. Not to mention killing of millions of their own people post revolution, just a look at their recent aggression, military invasion of Hungary in 1956, military invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1967, military invasion of Afghanistan in 1980, and now they plan to invade defenseless nation of Ukraine. They are also allied with the most murderous regimes in the world like Bashir Assad of Syria and islamic republic regime imposed on defenseless Iranian nation.

Death to Russia. I hope this country is completely and totally destroyed from the face of this planet and everyone will be better off.   

Edited January 20, 2022 by CITIZEN_2015

[Nationalist]

9 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Damn Russia. This country or nation has done nothing but harm to the whole world. Not to mention killing of millions of their own people post revolution, just a look at their recent aggression, military invasion of Hungary in 1856, military invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1967, military invasion of Afghanistan in 1980, and now they plan to invade defenseless nation of Ukraine. They are also allied with the most murderous regimes in the world like Bashir Assad of Syria and islamic republic regime imposed on defenseless Iranian nation.

Death to Russia. I hope this country is completely and totally destroyed from the face of this planet and everyone will be better off.   

Lol...the intelligentsia speaks...

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Nationalist said:

Lol...the intelligentsia speaks...

 

The best lack all conviction while the worst speak with passionate intensity. 

---Yeats

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

The best lack all conviction while the worst speak with passionate intensity. 

---Yeats

Who might the best be? 

[CITIZEN_2015]

Just review the history of this damn nation, Russians. They either invaded their neighbors and annexed them or crushed them or threatened the whole world for half a century with nuclear destruction or internally suppressed their own people and killed millions of them and they are always allied with terrorist regimes in Africa, Middle East or South East Asia. 

[DogOnPorch]

2 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Who might the best be? 

 

Yeats was writing about WW1 in The Second Coming...still applies.

The best are those saying no to war...but do little if anything to stop it for various reasons. Pretty much all of us.

The worst are those we see harping-on like war with Russia is just The Great Game Pt II. We'll exchange some formal musket shots across a sunlit battlefield then the diplomats will take over and teach those Russians who is the boss. It's a romantic view of the whole thing...

35 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Just review the history of this damn nation, Russians. They either invaded their neighbors and annexed them or crushed them or threatened the whole world for half a century with nuclear destruction or internally suppressed their own people and killed millions of them and they are always allied with terrorist regimes in Africa, Middle East or South East Asia. 

Would be an example of worst...

War can't come too soon for the REMFs.

Be aware this is also Russia. It is completely independent. Needs no outside commands. From standstill to launch is under thirty seconds. Solid fuel...so none of that 'waiting to put fuel it' BS....away she goes in a flash. Either one GIANT...and I mean big...warhead...or smaller (lol) MIRVs. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT-2PM2_Topol-M

A really bad day for those on the other end. Hiroshima was about 15 kilotons...this fellow has a yield of one megaton on the high end...or several 100 kiloton MIRVs blanketing the region. Depends on what it's doing...

You don't have one.

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Yeats was writing about WW1 in The Second Coming...still applies.

The best are those saying no to war...but do little if anything to stop it for various reasons. Pretty much all of us.

The worst are those we see harping-on like war with Russia is just The Great Game Pt II. We'll exchange some formal musket shots across a sunlit battlefield then the diplomats will take over and teach those Russians who is the boss. It's a romantic view of the whole thing...

Would be an example of worst...

War can't come too soon for the REMFs.

Be aware this is also Russia. It is completely independent. Needs no outside commands. From standstill to launch is under thirty seconds. Solid fuel...so none of that 'waiting to put fuel it' BS....away she goes in a flash. Either one GIANT...and I mean big...warhead...or smaller (lol) MIRVs. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT-2PM2_Topol-M

A really bad day for those on the other end. Hiroshima was about 15 kilotons...this fellow has a yield of one megaton on the high end...or several 100 kiloton MIRVs blanketing the region. Depends on what it's doing...

You don't have one.

Ya that sounds reasonable. The Americans should have listened to Trump when he said Russia should be a US ally.

[BeaverFever]

On 1/20/2022 at 2:22 PM, Nationalist said:

Ya that sounds reasonable. The Americans should have listened to Trump when he said Russia should be a US ally.

Nothing is more un-American than Trump’s desire to be an ally of Russia against the West.

 

This week he’s praising Russian aggression:

 

I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, ‘This is genius.’ Putin declares a big portion of the Ukraine, of Ukraine, Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that’s wonderful.

The praise didn’t end there. 

“So Putin is now saying, ‘It’s independent,’ a large section of Ukraine," Trump continued. "I said, ‘How smart is that?’ And he’s going to go in and be a peacekeeper. That’s the strongest peace force. We could use that on our southern border. That’s the strongest peace force I’ve ever seen."

He then called Putin a “very savvy” person whom he claimed to know “very, very well.” 

[Nationalist]

26 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Nothing is more un-American than Trump’s desire to be an ally of Russia against the West.

 

This week he’s praising Russian aggression:

 

I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, ‘This is genius.’ Putin declares a big portion of the Ukraine, of Ukraine, Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that’s wonderful.

The praise didn’t end there. 

“So Putin is now saying, ‘It’s independent,’ a large section of Ukraine," Trump continued. "I said, ‘How smart is that?’ And he’s going to go in and be a peacekeeper. That’s the strongest peace force. We could use that on our southern border. That’s the strongest peace force I’ve ever seen."

He then called Putin a “very savvy” person whom he claimed to know “very, very well.” 

Oh stop blowing smoke.

Why would an alliance with Russia be unamerican and how would that alliance be against "The West"? You have no idea what the hell you're talking about. 

Do you know the Ukrainians were on Hitler's side? Do you know that most of the Ukrainians on that western border, consider themselves Russian? Do you know anything at all about Russians and their culture?

What's that? Not a damn thing?

Why don't we discuss something you know something about? May I suggest crocheting? 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Nationalist

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Oh stop blowing smoke.

Why would an alliance with Russia be unamerican and how would that alliance be against "The West"? You have no idea what the hell you're talking about. 

Do you know the Ukrainians were on Hitler's side? Do you know that most of the Ukrainians on that western border, consider themselves Russian? Do you know anything at all about Russians and their culture?

What's that? Not a damn thing?

Why don't we discuss something you know something about? May I suggest crocheting? 

First of all, you are wrong, ethnic Russians do not make up the majority in Donbass and Luhansk, they are 39% and 38% of the population respectively. They are a large minority but ethnic Ukrainians are still more than half the population. 
 

Second None of what you say is relevant or justifies Putin’s pending invasion and annexation which is against all international law.   WW2 was almost a century ago dude!  Are you really pretending that has anything to do with what’s happening today?  They sided with Hitler against Stalin, so did many Eastern Europeans and Yugoslavians who chafed under the yoke of Stalin’s communist acolytes

Putin and Russia are enemies of the West and Trump has thrown his lot in with them which is un-American period  

Now go ahead, Komrad,  continue your apologizing for Dictator Putin and prove everything we’ve said about democracy-hating Republicans is true.  If you can’t understand why that’s un-American then nobody can help you. 

[Nationalist]

3 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

First of all, you are wrong, ethnic Russians do not make up the majority in Donbass and Luhansk, they are 39% and 38% of the population respectively. They are a large minority but ethnic Ukrainians are still more than half the population. 
 

Second None of what you say is relevant or justifies Putin’s pending invasion and annexation which is against all international law.   WW2 was almost a century ago dude!  Are you really pretending that has anything to do with what’s happening today?  They sided with Hitler against Stalin, so did many Eastern Europeans and Yugoslavians who chafed under the yoke of Stalin’s communist acolytes

Putin and Russia are enemies of the West and Trump has thrown his lot in with them which is un-American period  

Now go ahead, Komrad,  continue your apologizing for Dictator Putin and prove everything we’ve said about democracy-hating Republicans is true.  If you can’t understand why that’s un-American then nobody can help you. 

*giggle*

Well you certainly can't. 

The Russians have recognized those 2 provinces as autonomous. The Ukrainian was part of Russia until recently. In fact, the first Russian dynasty was...in the Ukrainian. 

Russia has been carving chunks out of Ukraine for years now. First in 2014 while Barry was POTUS. now in 2022 while Ol' Joe is POTUS. I guess that's how Democrats gauge Americanism eh? Week and impedant?

Democracy-hating Republicans???

Putin has been taking advantage of week Democrats for years. China will start soon too. What sweeping generalization can I make...I know...

I guess all democrats and Libbies are idiots and cowards eh?

[PIK]

Well it has started.

[BeaverFever]

10 hours ago, Nationalist said:

*giggle*

Well you certainly can't. 

The Russians have recognized those 2 provinces as autonomous. The Ukrainian was part of Russia until recently. In fact, the first Russian dynasty was...in the Ukrainian. 

Russia has been carving chunks out of Ukraine for years now. First in 2014 while Barry was POTUS. now in 2022 while Ol' Joe is POTUS. I guess that's how Democrats gauge Americanism eh? Week and impedant?

Democracy-hating Republicans???

Putin has been taking advantage of week Democrats for years. China will start soon too. What sweeping generalization can I make...I know...

I guess all democrats and Libbies are idiots and cowards eh?

What a pathetic clueless Russian propagandist you are. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and as such Russia has no authority to unilaterally declare parts of it independent or autonomous or to  “carve chunks out of it” as it pleases. ZERO.  I’m well aware of Russia and Ukraine’s shared history but that’s completely irrelevant, none of that entitles Russia to invade it as it pleases, how ignorant are you?

Putin’s aggression towards his neighbours actually started when he annexed parts of Georgia in 2008 under George W Bush under similar false pretences of defending ethnic Russians.  But I bet you didn’t know that because the sum total if knowledge is limited to whatever  your pro-Russian conservative propaganda has covered in the last 2 weeks.

 I already caught you spreading false info that ethnic Russians are the majority in those annexed areas, what  lies will you spread next?
 

Putin  is a hostile dictator, no wonder Republicans and Trump Republicans especially are so fond of him

Edited February 24, 2022 by BeaverFever

[West]

Put a globalist in the White House and this is what happens 

[Nationalist]

3 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

What a pathetic clueless Russian propagandist you are. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and as such Russia has no authority to unilaterally declare parts of it independent or autonomous or to  “carve chunks out of it” as it pleases. ZERO.  I’m well aware of Russia and Ukraine’s shared history but that’s completely irrelevant, none of that entitles Russia to invade it as it pleases, how ignorant are you?

Putin’s aggression towards his neighbours actually started when he annexed parts of Georgia in 2008 under George W Bush under similar false pretences of defending ethnic Russians.  But I bet you didn’t know that because the sum total if knowledge is limited to whatever  your pro-Russian conservative propaganda has covered in the last 2 weeks.  Putin  is a hostile dictator, no wonder Republicans and Trump Republicans especially are so fond of him

Once again we see that you are incapable of sticking to the facts and truth. Why is anyone surprised?

I didn't say that Russia is entitled to anything. I said the Russian empire started in the Ukrainian lands. I also said that Putin is well aware of who the leader of the USA, and by extension NATO, and takes advantage of the week willed ones that come along. Interestingly enough...they all are Democrats.

On August 26th, Russia broke the French-brokered deal by recognizing Georgia’s break-away regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent countries. For the past ten years, Russia has occupied Abkhazia and South Ossetia in violation of the ceasefire agreement.

Trump Republicans...favour actions by their governing bodies be taken to their benefit...not the benefit of other people in other nations.! I don't know Putin, so I don't like or really dislike the person. I do, however, respect his judgment. He appears to know when he can make moves, by gauging the fibre of the opposition. A skill...I might add...not terribly present in Barry or Ol' Joe. As for George...we both know that the USA had no stomach for more wars in 2008...the year Barrack Hussein Obama was elected POTUS.

Please stop this intellectual flailing about. Its embarrassing to watch.