Doug Ford and Covid 19

[dialamah]

13 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Fanatics and virus slaves artificially inflated the numbers in the guise of "data correction", at exactly the most vulnerable time for the public. Right when kids are going back to school. I provided the source links. These were deaths in May. There's no reason to list them in October. It's inexcusable.

When should they correct themselves?

[OftenWrong]

17 minutes ago, dialamah said:

When should they correct themselves?

Immediately, and by putting the data onto the correct date. Otherwise, it is not a correction at all. It is an error.

 

[dialamah]

3 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Immediately, and by putting the data onto the correct date. Otherwise, it is not a correction at all. It is an error.

I don't suppose you've ever made an error, and not noticed for a few hours/days/weeks/months, eh?

Yes, it is an error.  Corrected.  

Yes, you can question about whether they should have adjusted historical data or included it in current data.  When I was bookkeeping, if we discovered an error in  that was made in the previous year, we couldn't go back and change the previous year, but there had to be a correction made - so it would be made in the current year. I don't know the system for tracking deaths, but it could be there is some reason, aside from your paranoid assumptions, that meant counting it in the current month was necessary. 

And somehow I think that if they'd gone back and adjusted numbers in previous months, you'd find fault with that based on the idea that this is some scam to scare people. 

Ultimately, though, it's not really important.  The total number of deaths won't be known for some time, if ever.  They're still guesstimating that the 1918 flu killed between 20 million and 50 million people over 3 years.  We'll never know for sure, and we won't know for a long time yet just how deadly it is or isn't, or what the long term effects might be for some people.   Ranting about how the government/media/whatever is trying to 'scare' us, as people actually get sick and die, is pretty dumb honestly.  Why does it bother you so much that most people want to take precautions to ensure they don't get sick and die, or don't infect their parents/grandparents and kill them?  

 

[OftenWrong]

47 minutes ago, dialamah said:

And somehow I think that if they'd gone back and adjusted numbers in previous months, you'd find fault with that based on the idea that this is some scam to scare people. 

No not at all, because then it would be a proper correction. Not one that would confuse us about the current outbreak. This is data on a web site, not some archaic bookkeeping software.

Don't "think" your projections on me. It is pointless. Not conducive to intelligent debate.

[OftenWrong]

  You can read this headline, and get scared:
Ontario experiencing spike in new COVID-19 ICU admissions not seen since June, data shows

Read the subtitle, and continue on to the first seven paragraphs. Sounds very worrying!
Scroll past the video that is not directly related to the story, on to the next paragraph.

Quote

The latest available one-day tally for Ontario intensive care units (ICUs) showed eight new patients across the province by end-of-day Wednesday. That's a high Ontario's hospitals haven't hit since June 4, though it's still below the mostly double-digit daily ICU admissions during the first wave of cases from the end of March to early May.

 

====

 

[Argus]

The real question is why does Canada have about 2.5 hospital beds per hundred thousand people when Australia has 3.84, France has 6, Germany has 8, and South Korea and Japan have 12-13. And of these, only Germany spends more than we do on health care. In fact, we spend almost exactly the same per person as Australia. France spends about a hundred bucks a year less.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Argus

[oops]

The lack of hospital beds is a problem. The problem was made worse when at a time when there is a long waiting list for life saving procedures, the government shut down many of the available beds, and people were afraid to come to hospitals at all. People needing treatments for cancer and heart disease, the real killers couldn't get them. This  certainly resulted in unnecessary deaths, and there will be more if they are shut down again. 

[OftenWrong]

On 10/13/2020 at 2:30 PM, oops said:

The lack of hospital beds is a problem. The problem was made worse when at a time when there is a long waiting list for life saving procedures, the government shut down many of the available beds, and people were afraid to come to hospitals at all. People needing treatments for cancer and heart disease, the real killers couldn't get them. This  certainly resulted in unnecessary deaths, and there will be more if they are shut down again. 

Yes indeed, although some folks couldn't believe that when I told them, cancer and heart patients not being seen for the planning stages of their treatment. For a while, only those who were already actively being treated were allowed to continue. All diagnostic procedures were halted. No medical imaging.

Report out today that the province must address the surgery backlog. This article shows just how serious it is-

Quote

The Ford government recently announced a plan to address Ontario’s massive surgery backlog, the largest in Canada.

Estimates place the backlog, which is partly due to COVID’s impact on hospital capacity, at more than 148,000 procedures. And despite the term “elective surgery,” this backlog is composed of medically-necessary procedures from cancer surgeries to cataract removals.

Massive surgery backlog latest symptom of Ontario's health-care problem

Another bit in the article, for Argus:

Quote

the province’s Financial Accountability Office found that the average occupancy rate for beds in Ontario hospitals in 2018-19 was 96% (the highest when compared to 28 Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries including Canada, which was third highest ), with 28 hospitals operating above 100%.

Our hospitals have essentially been operating at 100% capacity, no overhead. In fact no available capacity for a large-scale emergency.

And then along came Mary...

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by OftenWrong
because new software is truly for pussy-wimps

[OftenWrong]

Ontario is shuttin 'er down, shut 'er down. So says the mighty Premier. Mr. Ford would like Ontarians who are now laid off and putting their lives on hold again for at least another month, to know how much he feels for them.

Easy enough for you to say, Doug. Your empathy means little. No more gym for people to use, no more restaurant workers to be employed. Their lives are shuttered, while you people carry out some kinda weird social experiment.

I am not alone in this opinion...

Quote

Ford has all but admitted that he’s passed the buck and has opted not to lead anymore, repeatedly saying he will do what he is advised to do by the select doctors and public health officials who are offering him the sort of pro-lockdown advice that more and more expert voices, including those at the WHO, are now urging us to rethink.

FUREY: Fact-free Ford strikes again
(Toronto Sun)

Emphasis is mine.

Edited October 16, 2020 by OftenWrong

[Cannucklehead]

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/mobile/ford-forced-to-give-up-part-of-salary-after-failing-to-deliver-2020-budget-on-time-1.5151548

 

Well its a start....

[Shady]

On 10/19/2020 at 10:54 PM, Cannucklehead said:

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/mobile/ford-forced-to-give-up-part-of-salary-after-failing-to-deliver-2020-budget-on-time-1.5151548

 

Well its a start....

What's a start?

[Boges]

I think it's sad that it's people who are most financially affected by this pandemic, who are also the same people who are the most likely to get this disease. 

If you don't have a car to get to your service job, you take a crowded bus.

You don't have a house, so you're in hallways an elevators every day. OR multi-family dwellings. 

And those are the places where the virus is ballooning. 1,000+ cases yesterday. The same places are still leading the cases. But you have Conservatives demanding that they continue to work, so they can fuel the economy. But they don't have sick days, they're forced to stay home if they show any symptoms. So if they do, they'll hide them. 

It's really a sad state of affairs. 

[OftenWrong]

On 10/26/2020 at 8:35 AM, Boges said:

I think it's sad that it's people who are most financially affected by this pandemic, who are also the same people who are the most likely to get this disease.

It is sad, yes, but let's not forget that more than 99 percent of them will recover within a few days. Also that most of them will recover without any medical intervention. It's called the human immune system.

What is sad though, actually sad, is that serious illness and death is occurring in the same demographic as before, yet we in Ontario did little up to now in any progressive way to protect said vulnerable demographic.
 

In other news, there is now evidence the virus is proportional to the number of shit-hole old age homes in a province.

Edited October 27, 2020 by OftenWrong

[Boges]

56 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

It is sad, yes, but let's not forget that more than 99 percent of them will recover within a few days. Also that most of them will recover without any medical intervention. It's called the human immune system.

What is sad though, actually sad, is that serious illness and death is occurring in the same demographic as before, yet we in Ontario did little up to now in any progressive way to protect said vulnerable demographic.

In other news, there is now evidence the virus is proportional to the number of shit-hole old age homes in a province.

The same lower income people also are more likely to have poor outcomes because of diet and a variety of health issues. 

[OftenWrong]

41 minutes ago, Boges said:

The same lower income people also are more likely to have poor outcomes because of diet and a variety of health issues. 

That may be true, but you haven't provided any cites for that, Mr. cite-asker guy.

There's no point attempting to hide the fact the main problem is in the old-age homes again, and among sick and elderly in general. Want to make the number of deaths go away, or way down? Focus efforts and cash there. Go on, save em.

 

[Boges]

1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

That may be true, but you haven't provided any cites for that, Mr. cite-asker guy.

There's no point attempting to hide the fact the main problem is in the old-age homes again, and among sick and elderly in general. Want to make the number of deaths go away, or way down? Focus efforts and cash there. Go on, save em.

Well numbers on who exactly are getting sick aren't easily available. 

But we know where they're getting sick, and that's overwhelmingly in Urban areas. 

Deaths are only a part of the factors with COVID-19. There's a term called "Long Hauler" being ascribed to COVID-19 survivors. People who didn't die but suffer from the effects well after testing negative. 

https://www.healthing.ca/diseases-and-conditions/coronavirus/covid-19-long-haulers

[OftenWrong]

9 hours ago, Boges said:

Well numbers on who exactly are getting sick aren't easily available. 

Exactly! Now, ain't that a coinky-dink..  

Quote

But we know where they're getting sick, and that's overwhelmingly in Urban areas.

No kidding. They won't tell people the problem of modern building HVAC systems, that were designed to be energy-efficient. These are potential virus super-spreaders. Maybe you people need to all wear the N95 even while inside your homes. That would in fact be helpful, but it is a wise thing to do?

Germany mandates the required use of masks outdoors now. The Health Police are out in force in the streets. Children, too.

Some African nations, you better wear it, otherwise you'll get arrested.

Coming soon to a province near you!

Quote

Deaths are only a part of the factors with COVID-19. There's a term called "Long Hauler" being ascribed to COVID-19 survivors. People who didn't die but suffer from the effects well after testing negative.

Published Oct 21 no less. That's vettable science.

[Cannucklehead]

https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data

 

The numbers show a much higher case count for people in their 20's for Ontario.  Not sure about the rest of the world.  

[OftenWrong]

Just got the news, 75 long-term care homes in Ontario currently have COVID outbreaks. It's where all the deaths are happening again, the same as in the spring. QUebec is even worse, also the same as in the spring.

Rather than solve the problem, the government of Ontario has ordered the closure of gyms and restaurants. Business owners, who worked hard to comply with all safety codes are demanding an explanation. Anyone have an explanation for this? Doug?

[OftenWrong]

Substantiating the info-

CTV News

 

[Boges]

5 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Substantiating the info-

CTV News

 

What other contagious diseases have a 3-6% chance of killing someone in their 60's? 

That's why I take this seriously. Lots of people in their 60's are in the workforce and my parents are in their 60's. And to tell them to stay home so I can hit the bar is ridiculous. 

[Shady]

24 minutes ago, Boges said:

What other contagious diseases have a 3-6% chance of killing someone in their 60's? 

That's why I take this seriously. Lots of people in their 60's are in the workforce and my parents are in their 60's. And to tell them to stay home so I can hit the bar is ridiculous. 

None, including covid has a 3 to 6 percent change of killing someone in their 60s.  Especially now.  You’re just making shit up again, as usual.

[Shady]

What does you hitting the bar have to do with them going to work?  Your stupidity knows no bounds.  People shouldn’t have to close their businesses for your parents to feel safe.  Your parents should practice personal responsibility and the covid guidelines.  It’s selfish to ask other people to destroy their livelihoods.  Unless your patents want to start paying other people’s rent, mortgages, etc, they need to shut the hell up.  Why should they get to go to work but other people can’t?  

[Boges]

17 minutes ago, Shady said:

None, including covid has a 3 to 6 percent change of killing someone in their 60s.  Especially now.  You’re just making shit up again, as usual.

I'm reading the chart. 3-6% of Ontario deaths are people in their 60's. 

[Boges]

14 minutes ago, Shady said:

What does you hitting the bar have to do with them going to work?  Your stupidity knows no bounds.  People shouldn’t have to close their businesses for your parents to feel safe.  Your parents should practice personal responsibility and the covid guidelines.  It’s selfish to ask other people to destroy their livelihoods.  Unless your patents want to start paying other people’s rent, mortgages, etc, they need to shut the hell up.  Why should they get to go to work but other people can’t?  

Wahhhhhhh!!!!!! More ad hominem attacks from someone who's unable to debate. 

Places are closing because number keep going up because young people don't want to practice personal responsibility and physical distance properly.

So places where people congregate in large groups need to be limited. 

Sure people in the Hospitality industry are suffering. It's sad, but don't pretend their livelihood would automatically return to normal because they can open. A lot of people shouldn't be going to places like that anyway, especially if it's with groups outside of their social bubbles. 

People who choose to say "if I get sick I won't die" are the ones being selfish. 

We're all living in situation where I have to stay home even if I have a cold because you can't prove it's COVID-19 without a test, because even if it's low symptom COVID-19, it can be transmitted to people it may kill.