What to do about China

[Argus]

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Edited December 29, 2020 by Argus

[Nefarious Banana]

38 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

 

33 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Well, we both know that Canada can never go it alone.   That's why America's choices matter so much to you, and always will.  

What to do about China ?    Hope that America does something about China, because Canada is too weak to do anything.   

Follow your own advice....

New thread . . . . 'What to do about Canada'

Many Canadians have a self-righteous attitude towards Americans. MG's post is the blueprint for that attitude.

Canadian motto: "Aah . . . oh oh, Mmmm maybe not, you can't do that, that'll never work, not right now . . . maybe tomorrow.

American motto:  "Just watch me" . . . . . 

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

Uh, I said China had a bizarre sense of victimhood (hello Donald Trump). And twenty five pages later you're still here desperately angry because I attacked your god?

 

No, I am not angry...I am amused and entertained.   Donald Trump has been so impactful that you reference him often in all kinds of topics.   Even before Trump, American things course through many of your posts....why ?

Is America your god....your only salvation (e.g. China) ?

 

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

New thread . . . . 'What to do about Canada'

 

Very insightful...this is really the issue here...not China.

As long as the paralysis continues, China will treat Canada like a Mexican piñata.

 

[Argus]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Very insightful...this is really the issue here...not China.

As long as the paralysis continues, China will treat Canada like a Mexican piñata.

 

Shouldn't you also be worrying over how China treats American like its bitch?

[Argus]

To demonstrate to its citizens that they have no right to ever mention the reality of diseases which are breaking out in their cities, the Chinese communist party sentenced a young woman to four years in prison today for reporting on the covid diseases in Wuhan with reports which often went against the lies the Communist Party had approved for dissemination.

This is likely because China expects to have more such outbreaks and does not want the world knowing about it until it's too late to do anything about it.

A Chinese court handed a four-year jail term on Monday to a citizen-journalist who reported from the central city of Wuhan at the peak of last year's coronavirus outbreak, on grounds of "picking quarrels and provoking trouble," her lawyer said.

Zhang Zhan, 37, the first such person known to have been tried, was among a handful of people whose firsthand accounts from crowded hospitals and empty streets painted a more dire picture of the pandemic epicentre than the official narrative.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/china-zhang-zhan-wuhan-virus-jail-1.5855759

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

Shouldn't you also be worrying over how China treats American like its bitch?

 

No....China and America need each other....it's a superpower kinda game that Canada cannot play.

Being America's and China's "bitch" at the same time is more problematic.

Apple (AAPL) alone has annual China market sales revenue of $50 billion....USD...not CAD.

[Argus]

14 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

No....China and America need each other....it's a superpower kinda game that Canada cannot play.

Being America's and China's "bitch" at the same time is more problematic.

Apple (AAPL) alone has annual China market sales revenue of $50 billion....USD...not CAD.

And how much, if any of that makes it back to the US?

[bush_cheney2004]

33 minutes ago, Argus said:

And how much, if any of that makes it back to the US?

 

A lot more than from Apple sales in Canada.     Basic math....

Edited December 29, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[Moonlight Graham]

7 hours ago, Nefarious Banana said:

 

New thread . . . . 'What to do about Canada'

Many Canadians have a self-righteous attitude towards Americans. MG's post is the blueprint for that attitude.

Canadian motto: "Aah . . . oh oh, Mmmm maybe not, you can't do that, that'll never work, not right now . . . maybe tomorrow.

American motto:  "Just watch me" . . . . . 

I have no ill will towards Americans.  But when one of them picks a fight I'll finish it.  All in good fun.

I'd much rather team up with Americans and Europeans and the other Commonwealth countries and together shove a large bottle up the CCP's bum-bum.  Nothing like a good rectal bleeding for the reds!

[Moonlight Graham]

7 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

No....China and America need each other....it's a superpower kinda game that Canada cannot play.

Being America's and China's "bitch" at the same time is more problematic.

Apple (AAPL) alone has annual China market sales revenue of $50 billion....USD...not CAD.

Once China establishes its domestic market of 1.4 billion consumers and has stolen all of America's IP they will throw Wall Street to the curb...or buy it, one of those.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55454146

[bush_cheney2004]

6 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Once China establishes its domestic market of 1.4 billion consumers and has stolen all of America's IP they will throw Wall Street to the curb...or buy it, one of those.

 

Is that what Canada feels like today ?   

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Once China establishes its domestic market of 1.4 billion consumers and has stolen all of America's IP they will throw Wall Street to the curb...or buy it, one of those.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55454146

That's not how this works.  Without markets, we're not going to be interested in engaging with them.

[OftenWrong]

On 12/23/2020 at 9:40 AM, Michael Hardner said:

I'm not left and

And yet clearly,,, Dionysian

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

And yet clearly,,, Dionysian

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dionysian

Orgiastic ? ?

 

[PIK]

Now I don't know if I had said this already or said by someone else, but what I would do? I would make a private call to the Chinese president or the lady jailed in her mansions father. And I would say politely, you have 10 days to get them back here or the lady goes to a regular prison and put into general population.

[Michael Hardner]

38 minutes ago, PIK said:

Now I don't know if I had said this already or said by someone else, but what I would do?  

The "what would I do ?" fantasy you are pitching here has an inherent framework of your power being beyond anything that anyone in Canada has.  So, even if you "were" Trudeau you couldn't get a judge to just do your bidding.

What I don't understand is why don't you give yourself more power ?  Why not "If it were me, I would make China float their currency, and stop subsidizing industry" or even "I would force all countries to submit to binding WTA jurisdiction with an independent council of economic elders to establish global trade and monetary policy"...

You could give yourself as much power as you like in the "if it were me" world.
 

[Shady]

It doesn’t help that the mainstream media actively propagate Chinese propaganda.

 

 

[Shady]

 

 

[Moonlight Graham]

On 12/23/2020 at 9:40 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Emotive wails, without any reason... not a way to set policy.

What does emotion have anything to do with how we should deal with China?  It's realpolitik and nothing more.  China is doing what is best for China and Canada should respond by doing what is best for Canada.  China is Machiavellian to the core.

We've tried to cooperate with China in good faith for the last 40 years, and China has proven time and again that they have no interest in that.  They've consistently shown that if we give them an inch they'll take it, without remorse.  The logical thing to do is to not give them an inch.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Moonlight Graham

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1. What does emotion have anything to do with how we should deal with China?  It's realpolitik and nothing more.  China is doing what is best for China and Canada should respond by doing what is best for Canada.  China is Machiavellian to the core.

2. We've tried to cooperate with China in good faith for the last 40 years, and China has proven time and again that they have no interest in that.  They've consistently shown that if we give them an inch they'll take it, without remorse.  The logical thing to do is to not give them an inch.

1. I agree, except that I don't think that we have been trying to help them.  We have been trying to act in our own self interest also.

2. Well, like you said we should act in our self-interest.

[OftenWrong]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I agree, except that I don't think that we have been trying to help them.  We have been trying to act in our own self interest also.

2. Well, like you said we should act in our self-interest.

Quite sure I could find many links where western politicians expressed their belief, hollow though it may have been, that making booming trade business with China will "encourage" them to rise to our lofty and moral civilized plane. Didn't happen.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Like many other major global problems, dealing with the CCP will involve both mitigation and adaptation. We can do very little to change Xi and the gang on our own so our only hope is to work with our allies and trading partners to push back on aggressive Chinese government behaviour at home and abroad. If trade is going to be threatened every time some individual voices an opinion the boys in Beijing don’t like, then we are probably going to have to cut back on trade.

I didn’t agree with arresting Meng and persisting with extradition, especially after Trump made clear she was just a bargaining chip. Her alleged offences involve business in a third country rather than the crimes of Huawei purely in the US, an undesirable extra-territorial habit the Yanks have gotten into, but we’re stuck now and should just get it done ASAP. In the current environment, any Canadian in China is a potential hostage and travel to that country should at least be discouraged.

Modern China is like the early US; any nation near it is under threat. Hong Kong is doomed and I wouldn’t hold out much hope for Taiwan either, a precious prize in the race for semiconductor supremacy and a rebuke to the communist system. South Korea and Japan are uncomfortably close too and may be pulled into a Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere under new management. Unlike the Soviets, the Chinese have vast amounts of money and technological expertise with which to lure countries, or often just greedy and gullible leaders, into their orbit through debt diplomacy. In every foreign relationship we have, the Chinese element must be considered from now on. This applies many times more with the Americans. Examples include Russia and Iran. Neither wants to become a Chinese satellite, as recent unease within the Iranian leadership itself on the proposed new China deal illustrates, so the US posture should always factor that in. If US sanctions push Iran too far, it will have to take even more Chinese money until it can’t pay it back and is in a Tony Soprano situation. Then only one more country, Turkey, would be needed to build roads and railways through client states from China all the way to Europe.

Unless it collapses under the force of its own contradictions or there is a catastrophic war, China will probably dominate the world. We can only do our best to help change its political culture, and protect our own in the meantime, so that our way of life can continue. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by SpankyMcFarland

[Army Guy]

On 1/2/2021 at 8:08 AM, Michael Hardner said:

1. I agree, except that I don't think that we have been trying to help them.  We have been trying to act in our own self interest also.

2. Well, like you said we should act in our self-interest.

We may not be actively helping them directly , but we are not trying to stop them either,

As far as Chinese investment in Canadian resources, industry, infra structure projects, with a lot of investments traced back to the CCP, we also are not doing much to stop or decrease CCP influence over Chinese Canadians, or their industrial/ military spies. Nor have we done anything about finding other sources for our exports so we are not so dependent on Chinese trade. nor have we decided to start a new trade relation with other countries such as India, Vietnam, or most Asian countries that have cheaper labor, and could have the same infra structure for the same investment western countries have poured into China.

What we need is a leader that can lead the nation into a new direction, as this past governments  is like a merry go round that gives the same results regardless how many times we spin the wheel. 

[cannuck]

On 1/4/2021 at 1:07 PM, SpankyMcFarland said:

Unless it collapses under the force of its own contradictions or there is a catastrophic war, China will probably dominate the world. We can only do our best to help change its political culture, and protect our own in the meantime, so that our way of life can continue. 

Thing is, our way of life has already changed dramatically.   China has emptied much of the meager value added from our economy.  Take the automobile industry:  Canada was a big player in feeding the US car manufacturing industry, but China has gutted that role almost completely.  It's gone, and not likely ever going to come back.   Take WallyWorld as another:  probably a hundred thousand small businesses in manufacturing and distribution of consumer goods are gone - thanks to their success in killing both across North America by shifting their supply chain from US to China.   There are lot of other examples, but these are two of the biggies.  

We have had governments of both partisan persuations, and NEITHER have shown any balls or brains (Canadian, eh?) in standing up to this onslaught.

Edited January 6, 2021 by cannuck