Another Mass Shooting

[dre]

That you can't comprehend his mindset doesn't mean that he was unstable or insane or not in control of his actions. He seems to have been very methodical in planning and carrying out this act. I see no reason to think that what he did was anything other than a deliberate and conscious choice. It's not a choice that you or I would make, but neither of us believes that an Eternal Reward is waiting in heaven for those who smite down sinners.

-k

You don't have to have a break with reality or lose control to be mentally unstable. Violent outbursts, or fits or rage, qualify. Getting pissed off and beating your wife is definitely a sign of mental instability... as is laughing maniacally while you gun down dozens innocent people.

Its true though that religion in general conditions people to hate women and fags. Its also true that some religions have toned down their women and fag hating while Islam has not.

Its still a little bit overly simplistic and easy to just blame religion though. After all theirs hundreds of millions of woman and fag hating male Muslim's that don't shoot up gay bars. So if religion DOES create a predisposition to this kind of behavior it doesn't seem to be very strong.

To me a better explanation is just that most humans are pieces of crap, that are prone to disliking other identifiable groups... Women, gays, blacks, jews, asiatics, christians, atheists, indians, etc etc etc.

Edited June 15, 2016 by dre

[?Impact]

Yes they are 2 conflicting organizations that fight each other but what do they have in common, well the hate for the west, America, Israel, all other forms of religion, the LGBT community, they also share the same religion ISlam... in fact the list of common threads here is actually very large....

Yes, the common factor is hate. That is root of all these acts. Hate for religion, hate for something different, hate for the west, hate for different lifestyles, but most of all hate for ones lot in life.

[Army Guy]

Army Guy, you're gonna get this thread locked again.

DoP already didn't listen but I notice they removed his posts.

Please read Kimmy's post, this is not a thread about Islam.

I was not aware, we could not talk about one of the leading causes or motivations for this attack....

[Guest]

Army Guy, you're gonna get this thread locked again.

DoP already didn't listen but I notice they removed his posts.

Please read Kimmy's post, this is not a thread about Islam.

I wondered what happened to those. I think discussing the shooter's motive is fair game, even within the confines of a mod approved thread.

It would be impossible to do any justice to a discussion of this man and his acts without mentioning his religion.

[GostHacked]

Lets start connecting the dots shall we , Omar was a devout Muslim, he attended the mosque regularly....he has also been questioned by the FBI on 2 separate occasions, has ties with a convicted Orlando Iman known for his blatant extremism and connecting Home grown terrorist with KNOWN terrorist groups abroad....allowing them to get training or indoctrination when needed.....Omar has had 2 trips to Saudi Arabia , with Saudi officials only noting one official trip,his passport was only stamped once....where did he go, nobody knows...FBI is following up.

The intelligence services in the USA seem to treat Saudis different from all other arabs/muslims.

Now the other question I raise is why this Imam is not under some investigation.

[GostHacked]

I was not aware, we could not talk about one of the leading causes or motivations for this attack....

Even if this guy claims he did it in the name of ISIS, chances are he really has nothing to do with ISIS. ISIS did not sanction it or even plan it.

The motivations now look like he was a confused gay Muslim.

[BC_chick]

I was not aware, we could not talk about one of the leading causes or motivations for this attack....

I think the point was to stop this thread from dwindling to a debate about Islam, but I agree 100%, it's kind of difficult here where the topic could delve into whether Islam made him do it or if crazy made him do it.

Personally, I don't agree with the mods on this but I just wanted to let you know since you weren't around yesterday.

[?Impact]

One interesting development is what did his employer (G4S security) know and when. One of their former employees (Daniel Gilroy) has been having many media interviews saying he had run-ins with the murderer* when he worked there and brought them to the attention of the company but they failed to act. Gilroy is claiming he quit because of the murderer.

*Note, I try to not use the name of the murderer as I have no interest in contributing to his infamy. He is just a no-name scum bug.

[cybercoma]

Mass shooters have no ideological motive.

Tell that to the women of École Polytechnique in Montréal. Mass murderers frequently have motives ideological or otherwise. Edited June 15, 2016 by cybercoma

[marcus]

Kimmy, you continuously make the big mistake of lumping 1.6 billion people together. I'm not sure why you don't realize that this is the wrong way to think.

I encourage you to watch this video on British Muslims:

[cybercoma]

So in your opinion, then, 600 million Muslims are not "peaceful"?

[Guest]

Kimmy, you continuously make the big mistake of lumping 1.6 billion people together. I'm not sure why you don't realize that this is the wrong way to think.

It's weird how often that statement is made on here. No-one actually does do that. Why do you (and others) feel it necessary to keep repeating that?

Is it because you refuse to accept the barbaric behaviour of many Muslims, and seek to deflect attention from such to assuage your own uneasiness?

[Guest]

See what happens when you're not really exact about these things?

[?Impact]

The problem with using a term like radical Islam is that what you really mean is radical but 30% of the population hears only Islam. Lets deal with the radicals.

b.t.w. The Sydney Post just published a detailed article on the scum bag murderer.

[Guest]

It's weird how often that statement is made on here. No-one actually does do that. Why do you (and others) feel it necessary to keep repeating that?

Is it because you refuse to accept the barbaric behaviour of many Muslims, and seek to deflect attention from such to assuage your own uneasiness?

There are multiple posters who do mean all Muslims and advocate for the walls and no immigration strategy. There are also those that excuse Christian theocrat actions or downplay right wing extremism because Islam. The hypocrisy is maddening.

On lefty sites I spend most of my time arguing, like Masjid Nawaz, that Islam does play a role and that's it's our duty and the duty of the Muslim community to condemn Islamists and Jihadists.

Which is the equivalent of Repubs condemning gay discrimination laws or Libs calling out our government for not killing the Con arms deal with Saudi Arabia via export permits.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

There are multiple posters who do mean all Muslims and advocate for the walls and no immigration strategy. There are also those that excuse Christian theocrat actions or downplay right wing extremism because Islam. The hypocrisy is maddening.

On lefty sites I spend most of my time arguing, like Masjid Nawaz, that Islam does play a role and that's it's our duty and the duty of the Muslim community to condemn Islamists and Jihadists.

Which is the equivalent of Repubs condemning gay discrimination laws or Libs calling out our government for not killing the Con arms deal with Saudi Arabia via export permits.

I've only ever known one. MrCanada was one of his appellations, but he had others. He was banned whenever he showed up, if I remember correctly. There are certainly those who argue a different point than me,while being in the same general direction, and some that I don't agree with, but I do not know of one who says all 1.6 billion Muslims are the same.

The thing about Islam (Muslims) is that it has the capacity to be much worse than we are used to and to many it's hard to give voice to the disgust they might feel, about the stoning of women, killing of homosexuals or hacking of bloggers, for instance, for crimes that would not be crimes in our society, without being afraid of giving the impression of prejudice. It's not prejudice.

[Guest]

The thing about Islam (Muslims) is that it has the capacity to be much worse than we are used to and to many it's hard to give voice to the disgust they might feel, about the stoning of women, killing of homosexuals or hacking of bloggers, for instance, for crimes that would not be crimes in our society, without being afraid of giving the impression of prejudice. It's not prejudice.

You haven't heard current members praising the Trump notion of banning Muslim immigration? Really? You can't get more open about it than say Argus.

It's not prejudice to say that the typical human rights abuses in Muslim majority countries are worse than in some other cultures. However, it still doesn't excuse Christian theocratical (not sure if that's a word) actions either. It is hard to ignore the "religion of peace" or "my religion is better than their religion" taunts from Christian apologists. Hypocrisy is annoying and on this board I often find myself reminding people that they live in glass houses.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Guest

[Argus]

You haven't heard current members praising the Trump notion of banning Muslim immigration? Really? You can't get more open about it than say Argus.

I've been calling for either a ban or a very careful screening of Muslim applicants for many years based on logic and common sense.

That doesn't mean I think all Muslims are violent, or all Muslims are going to cause social problems. It does mean I think there is a dark, violent, homophobic, and misogynistic vein of fanaticism and intolerance running down the middle of the Muslim world, and that the more Muslims you bring into the country, the more we'll have to deal with that vein here at home.

However, it still doesn't excuse Christian theocratical (not sure if that's a word) actions either. It is hard to ignore the "religion of peace" or "my religion is better than their religion" taunts from Christian apologists. Hypocrisy is annoying and on this board I often find myself reminding people that they live in glass houses.

Western Christianity is massively less violent and less intolerant than Middle East Islam, so while it has its screwballs, they're a far smaller minority than in the Muslim world.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Argus

[Moonlight Graham]

Even if this guy claims he did it in the name of ISIS, chances are he really has nothing to do with ISIS. ISIS did not sanction it or even plan it.

The motivations now look like he was a confused gay Muslim.

...who murders infidels via inspiration by ISIS and other groups?

[Moonlight Graham]

The answer is pretty obvious if you ask me. He wasn't a terrorist. He may have sympathized with ISIL, but had no ties. This was a psychopath with access to extremely deadly means. He's a mass murderer like all the others, not a terrorist. People want an explanation for senseless violence when sometimes there isn't one. It makes people feel better when they can point a finger and blame someone who is different from them. This stops them from having to face the harsh reality that these mass murders happen all too frequently in America by a variety of men from different backgrounds but almost always born and raised in Anerica.

That's ridiculous. The gunman reportedly called 911 and pledged allegiance to ISIS during the attack. That seems like terrorism to me. Yes there's some other reasons/motivations at play, so it's a bit more complex than usual, but it looks like terrorism.

[Moonlight Graham]

One of the problems with local North American Muslims becoming converts of a more radical and hateful (and violent) Islam is that so many of the clerics here are fire-eaters who come from overseas. I've never actually seen any Canadian born clerics speaking in any capacity. I suppose there are a few, but only a few. Instead we get people like this guy. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/aly-hindy-salaheddin-islamic-centre And this guy..

Bear in mind this guy has had many respected positions in Canada. http://en.cijnews.com/?p=18748

So why aren't people like this deported?

I saw this article/video too, about a Canadian Imam speaking in Australia about Canada. This is madness: http://en.cijnews.com/?p=39979

“So he said: what is the position of Islam on homosexuality? They ask me. So newspaper, right? So I said: put my name in the paper. The position is death. And we cannot change Islam."

I won't say all Muslims believe this kind of thing, because it's not true, but what do we do in cases like this? Muslims who believe and preach these things? Can it not influence something like which occurred in Orlando?

Edited June 15, 2016 by Moonlight Graham

[Bryan]

Amazing that the authorities have the power to add guys like Mateen to a no fly list, but cannot prevent him from legally buying guns.

At least one person is examining the logistics of doing something about that:

I will be meeting with the NRA, who has endorsed me, about not allowing people on the terrorist watch list, or the no fly list, to buy guns.

https://www.facebook.com/DonaldTrump/?fref=nf

[WestCoastRunner]

That's ridiculous. The gunman reportedly called 911 and pledged allegiance to ISIS during the attack. That seems like terrorism to me. Yes there's some other reasons/motivations at play, so it's a bit more complex than usual, but it looks like terrorism.

It is indeed complex. Barbara Starr interviewed one of the most senior and experienced counter terrorism officials in the MIddle East recently who said that the West is failing to fully understand the impact of ISIS.

Here are other quotes from Barbara's post:

"It's not an army, it's not about religion, it's not even a movement," he said. "It's a label. Every mad and upset young man can just now say they are part of ISIS."

"There's not a single motivation. There are multiple motivations, and we should stop thinking there will be a light bulb -- it's ISIS, it's radicalization, it's homophobia. It may be that he is gay, it's mental illness, it's all of the above," said Juliette Kayyem, former U.S. assistant secretary for Homeland Security and a CNN contributor.

The counterterrorism official I spoke with days ago had a point well worth considering in the wake of Orlando: He spoke about the dangers of those who are just plain mad at the world and looking for a cause to justify their killing.

Al Qaeda under Osama bin Laden, and even today, is always looking for next big score. ISIS is not. If it can kill civilians from Paris to Brussels to San Bernardino to Orlando by just being a label that criminals can attach themselves to, they have achieved a goal that maybe even their leader, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, had never envisioned: The creation of a terror group that defies conventional counter attack.

[Guest]

At least one person is examining the logistics of doing something about that:

Clinton wants even more stringent and sensible gun control.

[eyeball]

I saw this article/video too, about a Canadian Imam speaking in Australia about Canada. This is madness: http://en.cijnews.com/?p=39979

“So he said: what is the position of Islam on homosexuality? They ask me. So newspaper, right? So I said: put my name in the paper. The position is death. And we cannot change Islam."

I won't say all Muslims believe this kind of thing, because it's not true, but what do we do in cases like this? Muslims who believe and preach these things? Can it not influence something like which occurred in Orlando?

Perhaps we should charge them with hate speech.

We can do that in Canada.