Guest Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) Well, Bush called the war in the middle east a holy war. It's all in what you choose to define as being "because of religion" or not. Any time a Muslim kills someone, somebody is going to say it's because of his religion. Anders Breivik murders someone and we don't say it's because of his religion, yet ideology is ideology. Middle Eastern radicals are not murdering because of religion. They're murdering because of political ideologies and using religion as a recruitment and retention tool. The facts, again, that are being ignored is that there are many Muslims being butchered by these terrorists and there are many Muslims both allies and in the US military fighting against the terrorists and radicals. It's blunt, unsophisticated thinking that chalks it up to religion and insults the families of the dead who observe that religion and it insults those who observe that religion and are fighting against these animals. It's not being ignored that the first and most common victims of Muslim violence are other Muslims. I think it is well known. It's also acknowledged that there are Muslims all over the world who decry violence in their name and actively work against it. Very brave people, That they need to be brave is the problem though. A dissenting voice in a Muslim community is in very real danger. Not so in any other religious community. Certainly not to the same level, anyway. Middle Eastern radicals would not need to kill homosexuals and subjugate women if their goals were purely political. They would not need to destroy idols. They would not need to kill people just because they are the wrong Muslims. But even allowing that the ISIS leadership has solely political goals, a view I do not share, at what level of their infrastructure does religion become the driving force? Are the AK47 waving drones driven by politics or religion? Edited June 16, 2016 by bcsapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Sure, but their religion has a big part to play in that. The WBC aren't homophobes just because they find it icky. I got news for you: Finding gays "icky" is being homophobic. When there are dozens of legislations put forward by the religious right against gays, that's homophobic. The Religious Right’s hostility toward LGBT Americans is well known. For years, fundamentalist religious-political organizations have spewed hateful venom toward LGBT people and used the proceeds of their multi-million-dollar operations to try to gain “dominion” over the government. The rhetoric from people like TV preacher and Christian Coalition founder Pat Robertson and Lou Sheldon of the Traditional Values Coalition can be reprehensible. Robertson once asserted that being gay is “a sickness, and it needs to be treated” and has even said, “Many of those people involved with Adolf Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals. The two things seem to go together.” It's interesting that you're so quick to give excuses for the homophobia in the Christian right. And speaking of a community when referring to a Mosque is not beyond the pale. The Mosque is the focal point of the community. Same with a Church or a Temple. The Westboro Baptist Church spoke against many things, including LGBT. Do they represent all Christians or all people in their community? There are many types of mosques. There are many types of Muslims. It's simply a superficial and a lazy way of thinking to say they represent every Muslim anywhere, including those in that community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 I can see part of the problem with people ONLY wanting to discuss the problems with Islam instead of treating this as simply another mass murder by a nutjob who was influence by other idiots. Idiots influencing idiots. The failure of the FBI to stop this should be a question from those who want to simply bash Islam. The rhetoric by some is simply inflammatory trolling, nothing more. You mean idiots influence other idiots using Islam as their main means of influence..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 You mean idiots influence other idiots using Islam as their main means of influence..... Not just Islam, religion in general. It's always been used as a tool to influence idiots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 It's interesting that you're so quick to give excuses for the homophobia in the Christian right. As an atheist with gay family members I can't let that go unchallenged. Please expand on your reasoning here so I can defend myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 The Westboro Baptist Church spoke against many things, including LGBT. Do they represent all Christians or all people in their community? There are many types of mosques. There are many types of Muslims. It's simply a superficial and a lazy way of thinking to say they represent every Muslim anywhere, including those in that community. I said it was not beyond the pale. It wasn't. You said it meant all 1.6 billion Muslims. That was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 As an atheist with gay family members I can't let that go unchallenged. Please expand on your reasoning here so I can defend myself. I responded to this: The WBC aren't homophobes just because they find it icky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) I responded to this: The WBC aren't homophobes just because they find it icky Right. They are homophobes because their religion tells them to be. The sentence you quote was following this one: Sure, but their religion has a big part to play in that. Edited June 16, 2016 by bcsapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 perfect! Not that there was any doubt, this clearly frames you... and your agenda: CAIR Pulls 'Don't Talk To FBI' Poster . Sure it was pulled. It also exists. Plus...there is stuff like this...must be liars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Also, for those of you who keep trotting out The Donald's ridiculous talking point that Muslims don't report suspected terrorists, you're wrong.http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-cooperation-idUSKCN0Z213U FBI director James Comey said, "[Muslims] do not want people committing violence, either in their community or in the name of their faith, and so some of our most productive relationships are with people who see things and tell us things who happen to be Muslim." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Also, for those of you who keep trotting out The Donald's ridiculous talking point that Muslims don't report suspected terrorists, you're wrong. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-cooperation-idUSKCN0Z213U Is Mr Comey a follower of Islam? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Is Mr Comey a follower of Islam? Woot another strawman argument, you are on a roll here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Sure it was pulled. It also exists. Plus...there is stuff like this...must be liars. no worries - I'm more than willing to showcase your blatant purposeful attempts to deceive while plying your agenda. Seeing your link is from breitbart... I'll pass - I already took a shower earlier this morning! . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Every religion says you should be a homophobe. That doesn't explain your comment accusing me of giving excuses for the homophobia in the Christian right. Did you misunderstand my words? Do you still think I excuse homophobia selectively? It's a major accusation. I need to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 no worries - I'm more than willing to showcase your blatant purposeful attempts to deceive while plying your agenda. Seeing your link is from breitbart... I'll pass - I already took a shower earlier this morning! . Correct me if I'm wrong...but didn't the FBI 'scrub' all mention of 'radical Islam' etc from their guide manuals at the behest of Muslim groups like CAIR? 2009...Obama decree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 The FBI also removed this person from a watchlist after two investigations. The question is how bad did the FBI fail here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 ...and isn't Mrs Clinton's aide-de-camp, Huma Abedin, the one with the mother who is a high ranking CAIR member? The founder of the Muslim Sisterhood? Nahhhh...Dog must be lying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 The FBI also removed this person from a watchlist after two investigations. The question is how bad did the FBI fail here? Not allowed to profile Muslims for being Muslim....so off he went. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Perhaps I misunderstood. What did you mean by this? The WBC aren't homophobes just because they find it icky I meant the real reason was their religion. As I said in my previous post, the full quote was: Sure, but their religion has a big part to play in that. The WBC aren't homophobes just because they find it icky. In other words, their offended heterosexual sensibilities are not the reason. Their religion is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Yes trolling. Some just want to bash Islam any chance they get. It's not JUST about Islam, it is about gun violence and the access to high powered weapons and the second amendment rights. There are many factors here, but again some simply want to bash Islam .. so yes that is blatant trolling, nothing more. You'll get more examples of that in this thread from certain members, and you wont have to wait long. Squirrel !!!!, yes blame it on gun violence, high powered wpns, and second amendment rights..... I will admit I do not have fire arms in my procession, I do not hunt, nor go to the range for shits and giggles....I got my fix through the military. There are 323 million Americans , of which 1/3 own one or more wpns, or 108 million Americans that own fire arms.... 33,000 deaths related to firearms last year....of which only 8500 were homicides the rest are attributed to suicides, accidents, etc.... you do the math... What percentage of American gun owners use their wpns that cause death ? Deaths by auto mobile still rank the leading cause of deaths within the us....But no ban, nor talk about ban or even calling it a health issue.... Most US gun owners are reasonable gun owners.....But yet like those who say we can not paint all Muslims with the same brush....that argument does not apply for gun owners or their guns.....all AR-15's are bad, evil....All high capacity mags are bad, evil.....and yet how many of these gun deaths were attributed to either....most were carried out by hand guns.....but no ban no health warning on these either..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 None of those quotes are attributed to Jesus are they? They are attributed to the bible and Christianity and are the base for the homophobes in Christianity. It's going to be tough for you to prove otherwise. Homophobes such as one of the major Christian leaders like Pat Robertson: Many of those people involved in Adolf Hitler were Satanists, many were homosexuals - the two things seem to go together. Or like the Christian pastor who, after the Orlando shooting, said this: ‘The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die. The tragedy is I’m kind of upset he didn’t finish the job – because these people are predators. They are abusers.’ ‘I wish the government would round them all up, put them up against a firing wall, put the firing squad in front of them and blow their brains out.’ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Army Guy Most of the killings in the USA via gun violence I suspect are from gangs and people who don't register their firearms OR obtain them legally in the first place. The access to the weapons is one issue, but mental health is also another major factor which gets glossed over in these threads. So there are multiple factors that many here at least understand or acknowledge. Those who pigeon hole this into just Islam are simply trolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 By the way, how did the mosque in Mateen's hometown react to the shooting? Islamic Center of Fort Pierce 12 June at 09:33 · "...whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely." ----------- If you are in the Orlando/Central Florida area, we urge you to donate blood. DONATION CENTERSOrange County Winter Park Donor Center(snip) --------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 "...whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely." An abrogated verse of the Quran. Replace by the Verse of the Sword (Quran 9:5). I know...it sucks having an infidel that has read the Quran/Hadiths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 An abrogated verse of the Quran. Replace by the Verse of the Sword (Quran 9:5). I know...it sucks having an infidel that has read the Quran/Hadiths. What's your solution to the "Islam problem"? You've made about 50 posts in this thread but haven't said anything about what any gov't should do about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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