Another Mass Shooting

[GostHacked]

How do they know?

Guilty until proven innocent, eh?

Exactly, but don't let that stop you from saying all Muslims are guilty.

[waldo]

Nope, nobody was thinking that because it would stupid to compare mistakes, or collateral damage during a war to this. Amazingly, disgustingly stupid. O course we could for good measure throw in every terrorist attract, tally it all up, and see what we get, but that would just reduce us to your level of silly bugger, arguing with a propagandist just isn't worth the trouble, we already know you're wrong, you either never will, or don't care.

no - that post from MLW member marcus was a perfect response to the standard DOPloy; he (DOP) who took it to much more than this localized incident focus. Your described collateral damage does have implications - yes?

.

[Moonlight Graham]

Now I'll say (write - I just want to make sure everyone knows that I'm 'writing' and not actually 'saying') what everyone must not be thinking right about now. How long until the next event where a bomb is dropped from a plane on a wedding killing 30 people? A drone adding to the over 1200 already killed civilians?

We have always been desensitized to this ultra-violence. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Yemen...etc. All blending together and losing distinction. Did they attack 30 or 40 times this year? 50? 60??? More?

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Well played, sir.

[GostHacked]

It's not even the people who follow it. There's 1.6 billion Muslims in the planet. If they were as barbaric as some ignorant people make them out to be, we would all be dead. There's a billion peaceful Muslims, which people ignore whenever this garbage happens. We're talking about a handful of people using religion as a tool to commit atrocities. Sound familiar? It has been happening throughout all of history. You know what else is a good tool to get people to commit atrocities? Fear. And all I see over and over again is a bunch of people sowing fear. What we need right now are leaders who can cut through that rhetoric and remind people that Muslims are also the victims of these terrorists. It's Muslim women they're raping and Muslim men they're torturing. It's Muslim-Americans in the Forces and Muslim allies in the Middle East fighting these animals. These are the facts that are ignored when people hop in the fear-rhetoric bandwagon.

I am not one you need to convince of this. There are others in this thread that bash Muslims and Islam every chance they get. And yes it is fear-mongering via idiotic trolling which got this thread locked yesterday.

I try not to look at it in terms of religion, although I try to understand it (understanding is NOT acceptance of the actions by followers) in terms of actions. The questions I have is why the FBI failed to catch this one. He was investigated by the FBI twice, but was cleared AND apparently removed from a watch-list. But how do you get off these watch-lists? And how complicit is the FBI in this incident.

Another thing that seems to have been brought to light is that this person was able to obtain firearms only a couple weeks prior to the shootings.

[BC_chick]

a whole lotta people in 'shift mode'... why, a new 'experts-from-afar' position holds that this incident has little/nothing to do with 'Islamic terrorism' - simply because the guy was so unknowing and all over the map claiming ties/allegiance to disparate groups like ISIS/al Qaeda versus Hezbollah; groups that actually oppose each other. How does a so-called 'internet inspired' lone-wolf gain inspiration from and attachment to such dissimilar sources? Other "experts-from-afar" are now speaking to 'gay-on-gay' killing... that the shooter was so conflicted over his own sexuality that he went to such an extreme. Then we have the "mental instability" camp! Through all of this gyration, such a burning need to quickly place the guy in "one-box" and wrap a tidy bow around it! Throw in azzholes like Trump taking advantage of the situation... add in the gun-nutter crowd... and it's a multi-faceted palooza of swirling feces that plays to the best strengths of pliers of hate and the worst fears of the insipid meek/mild.

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I'm not an expert, admittedly. Years ago I wondered why mass-shooters like Sandy Hook and Aurora aren't considered terrorists and I read up a bit on how the authorities define each. That's the extent of my knowledge on the issue.

With that limited knowledge, at first I thought it's more of a mass-shooting by a guy who happened to be Muslim. I know any crime committed by a Muslim is 'terrorism' these days, but I did not see it. I changed my mind when I found out he was also casing Disney World and reading ISIS-related literature. That seemed more in line with the textbook definition of terrorism.

However, since writing that post I saw pictures of his wife, hair uncovered and I read about him going to gay bars and drag shows, and now I've reconsidered my second stance.

He really fits both profiles. That's my last armchair assessment and I'm sticking to it.

Edited June 15, 2016 by BC_chick

[Guest]

The questions I have is why the FBI failed to catch this one. He was investigated by the FBI twice, but was cleared AND apparently removed from a watch-list. But how do you get off these watch-lists? And how complicit is the FBI in this incident.

Another thing that seems to have been brought to light is that this person was able to obtain firearms only a couple weeks prior to the shootings.

Amazing that the authorities have the power to add guys like Mateen to a no fly list, but cannot prevent him from legally buying guns.

[-TSS-]

They seem to be holding on to the lone wolf-theory even though there is a lot to suggest that was not the case.

[Guest]

Amazing that the authorities have the power to add guys like Mateen to a no fly list, but cannot prevent him from legally buying guns.

That is very strange.

[waldo]

Amazing that the authorities have the power to add guys like Mateen to a no fly list, but cannot prevent him from legally buying guns.

N.....R.....A!

NRA, Republicans block proposed law to stop suspected terrorists from buying guns in U.S.

.

[Moonlight Graham]

Another thing that seems to have been brought to light is that this person was able to obtain firearms only a couple weeks prior to the shootings.

This is America's problem and they need to look at themselves and how they fundamentally deal with problems if they want to fix it. Killing each other with guns is an essential part of its entire history. They've learned to solve their problems with guns. They didn't like the tyranny of King George, so American Brits shot other brits to freedom. Didn't like slavery, so they shot the slaves free. Some people didn't like the greatest President ever, Lincoln, so they shot him. Didn't like JFK, so they shot him. That sucked then so then some guy shot the guy who shot JFK. Didn't like MLK, shot him. Didn't like Malcolm X, shot him, Didn't like RFK, shot him. Didn't like a Brit named Lennon singing happy songs, shot him. Reagan? Bang. Kurt Cobain didn't like...himself, BOOM.

Now increasingly people who just don't like their lives get fed up and shoot up everyone around them. Single targets are sooo the 60's man! You look at a country like Canada, and we don't have this history with guns, it's not in our DNA the same way. Our country's independence was founded & built by very slow incremental reforms via legislation not violent revolution.

You can ban AR-15's and all assault weapons but it doesn't change the culture, people will still get shot.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Moonlight Graham

[DogOnPorch]

A really good guess given statements from his wife and friends plus scientific evidence.

Yeah...he'd never take the time to plan an attack. He just ran in there and started shooting because he's gay. Happens all the time...

Edited June 15, 2016 by DogOnPorch

[GostHacked]

You can ban AR-15's and all assault weapons but it doesn't change the culture, people will still get shot.

This is true, the motive is there regardless of what is available. Someone mentioned Australia and how many incidents they have had. While major gun related issues dropped, there was a rise in crimes/deaths with other weapons. In China we see regular knife attacks. But no calls to ban knives.

Never said any such thing and I'd appreciate you stop being a liar. Sound good?

Your rhetoric betrays you.

[Argus]

About 10 years ago, in the aftermath of the Australian Muslim rape gang events, an Australian Iman made statements protesting the sentences of the men involved, comparing Australian women to uncovered meat and complaining that you can't blame a dog for stealing uncovered meat. Australian Muslims rose up and fired that Imam. They booted him back to Saudi Arabia. Will we see Muslim congregations take similarly active stands against Imams who preach hate against LGBT people? Or will they sit quietly and nod their heads and hope that the rest of the community doesn't find out what's being preached in their mosque?

One of the problems with local North American Muslims becoming converts of a more radical and hateful (and violent) Islam is that so many of the clerics here are fire-eaters who come from overseas. I've never actually seen any Canadian born clerics speaking in any capacity. I suppose there are a few, but only a few. Instead we get people like this guy. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/aly-hindy-salaheddin-islamic-centre And this guy..

Bear in mind this guy has had many respected positions in Canada. http://en.cijnews.com/?p=18748

So why aren't people like this deported?

[waldo]

COUNTDOWN TO ANOTHER THREAD CLOSE... 10, 9, 8...

[?Impact]

I changed my mind when I found out he was also casing Disney World

...

He really fits both profiles.

Apparently there was a week of "gay days" at Disney World at the time he was casing it. I don't know what that means, it's not like they can change the rides. It is probably more of a safe zone where others are more accepting, although as we see it may not be as much a subtle message for homophobes to stay away but can also attract homicidal maniacs. The point is however casing Disney World at the time was not out of character for homophobia.

...

I agree with your last assessment, way too many factors to make a snap judgement. All the factors had some influence.

[Argus]

a whole lotta people in 'shift mode'... why, a new 'experts-from-afar' position holds that this incident has little/nothing to do with 'Islamic terrorism' - simply because the guy was so unknowing and all over the map claiming ties/allegiance to disparate groups like ISIS/al Qaeda versus Hezbollah; groups that actually oppose each other. How does a so-called 'internet inspired' lone-wolf gain inspiration from and attachment to such dissimilar sources?

Perhaps by being a self-hating homosexual and desperately seeking some way to ameliorate his sinfulness. All such groups promise the same things in terms of Allah's approval if you redeem your wretched life by killing kafirs and infidels, after all. Now a self hating Christian homosexual would not have this option. In fact, what they used to do was join the Catholic Church, where their love of God would require that they remain celibate anyway (in theory). But it's certainly available to Muslims from, as you say, a wide variety of sources within the Muslim diaspora.

[DogOnPorch]

ISIS was not around when the shooter first started declaring loyalty to al-Nusra for example...at least that's my guess.

[cybercoma]

I am not one you need to convince of this. There are others in this thread that bash Muslims and Islam every chance they get. And yes it is fear-mongering via idiotic trolling which got this thread locked yesterday.

I try not to look at it in terms of religion, although I try to understand it (understanding is NOT acceptance of the actions by followers) in terms of actions. The questions I have is why the FBI failed to catch this one. He was investigated by the FBI twice, but was cleared AND apparently removed from a watch-list. But how do you get off these watch-lists? And how complicit is the FBI in this incident.

Another thing that seems to have been brought to light is that this person was able to obtain firearms only a couple weeks prior to the shootings.

The answer is pretty obvious if you ask me. He wasn't a terrorist. He may have sympathized with ISIL, but had no ties. This was a psychopath with access to extremely deadly means. He's a mass murderer like all the others, not a terrorist. People want an explanation for senseless violence when sometimes there isn't one. It makes people feel better when they can point a finger and blame someone who is different from them. This stops them from having to face the harsh reality that these mass murders happen all too frequently in America by a variety of men from different backgrounds but almost always born and raised in Anerica.

[cybercoma]

You can ban AR-15's and all assault weapons but it doesn't change the culture, people will still get shot.

That's just it. This genie ain't going back in the bottle.

[BC_chick]

The answer is pretty obvious if you ask me. He wasn't a terrorist. He may have sympathized with ISIL, but had no ties. This was a psychopath with access to extremely deadly means. He's a mass murderer like all the others, not a terrorist. People want an explanation for senseless violence when sometimes there isn't one. It makes people feel better when they can point a finger and blame someone who is different from them. This stops them from having to face the harsh reality that these mass murders happen all too frequently in America by a variety of men from different backgrounds but almost always born and raised in Anerica.

Mass shooters have no ideological motive.

I agree that this is not a jihadi type of terrorism and more of a lone-wolf nutjob, but he does differ from from mass-shooters in that he was ideologically motivated.

[GostHacked]

The answer is pretty obvious if you ask me. He wasn't a terrorist. He may have sympathized with ISIL, but had no ties. This was a psychopath with access to extremely deadly means. He's a mass murderer like all the others, not a terrorist. People want an explanation for senseless violence when sometimes there isn't one. It makes people feel better when they can point a finger and blame someone who is different from them. This stops them from having to face the harsh reality that these mass murders happen all too frequently in America by a variety of men from different backgrounds but almost always born and raised in Anerica.

That seems to be the case. I would not look at him as a terrorist but just another nutjob that killed a bunch of people. I can claim to do something in the name of *.* , but if I have no ties to that *.* then using it as a talking point is simply misleading the public.

Edited June 15, 2016 by GostHacked

[The_Squid]

Perhaps by being a self-hating homosexual and desperately seeking some way to ameliorate his sinfulness. All such groups promise the same things in terms of Allah's approval if you redeem your wretched life by killing kafirs and infidels, after all. Now a self hating Christian homosexual would not have this option. In fact, what they used to do was join the Catholic Church, where their love of God would require that they remain celibate anyway (in theory). But it's certainly available to Muslims from, as you say, a wide variety of sources within the Muslim diaspora.

Neat story bro.... Christians have never justified killing people through their bible, eh? Other than all the abortion clinic bombers and doctor killers... and the gay bashers who have killed many gay people in the name of Jesus over the years.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-gay-pride-la-weapons-20160612-snap-story.html

Why was this guy potentially going to do the same thing? Funny.... the article doesn't mention his religion....

Edited June 15, 2016 by The_Squid

[Army Guy]

Yes there are a whole lot of people in shift mode, as more information comes out, the picture is becoming clearer every day.

The experts from afar have concluded that this is a terrorist attack, one of those sources is the President of the United states who has more resources at his finger tips than any one on this forum. But hey so he was all over the map with his ties, the fact remains that during his attack he claimed he did it for the group known as ISIS, in fact that is what he tells the 911 operator.....and then we have ISIS claiming reasonability for said attack " One of our soldiers was able to carry out a security invasion at a crusaders gathering"

Waldo says "How does a so-called 'internet inspired' lone-wolf gain inspiration from and attachment to such dissimilar sources?"

Yes they are 2 conflicting organizations that fight each other but what do they have in common, well the hate for the west, America, Israel, all other forms of religion, the LGBT community, they also share the same religion ISlam... in fact the list of common threads here is actually very large....

Lets start connecting the dots shall we , Omar was a devout Muslim, he attended the mosque regularly....he has also been questioned by the FBI on 2 separate occasions, has ties with a convicted Orlando Iman known for his blatant extremism and connecting Home grown terrorist with KNOWN terrorist groups abroad....allowing them to get training or indoctrination when needed.....Omar has had 2 trips to Saudi Arabia , with Saudi officials only noting one official trip,his passport was only stamped once....where did he go, nobody knows...FBI is following up.

Omars father....Supporter of the Taliban regime, Proclaims himself as the leader of Afghanistan, and a politician....and has said numerous times "god himself will punish those involved in Homosexuality" I know he sounds like a bit of a nut job, but what type of influence did this nut ball have on his son...with his political beliefs, His extremist religious views....

With all these dots to follow one could only come up with one mode.....That this act was a terrorist act carried out by a Islamic terrorist....When is everyone going to get on the same page that Islam and it's radicals are the problem that need to be looked at by both sides Muslims and westerns. But we can't do that because we can not talk about Muslims without being pigeon holed into other categories that make talks impossible..... instead we will find other excuses like easy accessible firearms is the problem, or this guy was mental...But lets not talk about the elephant in the room Islam....the religion of peace...

[BC_chick]

Army Guy, you're gonna get this thread locked again.

DoP already didn't listen but I notice they removed his posts.

Please read Kimmy's post, this is not a thread about Islam.

[Bonam]

It's not even the people who follow it. There's 1.6 billion Muslims in the planet. If they were as barbaric as some ignorant people make them out to be, we would all be dead. There's a billion peaceful Muslims, which people ignore whenever this garbage happens.

So in your opinion, then, 600 million Muslims are not "peaceful"?