Another Mass Shooting

[DogOnPorch]

Should we not have mentioned the role his religion played in both his hatred of homosexuals, and his decision to do what he did?

Allowing folks to treat Islam as if it was a skin colour rather than a religion is not correct. White guys can be Muslims, too.

[GostHacked]

I'm a Canadian.

Well, don't let that stop you from answering a question. But even if you go with that, then why you posting here anyways? Even here we have some fascist laws where someone can be detained without charge indefinitely.

My issue is with Islam. Not individuals. Oskar Schindler was a good Nazi. Cult members can always leave their violent cult...unless there's some sort of violent penalty for that.

Is there?

Ah, thanks for clarification. You are are against Islamic fascism and not fascism in general.

[Guest]

There is something different with the brain function of the mass shooters that is not present in most other brains.

This is a given, I think, and goes back in this case to the strange fact that when you associate religion with behaviour it's assumed you mean them all when it's a Muslim.

Obviously he was not completely sane or he wouldn't have shot up the bar in the first place. He wouldn't be religious if he were completely sane. Different levels of insanity, sure, but still.

That said, what role do you think his religion played in his decision to do what he did?

[Guest]

Allowing folks to treat Islam as if it was a skin colour rather than a religion is not correct. White guys can be Muslims, too.

Good point.

[DogOnPorch]

Well, don't let that stop you from answering a question. But even if you go with that, then why you posting here anyways? Even here we have some fascist laws where someone can be detained without charge indefinitely.

Ah, thanks for clarification. You are are against Islamic fascism and not fascism in general.

I'm against all fascism, straw-man.

[DogOnPorch]

I also gather BC_chick decided her politics can't allow her to say what punishment Mohammad prescribed for homosexuals after reading and exiting the thread.

[GostHacked]

Has he ever been diagnosed? Ever even seen by a psychiatrist or psychologist? Maybe this guy was troubled, but a lot of people are troubled and don't go on killing sprees. But then most of those people don't belong to religions which praise jihad and promise life everlasting and a pile of virgins if you die fighting the filthy infidels.

The shootings in Sandy Hook and Aurora were also mentally unstable, and they were not Muslims.

[Big Guy]

I would think that the board's newly minted Muslim Expert would be aware that Mohammad didn't come along until almost 600 years AFTER Jesus.

And to reiterate what I said earlier: if your new comedy schtick starts derailing this thread into a bunch of inane banter, it's going to end. Consider this the "thin ice" warning.

-k

How about the "old" schtick?

If giving a Muslims point of view is a "schtick" then what do you call all those racist remarks by other anonymous posters? If you don't like the message then go after the messenger?

You suggest that I create another avatar and come on to this board in that manner? Or is there no room for somebody looking at Muslims as just fellow human beings?

As to "inane banter" how about “the inherent hatred of gay people in Islam “ Where in the Koran does it incite people into “hatred” of gay people. Does that sound racist to you?

And as for other racist comments;”It also bothers me that the media seems to be trying to make Muslims the victims of this attack. Just as after Cologne we were deluged with stories about Muslims who felt bad about what happened, Muslims whose feelings were hurt by negative comments about Islam in wake of the mass assaults, Muslims who were giving flowers to German women, Muslims who were upset that German women didn't want to go #withinarmsreach of them, and so on. Now we're being inundated with stories about Muslims who feel bad about what happened, Muslims whose feelings have been hurt by negative comments about Islam in wake of the mass shooting, Muslims who are donating blood, Muslims who have gay friends, gay Muslims who have gay friends, Muslims who put flowers at makeshift memorials, Muslims who have put rainbow bumper-stickers on their cars, and so-on. “

Seems like the author of that one is upset by anything that portrays Muslims as acting like human beings.

I suggest that you get a second opinion of what is “schtick” and what is messaging that you personally do not like.

[?Impact]

So you know how some of the most outspoken gay-haters turn out to be closeted gays?

It turns out that Omar Mateen may have in fact been a regular at the club, and was a user of the gay hook-up app "Grindr".

-k

Yes, I saw that on the news last night. It does open up more questions.

1. Could he just be "casing the joint", making his plans and getting up his "courage" to do his despicable acts?

- One report I heard was that he was asking around for the "gay club" just before the shooting. If he had been in there for months, why would he need to know that, unless he was just trying to set the stage for his "legacy".

2. His father said he became upset when he saw two men kissing in public a while back. How does that date relate to when he started visiting the club?

- Could it be just prior to when he started visiting the club?

- Could it be that he thought he would be recognized by the gays, and his lifestyle exposed to his father?

3. While he had been seen in the club on previous occasions, has anyone come forward saying he participated in a gay lifestyle. Does he have any boyfriends/lovers/one night stands? If so, did he kill all of them? Perhaps he made plans with them to meet them there that night, his phone records, email, and other electronic communications might provide some insight.

[eyeball]

I'd like to remind you of the loving, compassionate Muslims of Orlando who invited this "scholar" to speak at their event just a few months ago.

-k

How many Muslims in Orlando invited him? Did they sign a petition or something?

[Big Guy]

I think I get to be furious over the massacre of dozens of people for a while longer before I start worrying about the Muslims whose feelings have been hurt in the aftermath.

-k

You can get as furious as you want but to direct it at Muslims is bigotry.

Do you not see that directing your emotions at a "group" who are completely innocent of any participation in this murder spree, you are showing just how you prejudge a whole religion?

You have been empowered by the owners of this board to make judgments based in impartiality and the envelope of conditions of participation.

I suggest that you look in a mirror and do a little impartial judging before you start to judge others.

[DogOnPorch]

Islam deserves no respect that is unearned.

[Guest]

How many Muslims in Orlando invited him? Did they sign a petition or something?

It doesn't matter, does it? Those who did are bastards. Those who are indifferent are indifferent, and those who objected are good people.

It's easy when you apply the rules to Muslims as well.

[BC_chick]

This is a given, I think, and goes back in this case to the strange fact that when you associate religion with behaviour it's assumed you mean them all when it's a Muslim.

Obviously he was not completely sane or he wouldn't have shot up the bar in the first place. He wouldn't be religious if he were completely sane. Different levels of insanity, sure, but still.

That said, what role do you think his religion played in his decision to do what he did?

His religion planted the seed the homophobia no doubt, but I've been arguing that it was ultimately his mental instability that made him do what he did.

To back up my argument, I've brought up the fact that the motive of mass-shooters has variance whereas a malignant aggressive personality is the only commonality.

[DogOnPorch]

His religion planted the seed the homophobia no doubt, but I've been arguing that it was ultimately his mental instability that made him do what he did.

To back up my argument, I've brought up the fact that the motive of mass-shooters has variance whereas a malignant aggressive personality is the only commonality.

What did Mohammad say about homosexuality? Is it okay for Muslims to go against Mohammad's wishes?

[BC_chick]

I also gather BC_chick decided her politics can't allow her to say what punishment Mohammad prescribed for homosexuals after reading and exiting the thread.

I have 'unofficially' put you on ignore.

I find the majority of your posts are incoherent and you're overall too unreasonable for a discussion.

[Guest]

His religion planted the seed the homophobia no doubt, but I've been arguing that it was ultimately his mental instability that made him do what he did.

To back up my argument, I've brought up the fact that the motive of mass-shooters has variance whereas a malignant aggressive personality is the only commonality.

Right, but without his religion, what might he have done? Would gay people in Iran for instance, be better off if there were no Islam? The religion, in my opinion, was a major factor, and it is wrong to try and sweep it under the rug.

[DogOnPorch]

I have 'unofficially' put you on ignore.

I find the majority of your posts are incoherent and you're overall too unreasonable for a discussion.

That's one way not to answer the tricky questions.

[Big Guy]

Islam deserves no respect that is unearned.

Another armchair religious scholar rationalizing his/her racism. Do you respect Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Taoism, Judaism ... I suggest that it will depend on the predominant color and culture of the followers.

"Islam deserves no respect this is unearned". More correctly it should read - Islam deserves the respect that it has earned. Those billions of followers may know something that you do not know.

[DogOnPorch]

Right, but without his religion, what might he have done? Would gay people in Iran for instance, be better off if there were no Islam? The religion, in my opinion, was a major factor, and it is wrong to try and sweep it under the rug.

You can say what the punishment for homosexuality prescribed by Mohammad is. Right?

[DogOnPorch]

Another armchair religious scholar rationalizing his/her racism. Do you respect Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Taoism, Judaism ... I suggest that it will depend on the predominant color and culture of the followers.

"Islam deserves no respect this is unearned". More correctly it should read - Islam deserves the respect that it has earned. Those billions of followers may know something that you do not know.

Islam is a religion. Not a race or skin colour.

[BC_chick]

Right, but without his religion, what might he have done? Would gay people in Iran for instance, be better off if there were no Islam? The religion, in my opinion, was a major factor, and it is wrong to try and sweep it under the rug.

There are millions of Muslims in the US who are not shooting up gay bars so it's obviously something in addition to his beliefs that made him act this way.

OTOH, there are literally dozens of mass shooters in the US who were not Muslim.

Go ahead and keep saying it's his religion though.

[DogOnPorch]

There are millions of Muslims in the US who are not shooting up gay bars so it's obviously something in addition to his beliefs that made him act this way.

OTOH, there are literally dozens of mass shooters in the US who were not Muslim.

Go ahead and keep saying it's his religion though.

"Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver."

---Mohammad

[marcus]

I agree with religion itself being irrational but I disagree with the rest. There are Christians who are willing to shoot up Planned Parenthood when the rest others 'brave enough' or 'angry enough'. There also atheists 'brave enough' and 'angry enough' to shoot up movie theatres and schools.

As a deeply entrenched psychopathological condition, homophobia is not exclusive to any religion or any people.

There are homophobic Jews, homophobic Christians, homophobic Hindus, homophobic atheists, and plenty of homophobic Muslims too. Their common denominator is not their communal membership in any religion but their identical homophobia.

There has been homophobic violence in all communities and among all religious denominations. When expressed in such gruesome violent crimes, such homophobic acts of violence could very well be a sign of the repressed and denied homosexuality of the perpetrator himself.

There are many other lessons to be learned from this heinous crime in Florida. But this particular trait of homophobia among Muslims and the moral and ethical complexities that Muslims as Muslims face is perhaps the most urgent for Muslims.

The law enforcement officials have now habitually gone off on a tangent to the goose-chase of Mateen's bogus links to the ISIL. That is a dead-end decoy and will lead to nothing but more confusion and chaos in dealing with the root cause of such crimes.

But that fact does not relieve Muslims from doing their own urgent soul-searching concerning homophobia. Yes there are many other factors involved here: from the US-led invasion of Iraq to the major US allies state sponsored fanaticism in the Arab and Muslim world and beyond to the obscenity of the availability of assault weapons in the US. But none of those factors should distract Muslims from a fundamental fear of homoerotic sexuality in their own midst.

Edited June 14, 2016 by marcus

[Big Guy]

Different views by different folks:

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.724728