Another Mass Shooting

[kimmy]

So before the thread got locked, some people were mad that I was less-than-impressed by the Muslim community's efforts to show "solidarity" with the LGBT community.

Put flowers at a crappy memorial? Who cares? Put a rainbow bumper-sticker on your car? Who gives a shit?

Considering that Orlando Muslims invited this guy to their community to speak just a couple of months ago, their attempts to tell people how much they love gay people ring really hollow to me.

Dr Sakaleshfar has just cancelled his speaking tour in Australia because of negative publicity resulting from the Orlando massacre.

Did Australian Muslims ask him to go home because they disagree with his message? No. They asked him to go home because his presence would bring negative attention to their community. To me, that embodies why these declarations of support ring hollow.

To me, if they really supported the LGBT community, they'd raise holy hell before he arrived in town. They didn't... they asked him to leave after the whole world found out who he is and where he was. This guy has been speaking all over, for years, and he only becomes persona-non-grata after his chance proximity to a massacre of LGBT people put him in the spotlight. So how seriously can I take your little rainbow stickers and your flowers?

-k

[eyeball]

What if he was trying to lash out at the disgust his father and society in general have towards homosexuals in a way that would focus a light on both the Islamic and American values underlying that disgust?

Whatever else he might have had in mind he certainly managed to throw some serious gasoline on a pyre piled high with just about the most contentious issues in the US today, Islamophobia, homophobia and of course gun control.

Edited June 15, 2016 by eyeball

[eyeball]

I can see how living in both a state of fear and as a basis for fear might affect someone too. In the case of an American Muslim homosexual they'd probably face a double dose of that.

[eyeball]

If there's anything that most desperately needs to come out of this disaster it's probably a discussion about the nature and consequences of people's fears.

How many victim's families are also having to come to terms with finding out their son was gay and feared and loathed? Hell of a way to be forced out of the closet.

[Bonam]

So before the thread got locked, some people were mad that I was less-than-impressed by the Muslim community's efforts to show "solidarity" with the LGBT community.

Put flowers at a crappy memorial? Who cares? Put a rainbow bumper-sticker on your car? Who gives a shit?

Considering that Orlando Muslims invited this guy to their community to speak just a couple of months ago, their attempts to tell people how much they love gay people ring really hollow to me.

Dr Sakaleshfar has just cancelled his speaking tour in Australia because of negative publicity resulting from the Orlando massacre.

Did Australian Muslims ask him to go home because they disagree with his message? No. They asked him to go home because his presence would bring negative attention to their community. To me, that embodies why these declarations of support ring hollow.

To me, if they really supported the LGBT community, they'd raise holy hell before he arrived in town. They didn't... they asked him to leave after the whole world found out who he is and where he was. This guy has been speaking all over, for years, and he only becomes persona-non-grata after his chance proximity to a massacre of LGBT people put him in the spotlight. So how seriously can I take your little rainbow stickers and your flowers?

-k

Good points. Of course, those who most need to understand them will simply shrug them off, so convinced are they of the righteousness of their position.

[Moonlight Graham]

Considering that Orlando Muslims invited this guy to their community to speak just a couple of months ago, their attempts to tell people how much they love gay people ring really hollow to me.

Dr Sakaleshfar has just cancelled his speaking tour in Australia because of negative publicity resulting from the Orlando massacre.

That doctor is a sick man to rationalize murder like he does, and wrap the killing of gays in a cloak of "love and compassion" for them. I agree that Muslim communities have to step their game up and reject this kind of thing or face the fiercest condemnation from the rest of us.

Immigrants in general need to step their game up. And we're far too accommodating of certain aspects of their cultures. Immigrants are free to practice many aspects of their culture, but primarily they must embrace our laws and the most fundamental values that they're based on. If your cultural/religious practices come into conflict with our laws, the law should generally always take precedent. If you don't agree with this, get the f*** out. If I moved to ie: a middle-eastern country I'd be sure to know to be respectful and abide by their rules or GTFO.

Anyways, interesting to see the reaction about this Iranian in FL.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Moonlight Graham

[DogOnPorch]

Now I'll say what everyone must be thinking right about now. How long until the next event like this?

We are getting desensitized to this ultra-violence. Paris, Brussels...etc. All blending together and losing distinction. Did they attack six or seven times this year? Eight? Nine??? More?

So how long? Some of us are busy forgetting this event right now.

Edited June 15, 2016 by DogOnPorch

[marcus]

Now I'll say (write - I just want to make sure everyone knows that I'm 'writing' and not actually 'saying') what everyone must not be thinking right about now. How long until the next event where a bomb is dropped from a plane on a wedding killing 30 people? A drone adding to the over 1200 already killed civilians?

We have always been desensitized to this ultra-violence. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Yemen...etc. All blending together and losing distinction. Did they attack 30 or 40 times this year? 50? 60??? More?

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[waldo]

This is not going to turn into a generalized Bash Islam thread.

So before the thread got locked, some people were mad that I was less-than-impressed by the Muslim community's efforts to show "solidarity" with the LGBT community.

Put flowers at a crappy memorial? Who cares? Put a rainbow bumper-sticker on your car? Who gives a shit?

Considering that Orlando Muslims invited this guy to their community to speak just a couple of months ago, their attempts to tell people how much they love gay people ring really hollow to me.

ya ya, kimmy... that's right, "Orlando Muslims" did that... all of them! It wasn't just "some number" within that particular mosque in question, right? It was your described, "Orlando Muslims" - all of them!

.

Edited June 15, 2016 by waldo

[Guest]

Don't forget Kimmy, use the handy, single letter prefix "b" when referring to "bad" Muslims. Like this: bMuslims.

it will help prevent people deflecting from your point by implying the ridiculous notion that you meant every last one of them.

[GostHacked]

One thing I was thinking about last night was that this incident plays well into Trump's rhetoric.

[cybercoma]

The people who continue to make this a war between Muslims and non-Muslims not only miss the point that there are Muslims not only in the US military but around the world fighting against extremists. They miss the point that ISIL is predominantly butchering not Westerners but other Muslims. They miss the point that turning this into a fight against Islam is exactly what ISIL wants because it plays into their propaganda. They miss the point that isolating and ostracizing the billion Muslims who don't buy into this radicalism will actually drive some of them to it as they give up on a society that's in some cases outwardly hostile towards them.

This is not a fight against Islam. It's a fight against terrorists and radicals. Mass murders, moreover, are endemic to American society. From Sandy Hook to Virginia Tech to Orlando, these are home-grown butchers who were born and raised in America, were able to purchase high-capacity guns in America, and slipped through the cracks of a piss poor mental health system in America. Radicals use Islam as a tool for recruiting those who feel abandoned by society. The further we reject embracing peaceful Muslims and fighting against the juvenile "us vs them" mentality, the more radicals will thrive.

You all think about that when you're feeding into ISIL's holy war narrative when you're on here blaming the religion of Malcolm X, who fought for human rights and justice. You think about that when you're bashing the religion of those who are on the front lines fighting back against ISIL. When you make this a holy war, when you make this about Islam, ISIL wins. A lot of you are working overtime doing their work for them and you don't even realize it.

[Guest]

It's not a war on Islam. It's just pointing out that the religion can be pretty bad when it wants to be.

[GostHacked]

It's not a war on Islam. It's just pointing out that the religion can be pretty bad when it wants to be.

It's not the religion, it is the people that follow it.

[Guest]

It's not the religion, it is the people that follow it.

Yes, exactly. A religion on its own can't get about that much.

[kimmy]

ya ya, kimmy... that's right, "Orlando Muslims" did that... all of them! It wasn't just "some number" within that particular mosque in question, right? It was your described, "Orlando Muslims" - all of them!

.

So it was just the Husseini Islamic Center-- and just the directors thereof-- who invited him. How did the rest of the community react?

Did they sound the alarm and say "hey! This doesn't represent us! We don't want this guy here!" or did they keep their mouths shut and hope nobody noticed, or did they attend the lecture and nod their heads? As the video shows, TV station contacted the Husseini Center for comment and their response was essentially that they can have whoever we like speak about whatever topic they like, and it's a private function, so MYOB. Now the Husseini Center has a statement on their site how they share the grief of the nation. Sincere? Maybe their feelings on the execution of gay people have changed since Dr Sakaleshfar came to town.

About 10 years ago, in the aftermath of the Australian Muslim rape gang events, an Australian Iman made statements protesting the sentences of the men involved, comparing Australian women to uncovered meat and complaining that you can't blame a dog for stealing uncovered meat. Australian Muslims rose up and fired that Imam. They booted him back to Saudi Arabia. Will we see Muslim congregations take similarly active stands against Imams who preach hate against LGBT people? Or will they sit quietly and nod their heads and hope that the rest of the community doesn't find out what's being preached in their mosque?

-k

[Guest]

The fearful and fascist right wing, Us Vs Them, response of build walls and drop bombs is a major problem However, the regressive left, self loathing, apologetic, the West is to blame response helps to exacerbate the harm. Extremism is the problem, whether it be right wing racists, Muslim terrorists, Islamists asserting religious law over a population or Christian theocrats codifying their homophobic views into state law.

Maajid Nawaz has given talks showing how effectively extremist groups use the internet and the conservative, us vs Islam response to grow their ranks. Fascism is on the rise in much the same way creating an extreme and ideological arms race. However, denying the involvement of Islam is about as helpful as praying for shooting victims. Right wing, bigots and Christian apologists need to be shut down and educated, but so does the regressive left.

The killer of Orlando was a homophobic Muslim extremist, inspired by an ideological take on my own religion, Islam.

It is time that we liberals took the fabled red pill and accepted reality. Just as this clearly has something to do with outdated gun laws, and just as those laws need reform, this also has something to do with Islam, which also needs reform today. No other stance makes any sense.

Liberals who claim that this has nothing to do with Islam today are being as unhelpful and as ignorant as conservatives who claim that this represents all of Islam. The problem so obviously has something to do with Islam.

That something is Islamism, or the desire to impose any version of Islam over any society. Jihadism is the attempt to do so by force. This ideology of Islamism has been rising almost unchecked among Muslims for decades. It is a theocratic ideology, and theocracy should no longer have any place in the world today. - Maajid Nawaz http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/14/admit-it-these-terrorists-are-muslims.html

Edited June 15, 2016 by Guest

[eyeball]

The killer of Orlando was a homophobic Muslim extremist, inspired by an ideological take on my own religion, Islam.

The killer was also homosexual. Whatever it is that inspired him there is more to it than simple theocracy.

[DogOnPorch]

The killer was also homosexual. Whatever it is that inspired him there is more to it than simple theocracy.

How do you know he was a homosexual?

[eyeball]

The news.

[DogOnPorch]

The news.

How do they know?

Guilty until proven innocent, eh?

[eyeball]

A really good guess given statements from his wife and friends plus scientific evidence.

Mateen may well bear out the well-worn maxim that the biggest homophobes tend to be gay themselves—or harboring same-sex desires they are revolted by, and in revolt to. This theory is even grounded in the scientific research of a 2012 study.

A new analysis of implicit bias and explicit sexual orientation statements may help to explain the underpinnings of anti-gay bullying and hate crimes

[poochy]

Now I'll say (write - I just want to make sure everyone knows that I'm 'writing' and not actually 'saying') what everyone must not be thinking right about now. How long until the next event where a bomb is dropped from a plane on a wedding killing 30 people? A drone adding to the over 1200 already killed civilians?

We have always been desensitized to this ultra-violence. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Yemen...etc. All blending together and losing distinction. Did they attack 30 or 40 times this year? 50? 60??? More?

Image

Image

Nope, nobody was thinking that because it would stupid to compare mistakes, or collateral damage during a war to this. Amazingly, disgustingly stupid. O course we could for good measure throw in every terrorist attract, tally it all up, and see what we get, but that would just reduce us to your level of silly bugger, arguing with a propagandist just isn't worth the trouble, we already know you're wrong, you either never will, or don't care.

[cybercoma]

It's not the religion, it is the people that follow it.

It's not even the people who follow it. There's 1.6 billion Muslims in the planet. If they were as barbaric as some ignorant people make them out to be, we would all be dead. There's a billion peaceful Muslims, which people ignore whenever this garbage happens. We're talking about a handful of people using religion as a tool to commit atrocities. Sound familiar? It has been happening throughout all of history. You know what else is a good tool to get people to commit atrocities? Fear. And all I see over and over again is a bunch of people sowing fear. What we need right now are leaders who can cut through that rhetoric and remind people that Muslims are also the victims of these terrorists. It's Muslim women they're raping and Muslim men they're torturing. It's Muslim-Americans in the Forces and Muslim allies in the Middle East fighting these animals. These are the facts that are ignored when people hop in the fear-rhetoric bandwagon.

[waldo]

Given the new developments on this today, I've changed my position. I no longer think this was a mass shooting, I agree that it was Islamic terrorism.

a whole lotta people in 'shift mode'... why, a new 'experts-from-afar' position holds that this incident has little/nothing to do with 'Islamic terrorism' - simply because the guy was so unknowing and all over the map claiming ties/allegiance to disparate groups like ISIS/al Qaeda versus Hezbollah; groups that actually oppose each other. How does a so-called 'internet inspired' lone-wolf gain inspiration from and attachment to such dissimilar sources? Other "experts-from-afar" are now speaking to 'gay-on-gay' killing... that the shooter was so conflicted over his own sexuality that he went to such an extreme. Then we have the "mental instability" camp! Through all of this gyration, such a burning need to quickly place the guy in "one-box" and wrap a tidy bow around it! Throw in azzholes like Trump taking advantage of the situation... add in the gun-nutter crowd... and it's a multi-faceted palooza of swirling feces that plays to the best strengths of pliers of hate and the worst fears of the insipid meek/mild.

.