This week in Islam

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Marocc said:

What is a Muslim assaults someone sexually?

Is it done because of his cultural values? Ie, like those multiple groups of Pakistani Muslims in the UK who have been arrested for molesting young girls because "they're whores anyway"?

 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

As I pointed out, highlighting individual misdeeds as attributable to the group is only encouraged for Muslims.

Only if the misdeeds appear guided by values derived from Islam's intolerance and inherent violence.

[GostHacked]

15 minutes ago, Argus said:

What if he goes in and shoots everyone in the bank while screaming God is Great?

Don't you mean something like Aluh Ackbar??

[Marocc]

39 minutes ago, Argus said:

 

The Muslim World League (MWL; Arabic: رابطة العالم الاسلامي‎, Rabitat al-Alam al-Islami, Arabic pronunciation: [ra:bitˤat al ʕa:lami al isla:mij]) is Pan-Islamic^{[dubious – discuss][1]}NGO based in Makkah, Saudi Arabia that propagates Islamic teachings.^[2][3] The NGO was funded by the Saudi government from its inception in 1962,^[4] with that contribution growing to approximately $13 million by 1980.^[2] Because of the Saudi funding, the League is widely regarded as promoting Wahhabism.^[2]The Oxford Dictionary of Islam says that "the group has acted as a mouthpiece for the Saudi Arabian government, which finances it."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_World_League

There's no such thing as Wahabbism.

[Marocc]

26 minutes ago, Argus said:

No other group commits so much religious violence. No other group has such bigoted religious beliefs and values. And no other group is flooding into Canada at the rate of a hundred thousand a year.

Where do you make the distinctive line between religious violence and violence that happens to be done by a Muslim?

[Marocc]

49 minutes ago, Argus said:

Among what, 700,000 Islamic clerics? And how many of those clerics you quote would issue a fatwa against killing blasphemers?

Are there other states which, by law, treat men and women differently in court cases, in inheritance, in family rights, in criminal law? Do they also treat all people who are not the same religion as the majority as second class citizens? Do they criminalize those who blaspheme or commit adultery or try to leave their religion? And remember, it is not SOME Muslim states. It is every single one of them.

Not all clerics are qualified to issue fatwas. And such a fatwa as you propose would be entirely unislamic.

Different doesn't have to be worse.

[Michael Hardner]

29 minutes ago, Goddess said:

To an extent I agree with you.  1. Except that there really is no Islamic authority.  There is no one (as in the number 1, for clarity) authority telling Muslims Yes, kill apostates or No, don't kill them.  There is no one authority telling Muslims Yes, beat your wife into submission, or No, don't beat them at all.  There is no one authority telling Muslims Yes, all women must be in burkas, or No, women do not have to be in burkas. 

2. Individual Muslims are free to make these choices for themselves, and there are no consequences within the religion for choosing the worst interpretations possible.

3. So, to avoid criticizing Individual Muslims, we go by what is practiced mainstream.

4. I have never denied that individual Muslims can and do choose more tolerant interpretations of Islam.  But those individual Muslims do not represent the majority, nor do they represent what is taught in the mainstream. 

5. Arguments here are frequently because some are arguing whether an Islamic teaching is mainstream in the group as a whole or whether it's just mainstream in certain countries.  Some like to go back and forth between whether a teaching is accepted in just one country or whether it's accepted in other countries - it depends which one supports their particular argument at the time.

 

Your post is too long to reply to on a phone.

1. Fine.  Then criticize countries, Imams and councils for their teachings.

2. This is a logical tautology.  If they are interpreting the holy book on their own they obviously won't see any wrong in what they're doing.   There is no central authority from calling yourself Muslim  though, that's true of Islam and other Faiths.

3. That's ridiculous.  It's like saying you aren't criticizing individual blacks, just saying that on the whole they're thieves.

4. Majority where ?  In Canada ?  You are grouping them together to give yourself room to dismiss them and make pejorative generalizations.

5. You can criticize the religion based on the teachings of a significant authority, but clarify and quantify what you are saying.  Otherwise you're talking to separate people, disunify, and scapegoat. 

The sides aren't pro- vs anti- Islam on this thread.  They are 'Muslims are human' vs. 'Muslims are less than other humans'.  The latter is the disunifying message that people are taking to undo our pluralistic and successful democracy.

[Marocc]

34 minutes ago, Argus said:

What if he goes in and shoots everyone in the bank while screaming God is Great?

It would be a mistake to assume that just because someone says God is great while they do something means they have religious reasons.

[Marocc]

46 minutes ago, Goddess said:

To an extent I agree with you.  Except that there really is no Islamic authority.  There is no one (as in the number 1, for clarity) authority telling Muslims Yes, kill apostates or No, don't kill them.  There is no one authority telling Muslims Yes, beat your wife into submission, or No, don't beat them at all.  There is no one authority telling Muslims Yes, all women must be in burkas, or No, women do not have to be in burkas. Individual Muslims are free to make these choices for themselves, and there are no consequences within the religion for choosing the worst interpretations possibl

 

The final and supreme authority for Muslims is the Qur'an, and the sunnah. Which answers perfectly clearly to all your questions above.

The concequence when a Muslim doesn't live rightly by the Qur'an and the Sunnah is at worst that they will be outside the fold of Islam - a non-Muslim.

[DogOnPorch]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

DoP references something referring to Muslims killing people.

 

You're free to deny what the Quran and Hadiths say even with the words staring you in the face. However, be aware that killing apostates is part of Islam and will be followed by x% of the Umma...to the letter.

How do we determine which folks will follow Allah's orders...not suggestions...and act on those verses of the Quran/Hadiths?

Hmmmmm?

You can't.

 

[Goddess]

22 minutes ago, Marocc said:

It would be a mistake to assume that just because someone says God is great while they do something means they have religious reasons.

If Christians around the world were bombing and stabbing and driving vans into crowds of Muslims and screaming "Jesus is the greatest!" while they do it, you can't tell me that you and Dia and MH wouldn't be "assuming" a religious motive.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Goddess

[QuebecOverCanada]

59 minutes ago, Goddess said:

To an extent I agree with you.  Except that there really is no Islamic authority. 

And if I told you the authority was the Q'uran itself, being the last words of God? Interpreted literally, being a good Muslim is to obey to its laws and rules to obedience for this dogma.

 

[Goddess]

2 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

And if I told you the authority was the Q'uran itself, being the last words of God? Interpreted literally, being a good Muslim is to obey to its laws and rules to obedience for this dogma.

 

There's several here who argue that Muslims in general do not believe or follow the Quran's admonitions.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Goddess

[Marocc]

18 minutes ago, Goddess said:

If Christians around the world were bombing and stabbing and driving vans into crowds of Muslims and screaming "Jesus is the greatest!" while they do it, you can't tell me that you and Dia and MH wouldn't be "assuming" a religious motive.

I wouldn't. I call that shirk - associating someone with Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala). In Islam it is the greatest sin.

However, the Christians don't have, in the common languages they speak, such words. The middle Easterns do. They repeat them all the time and it needs not be in any correlation to their religiousity. Farther more, the reason the terrorists shout it is to agitate people. They want you to hate Muslims. They want war, but these are just sparks.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Marocc

[Marocc]

14 minutes ago, Goddess said:

There's several here who argue that Muslims in general do not believe or follow the Quran's admonitions.

You're seeing DoP triple I guess.

[Marocc]

19 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

And if I told you the authority was the Q'uran itself, being the last words of God? Interpreted literally, being a good Muslim is to obey to its laws and rules to obedience for this dogma.

 

Not "last words". You have last words, Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) doesn't.

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, Marocc said:

Then you have to figure out if that leader hates more the Muslims or the Jews. If he hates Muslims and you hate Muslims, he's a fine leader and if he hates the jews and you hate the jews he's a fine leader. If he hates another from who you do he's called a x-thing apologists.

That's an interesting view but we Christians do not define things by what we hate.

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, Marocc said:

 

Duplicated

Edited July 11, 2019 by OftenWrong

[Marocc]

Just now, OftenWrong said:

That's an interesting view but we Christians do not define things by what we hate.

Good one.

[OftenWrong]

10 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Good one

Certainly forgiveness is a Christian virtue, central tenet to our culture and laws. Not sure if the same can be said, for Islam. Seems they like their punishments.

[OftenWrong]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

As I pointed out, highlighting individual misdeeds as attributable to the group is only encouraged for Muslims.

Waiting for you to start highlighting the good deeds then.

[Marocc]

4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Certainly forgiveness is a Christian virtue, central tenet to our culture and laws. Not sure if the same can be said, for Islam. Seems they like their punishments.

Punishment doesn't have to exclude forgiveness. Muslims want forgiveness from Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala).

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Waiting for you to start highlighting the good deeds then.

What for?  Will it help? Do you say that because there aren't any?

I feel like I already have done that in the past, too.

There was a time when people used to say Muslims didn't condemn violence.  Then people showed them that Muslims did condemn violence.  So they found something else bad to say.

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, Marocc said:

Punishment doesn't have to exclude forgiveness. Muslims want forgiveness from Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala).

What good is forgiveness when your hands have been chopped off or your wife was shot in the head for having a strand of hair come loose from her hijab?

[Marocc]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

Islam seems to want to skate by on the "We don't have an official doctrine on that so you can't call us on it."

So when some argue that what mainstream Islam teaches is best illustrated by what the majority Muslim countries do......there is logic to that, whether you care to admit it or not.

And what mainstream Islam practices is reflected in what the majority of individuals in the religion believe and practice or are willing to tolerateand "look the other way" on from their fellow believers.

Individuals - the ones who reject the extremism in the faith and the ones who merely tolerate it and look away and the ones who choose to interpret extremely.  
All of them - what they do individually matters because what these individual Muslims believe - they bring with them when they immigrate - the same as every other human being.  Muslims are not exceptional in that regard.

There is no such thing as mainstream Islam.