This week in Islam

[Marocc]

1 minute ago, GostHacked said:

I can't really. Both DoP,  Argus and I can tell you that Saudi Arabia is a huge proponent of Wahhabism style Islam. I understand there can be a lot of fake news online, but their way of things pre-date what we call the modern Internet, meaning that shit is set in stone bro.

Oh. No, there is no such thing as Wahabbism.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Argus said:

What if he goes in and shoots everyone in the bank while screaming God is Great?

If he didn't take any money, that would be different. 

Otherwise I would just assume he was just trying to get sympathy from the Liberals if he was caught.

[dialamah]

15 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Oh. No, there is no such thing as Wahabbism.

Do you know what Westerners mean when they say Wahabbism?  My understanding is that it's a particularly fundamental version of Islam, practiced primarily in Saudi Arabia, that uses brutal punishments to enforce Islam and allows for no dissent.  I don't mind admitting that my understanding is heavily influenced by Western Media, although I have managed to avoid propaganda sites like Religion of Peace.

Edited July 11, 2019 by dialamah

[Marocc]

26 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Do you know what Westerners mean when they say Wahabbism?  My understanding is that it's a particularly fundamental version of Islam, practiced primarily in Saudi Arabia, that uses brutal punishments to enforce Islam and allows for no dissent.  I don't mind admitting that my understanding is heavily influenced by Western Media, although I have managed to avoid propaganda sites like Religion of Peace.

What brutal punishments? Enforce Islam?

yes, I know what they mean in so far as they know what they mean.

[DogOnPorch]

To say that there is 'no such thing as  Wahhabism' with a straight face should tell you all something.

To deny this is to deny the existence of the House of Saud and Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab who created the first Saudi Muslim state... the Emirate of Diriyah.

Saudi Arabia is a fact, folks.

 

[dialamah]

7 minutes ago, Marocc said:

What brutal punishments? Enforce Islam?.

An example:  Raif Badawi, sentenced to six years, increased to ten years and 600 lashes increased to 1000 lashes.  His crime was "insulting Islam" and apostasy.  A brutal punishment for what is, as I understand it, not a crime in Islam. Is my understanding wrong or is  Saudi Arabia not Islamic?

[GostHacked]

50 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Oh. No, there is no such thing as Wahhabi.

Oh I do say you are wrong good sir. We've seen what that's been looking like over the past 20 years now. Saudi Arabia has the USA by the balls as much as the Israelis do.  When it comes to radical Islam and the terror attacks in the USA, we see one source.  Ok, three sources. The USA, CIA (typically operates under a diff umbrella than what we know as the 'USA' an the CIA's funding of the Saudi Arabian government to bring more war to the surrounding nations.

 

as much as I detest using wikipedia as a source.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

Quote

The majority of Sunni and Shia Muslims worldwide disagree with the interpretation of Wahhabism, and many Muslims denounce them as a faction or a "vile sect".^[7]Islamic scholars, including those from the Al-Azhar University, regularly denounce Wahhabism with terms such as "Satanic faith".^[33] Wahhabism has been accused of being "a source of global terrorism",^[34][35] inspiring the ideology of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL),^[36] and for causing disunity in Muslim communities by labelling Muslims who disagreed with the Wahhabi definition of monotheism as apostates^[37] (takfir) and justifying their killing.^[38][39][40] It has also been criticized for the destruction of historic shrines of saints, mausoleums, and other Muslim and non-Muslim buildings and artifacts.^[41][42][43]

It's a shame that historical statues have been demolished on purpose. They were built for a reason. It's a shame we will never be able to interpret their true message. I would hope it would be for peace.

[DogOnPorch]

16 minutes ago, dialamah said:

An example:  Raif Badawi, sentenced to six years, increased to ten years and 600 lashes increased to 1000 lashes.  His crime was "insulting Islam" and apostasy.  A brutal punishment for what is, as I understand it, not a crime in Islam. Is my understanding wrong or is  Saudi Arabia not Islamic?

 

Punishment is laid-out in Sahih Muslim....

https://sunnah.com/muslim/29

http://www.iium.edu.my/deed/hadith/muslim/017_smt.html

...all part of Islam. 

 

 

[Marocc]

35 minutes ago, dialamah said:

An example:  Raif Badawi, sentenced to six years, increased to ten years and 600 lashes increased to 1000 lashes.  His crime was "insulting Islam" and apostasy.  A brutal punishment for what is, as I understand it, not a crime in Islam. Is my understanding wrong or is  Saudi Arabia not Islamic?

That has nothing to do with Wahabbism. Insulting Islam is certainly a crime at certain levels. But he's not an apostate. He was just arrested with that charge as I understand it.

[Marocc]

38 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Oh I do say you are wrong good sir. We've seen what that's been looking like over the past 20 years now. Saudi Arabia has the USA by the balls as much as the Israelis do.  When it comes to radical Islam and the terror attacks in the USA, we see one source.  Ok, three sources. The USA, CIA (typically operates under a diff umbrella than what we know as the 'USA' an the CIA's funding of the Saudi Arabian government to bring more war to the surrounding nations.

 

 

And this ^relates to Wahabbism because...

[scribblet]

2 hours ago, Marocc said:

Can't explain it with your own words means you can't understand it. I already refuted part of this and the added part is more lies.

I'm not gonna spend time refuting thereligionofpeace to deaf ears.

Not up to me to explain the Quran, I just quoted the verse

[Marocc]

3 minutes ago, scribblet said:

Not up to me to explain the Quran, I just quoted the verse

And some more than that.

but it's okay. We'll just leave it there since there appears to be nothing you wish to discuss regarding it.

[GostHacked]

10 hours ago, Marocc said:

And this ^relates to Wahabbism because...

Right on, just another trolling poster.  I'll move on.

[Marocc]

4 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Right on, just another trolling poster.  I'll move on.

Deflection. Why not just answer the question?

better yet, tell me what is wahabbism in your opinion.

[GostHacked]

40 minutes ago, Marocc said:

Deflection. Why not just answer the question?

better yet, tell me what is wahabbism in your opinion.

My opinion does not matter, the Saudis tell us this. Take it up with them.

[Marocc]

7 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

My opinion does not matter, the Saudis tell us this. Take it up with them.

Certainly it matters if you share it with other people as factual. And Saudis? All of them? How?

The Wikipedia article you quoted has two of its first references (within the quote) from a book called Force and Facisism, written apparently by a non-Muslim and a westerner as usual.

Here's some comments regarding the book from Raymond Ibrahim:

""Unfortunately, a large chunk of the book is devoted to separating Islam from Wahhabism, meaning the author never gets to root matters. Anything positive is attributed to Islam and anything negative—misogyny, draconian punishments, execution of apostates, persecution of non-Muslims—to Wahhabism.

"This position stems from the author's own cultural presuppositions. He "felt confused and puzzled" by Wahhabi intolerance and the "attempt to propagate their beliefs by force." In all his conversations with "ulema, imams, Mutawa and Saudis generally, there was never a mention of 'love.'" In fact, Islam's prophet, Muhammad, followed by countless caliphs, did sanction the use of force; and while Islam attributes ninety-nine characteristics to God, love is not one of them.

"Valentine's readers would benefit much more had he simply laid out his useful information concerning the inner workings of the Saudi regime and its unholy alliance with the West, without trying to tackle the deep question of what Islam really is.""

https://www.amazon.com/Force-Fanaticism-Wahhabism-Arabia-Beyond/dp/1849044643

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by Marocc

[GostHacked]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sri-lanka-saudi-insight/wahhabism-confronted-sri-lanka-curbs-saudi-influence-after-bombings-idUSKCN1U00LY

Quote

KATTANKUDY, Sri Lanka (Reuters) - Sri Lanka is moving to curtail Saudi Arabian influence, after some politicians and Buddhist monks blamed the spread of the kingdom’s ultra-conservative Wahhabi school of Islam for planting the seeds of militancy that culminated in deadly Easter bomb attacks.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/03/opinion/saudi-arabia-monarchy-wahhabism.html

Quote

The speed and magnitude of change in Saudi Arabia has accelerated considerably after the consecration of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. To legitimize his ascent, fulfill his absolutist ambitions and face various internal and external challenges, Prince Mohammed has presented and positioned himself as the champion of “modernization.”

Several of the crown prince’s statements and initiatives — calling for a moderate Islam, authorizing women to drive, reopening cinemas — have been interpreted as his desire to break the historic pact between the House of Saud and the Wahhabi religious establishment.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/loc/sa/wahhabi.htm

Quote

The political and cultural environment of contemporary Saudi Arabia has been influenced by a religious movement that began in central Arabia in the mid-eighteenth century. This movement, commonly known as the Wahhabi movement, grew out of the scholarship and preaching of Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab, a scholar of Islamic jurisprudence who had studied in Mesopotamia and the Hijaz before returning to his native Najd to preach his message of Islamic reform.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/analyses/wahhabism.html

Quote

For more than two centuries, Wahhabism has been Saudi Arabia's dominant faith.It is an austere form of Islam that insists on a literal interpretation of the Koran. Strict Wahhabis believe that all those who don't practice their form of Islam are heathens and enemies. Critics say that Wahhabism's rigidity has led it to misinterpret and distort Islam, pointing to extremists such as Osama bin Laden and the Taliban. Wahhabism's explosive growth began in the 1970s when Saudi charities started funding Wahhabi schools (madrassas) and mosques from Islamabad to Culver City, California. Here are excerpts from FRONTLINE's interviews with Mai Yamani, an anthropologist who studies Saudi society; Vali Nasr, an authority on Islamic fundamentalism; Maher Hathout, spokesperson for the Islamic Center of Southern California; and Ahmed Ali, a Shi'a Muslim from Saudi Arabia. (Also see the Links and Readings section of this site for more analyses of Wahhabism and Saudi Arabia.)

I can get more if you want if this is not going to satisfy you.

[dialamah]

14 hours ago, Marocc said:

Oh. No, there is no such thing as Wahabbism.

 

12 hours ago, Marocc said:

That has nothing to do with Wahabbism.

I'd say these two statements contradict each other.  But it's becoming pretty clear you do not want to discuss Wahabbism and will deflect any questions.

Quote

Insulting Islam is certainly a crime at certain levels.

At what level does it become a crime?

[Marocc]

1 hour ago, GostHacked said:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sri-lanka-saudi-insight/wahhabism-confronted-sri-lanka-curbs-saudi-influence-after-bombings-idUSKCN1U00LY

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/03/opinion/saudi-arabia-monarchy-wahhabism.html

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/loc/sa/wahhabi.htm

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/analyses/wahhabism.html

I can get more if you want if this is not going to satisfy you.

You still didn't answer my questions. You just quote more western propaganda.

My purpose on breaking a piece off the Wikipedia article was to direct your attention to that 1)the article is written by someone who strongly dislikes these "wahabbis" whatever they are, 2)the article includes information from ignorant Westerners 3)the particular bit of information is refuted by a Muslim in a fashion well expected; the writer knows neither what is Islam nor what is wahabbism.

The question isn't whether there is a word "wahabbism" used or not. Undoubtedly there is. But what does it mean, do you know? Does anybody know?

The answer is "no", because there is no particular definition to wahabbism because there is no such this as Wahabbism.

But I still invite you define it.

[Marocc]

14 hours ago, dialamah said:

Is my understanding wrong or is  Saudi Arabia not Islamic?

 

 

33 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 

I'd say these two statements contradict each other.  But it's becoming pretty clear you do not want to discuss Wahabbism and will deflect any questions.

At what level does it become a crime?

    13 hours ago, dialamah said:

    Is my understanding wrong or is  Saudi Arabia not Islamic?

[Click and drag to move]

This is the only question I haven't answered completely I think. It doesn't relate to wahabbism and is difficult for me to answer. We would have to have a common understanding of what happened in the particular case in reality, what were the reasons for the punishment - exactly, and what is the definition of Islamic. But mostly I'm bothered by your apparent insinuation that either way it would make Saudi Arabia unislamic.

    13 minutes ago, dialamah said:

    I'd say these two statements contradict each other.  But it's becoming pretty clear you do not want to discuss Wahabbism and will deflect any questions.

    At what level does it become a crime?

I'm already discussing it and haven't failed to answer any other question except the bit above - unless I'm mistaken.

Wahabbism is claimed to be a sect of Islam. I don't recognize it as that, but I recognize the origins of the claims. So while I deny that there is a sect called Wahabbism, I don't deny, obviously, that there are claims regarding it.

In order to discuss it with you since you apparently think of it as a political thing (it is btw, the term is absolutely political - as an accusation) I have to lean onto the factual thing that is claimed to be Wahabbism and how it differs from the lies attached to the term Wahabbism.

Decided by a judge.

 

[GostHacked]

1 hour ago, Marocc said:

You still didn't answer my questions. You just quote more western propaganda.

Missed the part where Indonesia complained about it. 'Western propaganda'

1 hour ago, Marocc said:

 

The answer is "no", because there is no particular definition to wahabbism because there is no such this as Wahabbism.

 

 

Yep, I am moving on. Have fun.

[Marocc]

20 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Missed the part where Indonesia complained about it. 'Western propaganda'

Yep, I am moving on. Have fun.

If it's written by a western it's western, as well as if it's influenced mostly by the west etc.

 

 

[Goddess]

11 minutes ago, Marocc said:

If it's written by a western it's western, as well as if it's influenced mostly by the west etc.

Conversely, if it's written by Islamics, it's Islamic, as well as influenced mostly by Islam, etc.  We all have our perspectives.

Even though you have been sort of weasel-wording around about the "death to apostates" thing, it's clear that you DO agree with it.

From your interpretation of Islam - WHO is authorized to perform the killings?  If it comes from a fatwa - as in cases like Hirsi Ali, Salman Rushdie, Theo Van Gogh, etc - it appears that any Muslim who wants to can perform the killing in any country, and with no regard to the country's own laws.

Would this be correct?

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by Goddess

[jacee]

On 7/10/2019 at 2:28 PM, dialamah said:

Really, that's just people.  And only some people.  They use religion to provide themselves with power and cover, and so they can think of their victims as not deserving of respect or kindness.

I call horsesh!t on that. It's systemic Christian supremacy that dehumanizes those 'lesser than' them. It covers up for and sustains the evil deeds of those "people", because revealing that behaviour publicly would reflect on their religion. 

 

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, Marocc said:

The answer is "no", because there is no particular definition to wahabbism because there is no such this as Wahabbism.

But I still invite you define it.

This is an example of weaseling as pointed out by JC.

You seem to simultaneously declare your perspective as the correct one, yet call on others to provide their definition so you can pick it apart.

I don't care that you are fundamentalist, but why bother to try to discuss your faith if it's immutable AND defined by you?

Furthermore you have joined a culture that values change and reform, so your strain of faith faces constant erosion, especially from within.