This week in Islam

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

Thought you were gonna stop responding to me.  And there you go again, proving out MH's words:    "Demand they reform their religion, but deny any efforts to do so"

Knock it off, you surely cannot be this stupid.

I didn't deny any effort to reform.  I pointed out that they just had a 4 day conference on something YOU claim barely exists in Islam and insist that no one in the world should be concerned about.

[Marocc]

19 minutes ago, Goddess said:

You cannot be serious about this.

It's these kinds of statements that have gotten Dia in trouble here - complete denial that women are killed in Islam

 

I was talking about apostacy.

Giving examples is always an issue to those who constantly lie and exaggerate.

 

[dialamah]

18 minutes ago, Goddess said:

You guys should get together and coordinate your lies first.

What lie?  That there was a conference or that it addressed issues of violence and intolerance within Muslim communities and between Muslim and non-Muslim?

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

What lie?  That there was a conference or that it addressed issues of violence and intolerance within Muslim communities and between Muslim and non-Muslim?

Wow, try to follow.  Perhaps if you take off your hate-goggles you can think more clearly.

YOU claimed the 4 day conference "focused" on terrorism, intolerance and bigotry in Islam

When I said, "Weird that they would have a conference on something you claim barely exists"

To which THE OTHER APOLOGIST said, it was only about an hour they focused on that.

Make up your minds.  You demand absolute precision, articulateness and explicitness from everyone else in their comments.  Practice what you screech.

[dialamah]

33 minutes ago, Goddess said:

It's these kinds of statements that have gotten Dia in trouble here - complete denial that women are killed in Islam.

I have never denied that women are killed in Muslim communities and have even said that the patriarchy inherent in Islam is a problem when it comes to the treatment of women in these places, just as it among many Christian, Hindu, Sikh and other religions.  

I have objected to your sweeping generalizations about Muslims when someone in a Western country behaves poorly.  I guess rather than admit the truth of what I say, you have to lie about it so you can continue in your self-righteousness demonizing.  

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

so you can continue in your self-righteousness demonizing.  

Go cry to Charles.  Again.

[dialamah]

5 minutes ago, Goddess said:

When I said, "Weird that they would have a conference on something you claim barely exists"

Oh I see.  More lying about what I have posted.  Gotcha.

7 minutes ago, Goddess said:

To which THE OTHER APOLOGIST said, it was only about an hour they focused on that.

I believe that was sarcasm. 

I like the new label you've decided to use, in place of outright insults.  I shall follow suit with Isamaphobia Apologist.

[dialamah]

19 minutes ago, Goddess said:

didn't deny any effort to reform.

So you regularly screech at me about how Islam needs to reform and address their issues and how I pretend it doesn't (not true as usual), but when I post something about a large group of Muslims getting together to address those very issues, you use that to attack me and other posters as "Apologists" and liars.  You could have posted more productively but you'd rather just call other posters names, even when they post something you say you support.  

When does your "stop responding to me" promise kick in?

[Goddess]

6 minutes ago, dialamah said:

 

When does your "stop responding to me" promise kick in?

i said I wasn't going to respond to your insults and name-calling.  Twist and warp whatever I say - that's your apologist MO.  Pretty sad that the only way you can defend the religion is by twisting what is said about it.

I'm pretty sure you know how utterly ridiculous you're getting, but you've already dug the hole so deep you pretty much have to stay there now just to save face.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Goddess

[Charles Anthony]

Ladies and gentlemen,

Please avoid making the discussions personal.  Play the ball and not the player.  

[dialamah]

1 minute ago, Charles Anthony said:

Ladies and gentlemen,

Please avoid making the discussions personal.  Play the ball and not the player.  

Fair enough.  I shall desist. 

[Marocc]

27 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Wow, try to follow.  Perhaps if you take off your hate-goggles you can think more clearly.

YOU claimed the 4 day conference "focused" on terrorism, intolerance and bigotry in Islam

See you cut the sentence ^again. That's where the "issue" is.

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

The thread is about Islam. Feel free to contribute things both positive and negative. Never mind the outraged buttercups.

As I pointed out, highlighting individual misdeeds as attributable to the group is only encouraged for Muslims.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

1. Because nobody is denying that certain things happen in other groups.  It's only Islam that you and your fellow apologists  completely deny what's going on, demand examples, then go frothing at the mouth rabid with cries of "Islamophobe!!!"  "Racist!!!!"  when the examples are provided to you.

2. Maybe stop denying and demanding examples, if you don't want examples. 

3. And don't tell me you apologists don't deny, because there's an example right above - this apologist claims women are not killed and you and Dia are content to swallow that line of BS with an empty-eyed grin and then say, "Mmmmmmm,,,,, this shyte tastes great!"

1. Lies.  I and others have repeatedly affirmed that Islamic extremist terrorism exists.  Now show me the other threads where the topic is misdeeds by Jews, blacks etc.  You completely ignored my point there.

2. Don't demand examples?  You realize how weak this makes your logic sound?  The entire forum is based on defending your point and you want an exemption so you can tar all Muslims, even moderates.  If you agree to criticize Muslim authority only, you will find it easier to get examples.

3. This poster seems to have only shown up recently.  I don't read his posts enough to comment.  My criticism of the thread is the scapegoating of all Muslims.  That has been the point since the first page.  The excuses you mention aren't.

 

[dialamah]

 

54 minutes ago, Marocc said:

I was talking about apostacy.

I would like to learn Islam's teachings on apostasy, if you are so inclined.  I know that Quran says that apostates can repent, which seems counter to killing them because dead people cannot repent.  But I am curious about the nuances and what support, if any, there is for apostate death sentenced where they exist.  

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

And don't tell me you apologists don't deny, because there's an example right above - this apologist claims women are not killed and you and Dia are content to swallow that line of BS with an empty-eyed grin and then say, "Mmmmmmm,,,,, this shyte tastes great!"

In context, the conversation was: 

DoP references something referring to Muslims killing people.

Marocc replies, specific to that post and that cite: Did you ever wonder why women aren't killed.

Nobody said women are never killed by Muslims or in Islam.  Nobody has ever claimed that.

[Marocc]

52 minutes ago, Goddess said:

i said I wasn't going to respond to your insults and name-calling.  Twist and warp whatever I say - that's your apologist MO.  Pretty sad that the only way you can defend the religion is by twisting what is said about it.

It's difficult to debate with a person who keeps pointing at an apple and screaming it isn't an apple.

[Argus]

18 hours ago, dialamah said:

I don't think there is a better response than this one, from MH:

MH, like you is as devoted an Islamophile as you will find among progressives. Both of you are more than willing to sacrifice the basic human rights of Canadians in order to protect Muslims from being offended.

18 hours ago, dialamah said:

The example I gave of 70 clerics who issued fatwas against terrorism i

Among what, 700,000 Islamic clerics? And how many of those clerics you quote would issue a fatwa against killing blasphemers?

18 hours ago, dialamah said:

Many of those states operate near identically to non-Muslim States.  If it's all Islam, how do you explain the "other" states who imprison, torture and murder their own subjects and treat women like second class citizens.

Are there other states which, by law, treat men and women differently in court cases, in inheritance, in family rights, in criminal law? Do they also treat all people who are not the same religion as the majority as second class citizens? Do they criminalize those who blaspheme or commit adultery or try to leave their religion? And remember, it is not SOME Muslim states. It is every single one of them.

[Argus]

17 hours ago, dialamah said:

How do we win this battle? From the Muslim world, it starts with commitments the likes of which we have never formally adopted or connected to tolerance.

In a place where non-Muslims are banned, in a country where any expression of any religion other than Islam is banned. And the Charter didn't say anything about that, now did it. Nor will it, because:

The Muslim World League (MWL; Arabic: رابطة العالم الاسلامي‎, Rabitat al-Alam al-Islami, Arabic pronunciation: [ra:bitˤat al ʕa:lami al isla:mij]) is Pan-Islamic^{[dubious – discuss][1]}NGO based in Makkah, Saudi Arabia that propagates Islamic teachings.^[2][3] The NGO was funded by the Saudi government from its inception in 1962,^[4] with that contribution growing to approximately $13 million by 1980.^[2] Because of the Saudi funding, the League is widely regarded as promoting Wahhabism.^[2]The Oxford Dictionary of Islam says that "the group has acted as a mouthpiece for the Saudi Arabian government, which finances it."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_World_League

Quote

Our charter demands that we safeguard natural resources and manage industrial development; support climate treaties, fight hunger and poverty; eliminate disease and discrimination, and preserve the human rights of all people, including women and minorities. It includes a special obligation to empower women through social equality and economic opportunity, and to reject any effort that is disrespectful or marginalizing toward women.

Sounds good until you realize that the Muslim world has always denied that women are already treated respectfully and equally. There are women in prison in Saudi Arabia for campaigning to let women be allowed to drive. Even after women were allowed to drive.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Argus

[GostHacked]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

The point is a targeted group.   No other group has it's very own topic dedicated to tracking the crimes committed by individuals from that group, yet any group has badly-behaved members.  There's no "This Week in Leftism", or "This Week in Trumpland", even though some people  believe that those groups are a scourge on civilization.

Overall I think Mike's point has been received by most of the people participating in this thread.

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

If you agree to criticize Muslim authority only, you will find it easier to get examples.

To an extent I agree with you.  Except that there really is no Islamic authority.  There is no one (as in the number 1, for clarity) authority telling Muslims Yes, kill apostates or No, don't kill them.  There is no one authority telling Muslims Yes, beat your wife into submission, or No, don't beat them at all.  There is no one authority telling Muslims Yes, all women must be in burkas, or No, women do not have to be in burkas.  Individual Muslims are free to make these choices for themselves, and there are no consequences within the religion for choosing the worst interpretations possible.

So, to avoid criticizing Individual Muslims, we go by what is practiced mainstream.

I have never denied that individual Muslims can and do choose more tolerant interpretations of Islam.  But those individual Muslims do not represent the majority, nor do they represent what is taught in the mainstream.  Arguments here are frequently because some are arguing whether an Islamic teaching is mainstream in the group as a whole or whether it's just mainstream in certain countries.  Some like to go back and forth between whether a teaching is accepted in just one country or whether it's accepted in other countries - it depends which one supports their particular argument at the time.

For instance:  JW's believe in shunning.  That is the official doctrine.  I know for a fact that some INDIVIDUAL j-dubs will secretly associate with relatives who are supposed to be shunned.  But if I were to argue that JW's dont' believe in shunning because a minority rebel against the doctrine or if I said that most of them ignore the doctrine - I would be being deceitful.  It is a mainstream teaching in the JW religion. And whether individual JW's follow it or not, or believe it or not - is irrelevant.  To argue that other religions shun or that it started 2000 years ago amongst sheep herders in Mesopotamia - also irrelevant.

Islam seems to want to skate by on the "We don't have an official doctrine on that so you can't call us on it."

So when some argue that what mainstream Islam teaches is best illustrated by what the majority Muslim countries do......there is logic to that, whether you care to admit it or not.

And what mainstream Islam practices is reflected in what the majority of individuals in the religion believe and practice or are willing to tolerateand "look the other way" on from their fellow believers.

Individuals - the ones who reject the extremism in the faith and the ones who merely tolerate it and look away and the ones who choose to interpret extremely.  
All of them - what they do individually matters because what these individual Muslims believe - they bring with them when they immigrate - the same as every other human being.  Muslims are not exceptional in that regard.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Goddess

[Argus]

5 hours ago, Marocc said:

Let's see where could the burning have occurred to Ali as it certainly isn't permitted in Islam. In fact it is prohibited in several hadiths. But take a look at the old testament.

Leviticus 21:9 "Also the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by harlotry, she profanes her father; she shall be burned with fire."

Genesis 38:24 "Now it was about three months later that Judah was informed, "Your daughter-in-law Tamar has played the harlot, and behold, she is also with child by harlotry." Then Judah said, "Bring her out and let her be burned!""

There's a lot of nasty stuff in the Old Testament, but the difference is that the Christian reformations sloughed that stuff off. No mainstream Christian church today supports these things.

On the other hand, all mainstream Islamic clerics support death for blasphemers, criminal sanctions or death for gays, different family and criminal rights for women, and demand the subjugation of minority religions.

[Marocc]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

There are women in prison in Saudi Arabia for campaigning to let women be allowed to drive. Even after women were allowed to drive.

They were put there within weeks from when the restriction was lifted (some of them got free soon) and because women get to drive, according to the law, technically. Sometimes.

I read a report about an Iranian prison for political female prisoners where the women are at times made physically to ascertain that another female prisoner has not hidden anything in her.........

and that was from year 2016.

In Afghanistan prisons women almost always get raped according to some statistics - if not all.

[Argus]

4 hours ago, bcsapper said:

I agree 100%.  If a Muslim robs a bank, I don't care any more than if a Christian or an atheist does.

What if he goes in and shoots everyone in the bank while screaming God is Great?

[Argus]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

The point is a targeted group.   No other group has it's very own topic dedicated to tracking the crimes committed by individuals from that group, yet any group has badly-behaved members.  There's no "This Week in Leftism", or "This Week in Trumpland", even though some people  believe that those groups are a scourge on civilization.

No other group commits so much religious violence. No other group has such bigoted religious beliefs and values. And no other group is flooding into Canada at the rate of a hundred thousand a year.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Argus