This week in Islam

[Marocc]

2 minutes ago, Goddess said:

What good is forgiveness when your hands have been chopped off or your wife was shot in the head for having a strand of hair come loose from her hijab?

The same as at any other time.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Marocc said:

Where do you make the distinctive line between religious violence and violence that happens to be done by a Muslim?

In my city, almost all the street killings involve Muslims, because most of the street gangs are Muslims, mainly from North Africa but also Iran and Lebanon. I don't consider that religious violence.

I consider it religious mainly if they say its religious (Islamic terrorism). I think of it as cultural/religious when large numbers seem to act identically, as in those Pakistani Muslim rape groups in the UK who target only non-Muslim girls.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Marocc said:

There's no such thing as Wahabbism.

Perhaps you should tell the Saudis this.

[Marocc]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

Perhaps you should tell the Saudis this.

No it's you.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Marocc said:

Not all clerics are qualified to issue fatwas. And such a fatwa as you propose would be entirely unislamic.

Different doesn't have to be worse.

No, but Islam IS worse than Christianity and Judaism in that violence, even extreme violence, is still considered proper to punish those who sin against it

[Marocc]

Just now, Argus said:

No, but Islam IS worse than Christianity and Judaism in that violence, even extreme violence, is still considered proper to punish those who sin against it

What do you mean?

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Marocc said:

It would be a mistake to assume that just because someone says God is great while they do something means they have religious reasons.

It would be a reasonable conclusion.

[Marocc]

Just now, Argus said:

It would be a reasonable conclusion.

No,.... It wouldn't.

[Argus]

15 minutes ago, Marocc said:

There is no such thing as mainstream Islam.

You are being pedantic. Everyone knows what is meant by 'mainstream Islam'. It means rules and teachings of Islam followed by the vast bulk of Muslims.

Ie, not an interpretation made by 'extremists'.

[Argus]

3 minutes ago, Marocc said:

What do you mean?

All three major religions have within their doctrine justification for extreme violence against sinners. The Christians and Jews have forsworn those punishments as either improper or simply said that interpreting them to justify any sort of violence is improper. Islam has not done so. Islamic doctrine is still interpreted as supporting death and disfigurement for a variety of sins because it comes from the Qran and the Qran is considered to be the literal word of God which can never be denied or changed.

[Marocc]

5 minutes ago, Argus said:

You are being pedantic. Everyone knows what is meant by 'mainstream Islam'. It means rules and teachings of Islam followed by the vast bulk of Muslims.

Ie, not an interpretation made by 'extremists'.

You may mean what you like but there is no such thing. It's like what you non-Muslims say "Liberal Muslim", "moderate muslim", "moderate Islam". Silly words with no meaning.

You are free to use them, but don't expect your speculations on false premises to lead into correct conclusions. Clearly they haven't so far.

[Marocc]

6 minutes ago, Argus said:

All three major religions have within their doctrine justification for extreme violence against sinners. The Christians and Jews have forsworn those punishments as either improper or simply said that interpreting them to justify any sort of violence is improper. Islam has not done so. Islamic doctrine is still interpreted as supporting death and disfigurement for a variety of sins because it comes from the Qran and the Qran is considered to be the literal word of God which can never be denied or changed.

But you see, Muslims still practice their religion. What you have against that which you call violence is nothing but a sentiment.

[Argus]

1 minute ago, Marocc said:

But you see, Muslims still practice their religion. What you have against that which you call violence is nothing but a sentiment.

No, what I have against it is judgement - for in the modern age the idea of killing someone for committing adultery, among other things is barbaric.

And I also have self-interest. According to some more than half of your religious texts concern how Muslims should treat non-Muslims. And little of that is kindly.

[Marocc]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

No, what I have against it is judgement - for in the modern age the idea of killing someone for committing adultery, among other things is barbaric.

And I also have self-interest. According to some more than half of your religious texts concern how Muslims should treat non-Muslims. And little of that is kindly.

There is no modern age for a true religion. You either follow the religion or you don't.

With religion comes faith. I believe in Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) and that what he has commanded is good and right.

Are you planning on attacking the Muslim ummah? If not, you don't need to mind the verses, they have assured nothing but peace toward you.

[Goddess]

2 minutes ago, Marocc said:

With religion comes faith. I believe in Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) and that what he has commanded is good and right.

So are you one of the ones who would actually kill an apostate or blasphemer as commanded, or are you one of the ones who would not do the actual killing but would be happy if someone else did it?  Would you film it on your phone for later viewing?

I ask because of your reaction to Hirsi Ali's name being mentioned.

[DogOnPorch]

6 minutes ago, Marocc said:

There is no modern age for a true religion. You either follow the religion or you don't.

With religion comes faith. I believe in Allah (Subhaanahu wa ta'ala) and that what he has commanded is good and right.

Are you planning on attacking the Muslim ummah? If not, you don't need to mind the verses, they have assured nothing but peace toward you.

 

Allah has already ordained for you [Muslims] the dissolution of your oaths. And Allah is your protector, and He is the Knowing, the Wise.

https://quran.com/66/2

In modern English: Allah says it's okay to lie to the Unbeliever to further Islam.

[Marocc]

9 minutes ago, Goddess said:

So are you one of the ones who would actually kill an apostate or blasphemer as commanded, or are you one of the ones who would not do the actual killing but would be happy if someone else did it?  Would you film it on your phone for later viewing?

I ask because of your reaction to Hirsi Ali's name being mentioned.

As commanded?

What was my reaction?

6 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Allah has already ordained for you [Muslims] the dissolution of your oaths. And Allah is your protector, and He is the Knowing, the Wise.

https://quran.com/66/2

In modern English: Allah says it's okay to lie to the Unbeliever to further Islam.

You know what an oath is?

[DogOnPorch]

3 minutes ago, Marocc said:

 

You know what an oath is?

 

Lemme guess...know-it-all Muslim is going to set me straight on Islam.

I don't need you to understand Islam...thanks.

[GostHacked]

2 hours ago, Marocc said:

No it's you.

Negative. Argus is 100% correct on that. 

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

I don't need you to understand Islam...thanks.

The invention of Christian-Splaining.  Before our very eyes.

[GostHacked]

5 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Lemme guess...know-it-all Muslim is going to set me straight on Islam.

I don't need you to understand Islam...thanks.

Le me guess, you are gonna set us all straight on what Islam really is about?  Is this a 2 year concentrated or a 4-5 year deep intensive course you are teaching? Just wanna know how much it's gonna cost me to get educated.

[dialamah]

7 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Lemme guess...know-it-all Muslim is going to set me straight on Islam.

I don't need you to understand Islam...thanks.

Imagine that, a Muslim knowing more about Islam than you do.  

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

The invention of Christian-Splaining.  Before our very eyes.

 

Not a Christian. 

Just now, GostHacked said:

Le me guess, you are gonna set us all straight on what Islam really is about?  Is this a 2 year concentrated or a 4-5 year deep intensive course you are teaching? Just wanna know how much it's gonna cost me to get educated.

 

Islam is a personal relationship between the Believer and Allah...no "helpers" are needed to interpret the Quran. Least of all you.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, dialamah said:

Imagine that, a Muslim knowing more about Islam than you do.  

 

Argument from authority. A logical fallacy.

[Marocc]

5 hours ago, dialamah said:

 

I would like to learn Islam's teachings on apostasy, if you are so inclined.  I know that Quran says that apostates can repent, which seems counter to killing them because dead people cannot repent.  But I am curious about the nuances and what support, if any, there is for apostate death sentenced where they exist.  

When you say 'Islam's teachings on apostasy' in plural, it sounds like you ought to start reading books, but the short story from the majority of today's scholars, is as follows:

The Qur'an prescribes no earthly punishment for apostasy alone. The hadiths mention it and at times directly; 'if anyone changes their religion then kill him.' But seeing as this is controversial to the Qur'an it cannot be right.

At the time of revelation the Muslims were living in a different kind of society in which apostasy could at times be considered high treason for which there was and is a death penalty if the judge says so. But not all apostates were killed at the time. Sometimes they were gives lesser punishments and at times pardoned altogether. And women were never killed because they don't take part in fighting to begin with - they were not considered a threat to the community. However, they could be imprisoned instead.