Iran War

[herbie]

And if you guys won't help.,I;m gonna take my NATO and go home!
BBBAAAWWW!!!!

[bush_cheney2004]

9 hours ago, Hodad said:

What you're arguing here is that there is no difference between a cop, a vigilante, and a street thug because force is force. That it doesn't matter how our why someone employs violence, because violence is violence, all the same, unmoored from ethical and legal frameworks.

 

Yes...the very essence of "war".   There is no material difference with the destruction, no matter how "justified" be the cause.   Are you OK with America firebombing and nuking Japanese cities at the end of WW2, when Japan was clearly defeated ?  How about Dresden ?   All ethical, right, because the winning side gets to write history.

[Hodad]

26 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Yes...the very essence of "war".   There is no material difference with the destruction, no matter how "justified" be the cause.   Are you OK with America firebombing and nuking Japanese cities at the end of WW2, when Japan was clearly defeated ?  How about Dresden ?   All ethical, right, because the winning side gets to write history.

Like I said, an odd sort of nihlism. Not sure why anyone would want to live in a world without right and wrong, justice and injustice. Not sure I see the point, just another animal in the food chain. 

[Nationalist]

20 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Like I said, an odd sort of nihlism. Not sure why anyone would want to live in a world without right and wrong, justice and injustice. Not sure I see the point, just another animal in the food chain. 

Right and wrong...justice and injustice...according to whom? You?

22 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Not sure I see the point, just another animal in the food chain. 

If there's no point to your existence, we can fix that in Canastan.

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

And if you guys won't help.,I;m gonna take my NATO and go home!
BBBAAAWWW!!!!

Psst...who funds and essentially is the NATO military again?

The US should leave NATO. Let Europe find out what it is to protect themselves.

[bush_cheney2004]

31 minutes ago, Hodad said:

Like I said, an odd sort of nihlism. Not sure why anyone would want to live in a world without right and wrong, justice and injustice. Not sure I see the point, just another animal in the food chain. 

 

This conflates two very different things..."justified war" is an oxymoron.   My WW2 bombings questions were not rhetorical...because the moral framework crumbles...and that's OK.

"War is the continuation of politics by other means" - Carl von Clausewitz (1780-1831) 

[herbie]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

The US should leave NATO. Let Europe find out what it is to protect themselves.

Oh yes, Mr Tough Guy can look after himself.
What a bootlicker MAGA attitude. Hide heir head in the sand and demand they all follow their rules.....

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, herbie said:

Oh yes, Mr Tough Guy can look after himself.
What a bootlicker MAGA attitude. Hide heir head in the sand and demand they all follow their rules.....

?????????

That made no sense at all. Did you forget what we were talking about and just about whatever popped into your head?

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Psst...who funds and essentially is the NATO military again?

The US should leave NATO. Let Europe find out what it is to protect themselves.

 

This point has not been lost on many presidents...the U.S. spending is about 65% of NATO's total.   France (Charles de Gaulle) left NATO command structure in 1966 and expelled all U.S. military.   France would return in 2009.

Quote

According to Dean Rusk's memoirs, he was instructed by President Lyndon B. Johnson to ask de Gaulle: "Does your order include the bodies of American soldiers in France's cemeteries?".

 

Edited April 1 by bush_cheney2004

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

This conflates two very different things..."justified war" is an oxymoron.   My WW2 bombings questions were not rhetorical...because the moral framework crumbles...and that's OK.

"War is the continuation of politics by other means" - Carl von Clausewitz (1780-1831) 

I wonder what Carl von Clausewitz would have to say to people who attach a gargantuan moral framework to the war between Israel and Hamas?

It just is what it is?

[Nationalist]

42 minutes ago, herbie said:

Oh yes, Mr Tough Guy can look after himself.
What a bootlicker MAGA attitude. Hide heir head in the sand and demand they all follow their rules.....

You seem worried. Like you dont think you can defend your own nation. The "Alies" have been derelict while the US protects Europe...and Canada for what its worth.

Sounds like the prospect of no "Big Brother" makes you upset.

Poor pansie...

[herbie]

The dumb post about America should leave NATO on a previous page didn't get quoted. 
Work interrupting my posting, sorry. Missed that.

[LinkSoul60]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

The "Alies" have been derelict while the US protects Europe...and Canada for what its worth.

The US protects us by being a deterrent, not with military dollars spent guarding over us daily.  That's appreciated and obviously taken for granted over the past couple decades that is shown in our, and the majority of NATO countries military spending.  One good thing, and maybe the only good thing about Trump is that he's given us and others a much needed wake-up call.

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, Hodad said:

  Not sure why anyone would want to live in a world without right and wrong, justice and injustice.  

You could also ask why at the same person would volunteer for service for their country. 

This is what I can't get my head around. 

But I have come to accept that Canadians can't understand Americans.

 

[eyeball]

12 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

But I have come to accept that Canadians can't understand Americans.

That's not our fault - Americans themselves can't even seem to figure it out.

[bush_cheney2004]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

I wonder what Carl von Clausewitz would have to say to people who attach a gargantuan moral framework to the war between Israel and Hamas?

It just is what it is?

 

Pretty much...with the practical distinction of means vs. will.   The Israelis have far more military means now (i.e. "Never Again"), as does the United States.   Been that way for a long time now, but for some reason Trump is the only bad guy president in collective memory ?

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Pretty much...with the practical distinction of means vs. will.   The Israelis have far more military means now (i.e. "Never Again"), as does the United States.   Been that way for a long time now, but for some reason Trump is the only bad guy president in collective memory ?

No, but probably the stupidest. Dubya certainly isn't looking so bad in hindsight.

[bush_cheney2004]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

No, but probably the stupidest. Dubya certainly isn't looking so bad in hindsight.

 

See, that's the thing.   The very same pearl clutchers that claimed Bush and Cheney were the devil incarnate and would destroy America unlike all others before have seemingly lost this perspective because of Trump, who has done nothing on the scale of 9/11, Iraq, or Afghanistan. 

They just pinball off of their current feelings and performative soothing amongst like minded scared folk, waiting for the next crisis to be so afraid of.   Feelings over facts.

[Hodad]

10 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Yes...the very essence of "war".   There is no material difference with the destruction, no matter how "justified" be the cause.   Are you OK with America firebombing and nuking Japanese cities at the end of WW2, when Japan was clearly defeated ?  How about Dresden ?   All ethical, right, because the winning side gets to write history.

Let's see how far you'll go with this. 

A rapist beating a woman into submission to achieve his aims is no different that a rescuer who beats the rapist to save the victim?

Force is force? Same same? Might makes right? No action more or less just?

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Hodad said:

Force is force? Same same? Might makes right? No action more or less just?

 

Might does not make right...it just makes.

[Venandi]

3 hours ago, Hodad said:

A rapist beating a woman into submission to achieve his aims is no different that a rescuer who beats the rapist to save the victim?

I get that you're trying to make a point here but it's worth noting that the comparison is morally and legally false on its face and because of that, it has broader applications to the topic at hand.

Using force to limit or prevent ongoing harm to a victim (or intended victim) isn't the moral or legal equivalent of using force to inflict harm. Unless you intend to argue in favour of rape, the concept of necessity and proportionality (reasonableness) applies.

After having watched that abhorrent NDP debacle though I'm not surprised that reasonableness has become a foreign concept to some. It's like I can't un-see it now. 

Never the less, rape remains a criminal offence (you'd have to argue that it shouldn't be) and the use of force in your own defence (or on behalf of another) is lawful as long as it meets the legal standard of reasonableness. 

In short, the two acts are distinct... defending someone against rape is morally and legally justifiable while the criminal act of rape never is. In a round about way, the same concept applies to Iran's previous actions, stated intentions, and their deliberate efforts in support of both. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 2 by Venandi

[Hodad]

4 hours ago, Venandi said:

I get that you're trying to make a point here but it's worth noting that the comparison is morally and legally false on its face and because of that, it has broader applications to the topic at hand.

Using force to limit or prevent ongoing harm to a victim (or intended victim) isn't the moral or legal equivalent of using force to inflict harm. Unless you intend to argue in favour of rape, the concept of necessity and proportionality (reasonableness) applies.

After having watched that abhorrent NDP debacle though I'm not surprised that reasonableness has become a foreign concept to some. It's like I can't un-see it now. 

Never the less, rape remains a criminal offence (you'd have to argue that it shouldn't be) and the use of force in your own defence (or on behalf of another) is lawful as long as it meets the legal standard of reasonableness. 

In short, the two acts are distinct... defending someone against rape is morally and legally justifiable while the criminal act of rape never is. In a round about way, the same concept applies to Iran's previous actions, stated intentions, and their deliberate efforts in support of both. 

 

 

 

 

Spoken like someone who believes in moral and ethical frameworks?

 

Not meant to be an analogy to Iran specifically. Just seeing how far down a  philosophically untenable path someone will travel in order to hand-wave this thing. Pretty far apparently! To the point that there is no right or wrong and nothing matters. Why not right to solipsism? 🤷‍♀️

Edited April 2 by Hodad

[gatomontes99]

https://x.com/WhiteHouse/status/2039077626489303096?s=20https://x.com/WhiteHouse/status/2039077626489303096?s=20

 

[Gaétan]

The purpose of Trump’s optimistic statements about the war in Iran is to enrich himself and his sons on the stock markets

[eyeball]

9 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

See, that's the thing.   The very same pearl clutchers that claimed Bush and Cheney were the devil incarnate and would destroy America unlike all others before have seemingly lost this perspective because of Trump, who has done nothing on the scale of 9/11, Iraq, or Afghanistan.

Trump is a symptom - Bush and Cheney were just stepping stones along a path towards inevitability America has always been on. You've said yourself repeatedly Trump is just another president giving America what it's always voted for.