Truth and Reconciliation

[Five of swords]

6 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Nothing is racist about your comment of Justin....(although he does rule Canada...as we have seen in the past 13 or so years LOL)

it is everything else you blurt out LOL

 

Well I don't care one bit what is racist. I personally prefer to focus on what is true.

Edited October 6 by Five of swords

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Pfft that is hilarious coming from you.

Oh dear. Triggered lefty is triggered  

Kid the fact that you are wrong or that you don't like that I tell you the truth does not make me a bullshiter. It just makes you wrong and truth adverse

And you use the word wrong whether you like it or not. Don't hate me just because you're wrong

 

 

Quote

Its ridiclous of you to try to compare them amd tell someone that their genocide is irrelevant because some other completely unrelated group from a completely different part of the world and point in history died in larger numbers.

I have never said to anyone at any time anywhere that any genocide is irrelevant. 

So as usual we know that you are aware that you are in the wrong here because you feel the need to lie about what I said.

What I said was the truth. It is an objective fact that when genocide may be worse than another. That doesn't make them irrelevant or good, but it means that one is worse than another

And you know you can't argue with that. So instead you lie about what I said and claim that I said genocides were irrelevant  

I told you this a million times kid. If you feel you have to lie to make your point then you don't have a very good point

 

Imagine if someone massacred your family and then told you you had no right to be upset about it because families larger than yours had also been massacred. You are not magically un-traumatized just because someone tells you that some other group’s trauma happened to more people. 
 

Quote

Also note that with the Jewish people, western governments spent significant amounts of their own treasure to help the Jewish people build THEIR OWN COUNTRY IN THEIR ANCIENT ANCESTRAL HOMELAND. Wheras with indigenous people it’s tue exact OPPOSITE, the goal of North American governments being being to DEPRIVE indigenous people of having their own territory in their ancestral homeland and in many/most  cases to relocate them from their ancestral lands entirely. 

Nope. If anything the Canadian government spent Hundreds of billions of dollars over the years taking care of the first nations most of which came at their request. Most of the land has been covered by treaty, meaning that it was a negotiated settlment. 

And which piece of gov't land is it exactly that first nations are barred from these days?  Where can they NOT go and build a home just like whitey can?  

So they are given EVERY SINGLE RIGHT that the rest of us have. So..... We stole their land and gave it back to them?

And they ALSO have a bunch of rights ON TOP of what the rest of us have.  So we stole their land and then gave them MORE rights than us?

Utter fail kid. 
 

Quote

Yes many western hoped the Jewish diaspora would relocate to Israel.

And yet never asked them to leave   So  in other words they didn't built it for that reason, but some people hoped it might work out that way. Yawn. 

Quote

Here is where you are once again out of your depth and bullshitting. What Canada doesn’t do is double cross countries and violate treaties once we’ve got what we wanted.

Yeah we do.  HOw's kyoto coming along? Or Paris? how's that 'not allowing international or chinese steel to be sold as canadian" going? Remember when suddenly mexicans needed passports? We've broken dozens of international agreements and treaties over the years. 

Quote

And you do understand that if the treaties are null and void then the land that was ceded to the crown under those treaties is no longer part of Canada right? That’s how that works.

It's not.  Sorry.  There are no property rights in canada.  If the parliament passes a law to say all indian land is now canadian they can do that. They actually have done that in the past.  hell they can pass a law tomorrow saying all of YOUR property now belongs to the gov't.  There are no property rights in canada. 

It's even been seriously considered. Kill the indian act, break up the reserves and take that land and give it to the first nations people living on the reserves as individual property and parcels that they can do with what they like.

It is the political backlash and not the law that prevents this kind of thing from happening and that's it.

Do not kid yourself kiddo, the government of Canada has an absolutely horrifying amount of power. If the public lets them get away with it they can do anything they want

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

There were no genocidal acts. That's blatantly obvious.

And the tens of billions spent on natives is not a 'tiny fraction' of my tax dollars. It's $32 billion this year alone just from the federal government. That doesn't count what the provinces spend on them.

Of course there were genocidal acts. Offering bounties for indian scalps as part of a depopulation program, deliberately exterminating buffalo, forced relocation into the far north and arctic where people died from disease and deprivation, residential schools and involuntary sterilization and forced adoption of indigenous children into white families. Per the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948):

 

The acts that constitute genocide fall into five categories:

• Killing members of the group

• Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group

• Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction, in whole or in part

• Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group

• Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

Every one of the above criteria was met with respect to treatment of indigenous peoples  

Regarding budget

- The most recent federal budget was $535 billion and indigenous people received 5% of it (or as a fraction 1/20 which is arguably is tiny). Indigenous people are 5% of the population.    For some reason that outrages you. Think about that for a while.

- there are indigenous communities that have been under boil water advisory for 20 + years and have had a permanent housing crisis for generations because of decades of inadequately funded infrastructure.  The Liberal government has been spending a small amount additional money to partially address these problems. Just like the military, if things had been funded properly all along they wouldn’t be so costly to fix now. There were 145 long term boil water advisors in effect in indigenous communities when the Liberals took office in 2015 and they’ve reduced that to 33. And  you’ve upset about that. Think about that for a while. 

[BeaverFever]

On 10/2/2024 at 11:12 AM, Five of swords said:

I don't understand why them being sexually abused is connected to them being natives. It is a well known cliche that kids in catholic schools are sexually abused. All kids. What does them being native have to do with anything? All kids in catholic school also had to suffer corporal punishment...etc. I don't see how those issues specifically relate to anything about them being native.

 

The only thing that really is connected to them being native is that they were being trained to be in a European culture rather than a native culture, which is not in their dna. But for people to admit that this matters in any way they would first have to admit that dna matters...which of course means that Adolf Hitler did nothing wrong. So nobody is allowed to argue that.

These schools were set up and funded by the government and they were forced to attend. Police and Indian agents would even forcibly remove children from their homes and snatch  kids off the street to take them to these schools. 

[ExFlyer]

10 hours ago, Five of swords said:

Well I don't care one bit what is racist. I personally prefer to focus on what is true.

That is the most truest statement you have ever made LOL

Racist statements are not true, just reflect on the author.

[BeaverFever]

11 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Nice that you leave out that this came AFTER the micmac's took French money to attack, murder and scalp English colonists, for the bounties the French would pay them.

But do go on portraying them as helpless innocents attacked by the evil British army.

So then why did the bounty also include m’ikmaq women and children but not French soldiers? And do you not understand this is still a situation where the indigenous people are caught in the middle of European war that invading colonizers brought to their land, and where both British and French are invading and aggressively encroaching on their home?  Your excuse-making is like saying the burglar acted in legitimate self-defence when he shot the homeowner during the burglary.

And your narrative that the peace-loving English had no choice because of indian savages and evil scheming French is just the typical anglo-saxon chauvinist BS 

 

12 hours ago, I am Groot said:

I think you're forgetting that any nation can withdraw from these treaties if they so desire.

Through negotiations and mutual agreement. Not simply by one side saying they will refuse to honour their side’s obligations while keeping what they received from the other side. You understand that termination of the treaty implies that the land ceded to the crown under the treaty would no longer be part of Canada right?

12 hours ago, I am Groot said:

We just need to do a constitutional amendment

LOL, So easy!

12 hours ago, I am Groot said:

and then cancel all the treaties. End of story. 

See above, re; ceded territory and its inhabitants would no longer legally be part of Canada 

12 hours ago, I am Groot said:

an exasperated populace, fed up with progressive court judgments, will just say 'enough' and repudiate all the treaties

Unfortunately democracies have that whole pesky rule of law thing. No wonder so many conservatives are embracing authoritarianism these day. What’s the point of democracy and a legal system if you can’t have to do inconvenient things like “negotiate” and “compromise” and “share” and can’t get 100% of your way 100% of the time, eh?

[ExFlyer]

39 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Of course there were genocidal acts. Offering bounties for indian scalps as part of a depopulation program, deliberately exterminating buffalo, forced relocation into the far north and arctic where people died from disease and deprivation, residential schools and involuntary sterilization and forced adoption of indigenous children into white families. Per the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948):

 

The acts that constitute genocide fall into five categories:

• Killing members of the group

• Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group

• Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction, in whole or in part

• Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group

• Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

Every one of the above criteria was met with respect to treatment of indigenous peoples  

Regarding budget

- The most recent federal budget was $535 billion and indigenous people received 5% of it (or as a fraction 1/20 which is arguably is tiny). Indigenous people are 5% of the population.    For some reason that outrages you. Think about that for a while.

- there are indigenous communities that have been under boil water advisory for 20 + years and have had a permanent housing crisis for generations because of decades of inadequately funded infrastructure.  The Liberal government has been spending a small amount additional money to partially address these problems. Just like the military, if things had been funded properly all along they wouldn’t be so costly to fix now. There were 145 long term boil water advisors in effect in indigenous communities when the Liberals took office in 2015 and they’ve reduced that to 33. And  you’ve upset about that. Think about that for a while. 

Yes there may have been genocide but, the indigeouh=s themselves committed genocide against opposing tribes.

No indigenous were ever "forced relocation into the far north and arctic ". They all stayed where they were and those places were then designated reserves or "nations".

Of the 535 billion dollar federal budget, "Indigenous priorities has increased significantly since 2015 (181 per cent) with spending for 2023-24 estimated to be over $30.5 billion, rising further to a forecast of approximately $32 billion in 2024-25. " and that doe snot include the mandatory obligation for every department to ensure a certain percentage of all procurements be allotted to indigenous.

There are many indigenous communities that have water treatment plants but, they do not keep them up, hence, they have to boil water.

 

[ExFlyer]

5 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

So then why did the bounty also include m’ikmaq women and children but not French soldiers? And do you not understand this is still a situation where the indigenous people are caught in the middle of European war that invading colonizers brought to their land, and where both British and French are invading and aggressively encroaching on their home?  Your excuse-making is like saying the burglar acted in legitimate self-defence when he shot the homeowner during the burglary.

And your narrative that the peace-loving English had no choice because of indian savages and evil scheming French is just the typical anglo-saxon chauvinist BS 

 

Through negotiations and mutual agreement. Not simply by one side saying they will refuse to honour their side’s obligations while keeping what they received from the other side. You understand that termination of the treaty implies that the land ceded to the crown under the treaty would no longer be part of Canada right?

LOL, So easy!

See above, re; ceded territory and its inhabitants would no longer legally be part of Canada 

Unfortunately democracies have that whole pesky rule of law thing. No wonder so many conservatives are embracing authoritarianism these day. What’s the point of democracy and a legal system if you can’t have to do inconvenient things like “negotiate” and “compromise” and “share” and can’t get 100% of your way 100% of the time, eh?

Scalping happened long before we were Canada. It was actually taken from an act the indigenous did to themselves. when

"In 1749, shortly after disembarking as governor of Nova Scotia and founder of the first British settlement at Halifax, Cornwallis blundered into a nasty fight with neighbouring Mi’kmaq tribes. In response to their initial attacks, Cornwallis issued a now-infamous proclamation, stating that his nascent colony would pay “a reward of ten Guineas… for every Indian Micmac taken, or killed, to be paid upon producing such Savage taken or his scalp." 

 

[Five of swords]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

These schools were set up and funded by the government and they were forced to attend. Police and Indian agents would even forcibly remove children from their homes and snatch  kids off the street to take them to these schools. 

How is that any different from non native children?

[Five of swords]

54 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

That is the most truest statement you have ever made LOL

Racist statements are not true, just reflect on the author.

How would you know whether a racist statement is true?

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

So then why did the bounty also include m’ikmaq women and children but not French soldiers?

Because the French weren't murdering English civilians.

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

And do you not understand this is still a situation where the indigenous people are caught in the middle of European war that invading colonizers brought to their land, and where both British and French are invading and aggressively encroaching on their home?  

Bullshit. Nobody twisted their arms or threatened them to get them to attack and murder English colonists. They did it because the French paid them to. NO sympathy here.

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

 

Your excuse-making is like saying the burglar acted in legitimate self-defence when he shot the homeowner during the burglary.

You're the one trying to make excuses "Oh, oh, the poor, innocent natives were just dancing in the sunflowers when the evil British colonists FORCED them to murder women and children! 

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

And your narrative that the peace-loving English had no choice because of indian savages and evil scheming French is just the typical anglo-saxon chauvinist BS 

No, what's typical is your liberal bigotry of low expectations. 

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Through negotiations and mutual agreement. Not simply by one side saying they will refuse to honour their side’s obligations while keeping what they received from the other side.

Suppose you find me anywhere in those treaties that says we need to provide them with housing, with heating, with water, with electricity and healthcare.

 

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

 

You understand that termination of the treaty implies that the land ceded to the crown under the treaty would no longer be part of Canada right?

LOL. Think so? No, dude. That land is part of Canada. It's not going to be returned to the ancestors of people we took it from.

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

LOL, So easy!

See above, re; ceded territory and its inhabitants would no longer legally be part of Canada 

A constitutional amendment that removed their ancestral rights would take care of that too.

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Unfortunately democracies have that whole pesky rule of law thing.

The pesky thing is the arrogant judges who continue to 'read into' the Constitution words and intentions which were never there. I think the same constitutional amendment that says natives have no more rights than other Canadians can restrict what the courts can 'read into' the constitution.

 

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

No wonder so many conservatives are embracing authoritarianism these day. 

I think authoritarianism, as you call it, is a reaction to governments and courts who are deliberately writing and altering laws that harm the country and the vast bulk of the population. It's hard for a thinking person to respect that and to not want it changed. I, for example, would like to do a constitutional amendment that allowed the privy council to call a referendum that would overrule supreme court decisions.

Edited October 6 by I am Groot

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Of course there were genocidal acts. Offering bounties for indian scalps as part of a depopulation program, deliberately exterminating buffalo, forced relocation into the far north and arctic where people died from disease and deprivation, residential schools and involuntary sterilization and forced adoption of indigenous children into white families. Per the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948):

Let me play the world's smallest violin for you while you cry. And don't cite conventions as if they apply retroactively. They don't. If we'd wanted to exterminate the natives there wouldn't be any around today. That IS, after all, how they treated their enemies. 

But I'm guessing you're not going to accuse them of committing genocide. Because, after all, they were ignorant savages who weren't capable of morality.

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Regarding budget

- The most recent federal budget was $535 billion and indigenous people received 5% of it (or as a fraction 1/20 which is arguably is tiny). Indigenous people are 5% of the population.    For some reason that outrages you. Think about that for a while.

The latest budget allocated $32 billion to natives. And btw, you're ignoring that much money is spent that is not specifically targeted at natives but is a part of the operating budget of Canada - a place natives are citizens of. That means spending on foreign affairs, highways and infrastructure, defense, pensions, etc. 

Spending on Indigenous priorities has increased significantly since 2015 (181 per cent) with spending for 2023-24 estimated to be over $30.5 billion, rising further to a forecast of approximately $32 billion in 2024-25. Notably, Budget 2024 includes $2.3 billion over five years to renew existing programming

https://budget.canada.ca/2024/report-rapport/chap6-en.html

 

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

- there are indigenous communities that have been under boil water advisory for 20 + years and have had a permanent housing crisis for generations because of decades of inadequately funded infrastructure.

I remember reading an article last year or the year before about how natives had had to boil water on a reserve for a long time until one young man finally got bored and volunteered to take the course in how to maintain their government-paid water filtration system. Shortly thereafter, it started working again. None of the natives had ever bothered to try to maintain it before. 

Natives don't maintain their plants or their houses. They treat housing the same as welfare tenants in city public housing projects.

 

13 hours ago, eyeball said:

Is more money all that your own sense of nationalism and nation hood is composed of?

It's funny that so many people are chagrined about the apparent poor state of Canadian sense of nationalism these days.

Why?

if these people consider themselves to be part of some other nation why should I care what happens to them?

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, I am Groot said:

if these people consider themselves to be part of some other nation why should I care what happens to them?

Well, because they're also human beings you need to share the planet with.

Do unto others yadda yadda.

[I am Groot]

13 hours ago, eyeball said:

No, the barriers to their national aspirations

You mean the aspiration to be completely self-governing but with me paying all the bills?

 

13 hours ago, eyeball said:

You people just can't get your heads around this nation to nation thing though can you? It's why you're forever throwing these condescending tropes out.

I can't get my head about a 'nation' of five or six hundred people, no. 

 

13 hours ago, eyeball said:

Interestingly enough when you apply them to a nation they always fit better when describing Canada which after all, was founded on the principle of freeloading and squatting as opposed to settling.

Really? Freeloading seems like its the bulk of native culture these days, with a side order of whining and complaining.

Just now, eyeball said:

Well, because they're also human beings you need to share the planet with.

Do unto others yadda yadda.

So I should care about them as much as I do about the people of Somalia? Ok.

[eyeball]

4 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

You mean the aspiration to be completely self-governing but with me paying all the bills?

You really need to do more research into modern treaties.

4 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Really? Freeloading seems like its the bulk of native culture these days, with a side order of whining and complaining.

You see what you want to see.

5 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

So I should care about them as much as I do about the people of Somalia? Ok.

Exactly.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Five of swords said:

How would you know whether a racist statement is true?

All racst statements are biased and generalizations.

[Five of swords]

7 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

All racst statements are biased and generalizations.

I have no idea and still do not care what a racist statement is. But it is a logical fallacy to say all generalizations are false...in fact that statement refutes itself. A claim is also not true or false depending on whether it is biased...Indeed the motivation for a claim is irrelevant to whether it is true.

[ExFlyer]

3 hours ago, Five of swords said:

I have no idea and still do not care what a racist statement is. But it is a logical fallacy to say all generalizations are false...in fact that statement refutes itself. A claim is also not true or false depending on whether it is biased...Indeed the motivation for a claim is irrelevant to whether it is true.

You are what you are...a racist.

[CdnFox]

6 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Of course there were genocidal acts. Offering bounties for indian scalps as part of a depopulation program, deliberately exterminating buffalo, forced relocation into the far north and arctic where people died from disease and deprivation, residential schools and involuntary sterilization and forced adoption of indigenous children into white families. Per the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948):

 

The acts that constitute genocide fall into five categories:

• Killing members of the group

• Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group

• Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction, in whole or in part

• Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group

• Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

Every one of the above criteria was met with respect to treatment of indigenous peoples  

Regarding budget

- The most recent federal budget was $535 billion and indigenous people received 5% of it (or as a fraction 1/20 which is arguably is tiny). Indigenous people are 5% of the population.    For some reason that outrages you. Think about that for a while.

- there are indigenous communities that have been under boil water advisory for 20 + years and have had a permanent housing crisis for generations because of decades of inadequately funded infrastructure.  The Liberal government has been spending a small amount additional money to partially address these problems. Just like the military, if things had been funded properly all along they wouldn’t be so costly to fix now. There were 145 long term boil water advisors in effect in indigenous communities when the Liberals took office in 2015 and they’ve reduced that to 33. And  you’ve upset about that. Think about that for a while. 

That's some pretty fictional crap.

I'm surprised you didn't try to cram other discreded lies like "gave away small pox blankets" or the like. 

And not one of your conditions was met - except perhaps for killing some of them, which first nations did to europeans as well. 

Your dishonesty and revisionist history does NOT constitute a genocide. 

FURTHER - it would be grossly inappropriate to apply the meanings today to a world that hasn't existed for almost 2 centuries at this point. 

[WestCanMan]

On 9/30/2024 at 1:14 PM, Dougie93 said:

Reconciliation Day : Chief Tecumseh

stalwart ally of the Crown at Fort Detroit,  in the face of American revolution

Herbie didn't know what he was getting himself into 🤣

[WestCanMan]

38 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

That's some pretty fictional crap.

That's like the "shiniest fishing lure" in the Liberal tackle box. A poor little guppy guppy like Beave is powerless to resist it.

You'd get a cooler reception offering free Oxy to the junkies on Hastings St.

[WestCanMan]

Truth and Rad Surfing Day hasn't affected my sympathy towards natives at all.

At the end of the day the treatment/trauma that kids experienced at rez schools was an appalling tragedy (just not the tragedy that the LPOC, MSM and a few natives are selling) and there's nothing we can do to give those natives their childhood back or undo the damage that reverberated throughout the rest of their lifetimes and still ripples through generations today. 

I think it's ridiculous for the LPOC to use it as a wedge issue, that's about it. 

[Army Guy]

22 hours ago, herbie said:

Nothing? Then you're all fired up over nothing? And everyone else needs to calm down about PP because he hasn't happened yet?

I said almost nothing....the rest of your post is exactly what i said, Eyeball is whining about something that has not happen yet...

[Army Guy]

21 hours ago, eyeball said:

That's an emoticon indicating that I'm laughing at what's coming AG. I'm expecting a spectacle of angry expectations that will only become more desperate as Poilievre's progress falters, stalls and then blows up in your smug stupid faces.

It'll be hilarious.

The Liberals made a political mockery of it for the most part, same as with climate action. The NDP got us dental-care...AFAIC that's huge progress that outshines just about anything else I can attribute to a Canadian government in years.

The SCC is clearly who deserves most of the credit for advancing reconciliation. To bad they can't be given more responsibility for doing something about climate change. That said, I expect we might start seeing that as people start suing negligent governments for damages related to climate change.

This reminds me of the proverbial, 'does your dog bite' question.

Or maybe it will be a truly conservative day as liberal and NDP heads explode all across the country as PP starts to cut all the fat ...and he is going to do that without handing out free pagers...

NDP got shit...Dental care is still not completed, not yet anyways...and who says it will remain with PP in power...In 9 years in power and the most you can brag about is dental care....WOW...

 

[CdnFox]

55 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Truth and Rad Surfing Day hasn't affected my s

actually spit a bit of my tea there....  You're on a roll today