The health care system is failing; give us choice.

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

The liberals have taken over the system by loading the unelected Senate and unelected courts up to the Supreme Court.  It will be very difficult for the Conservatives to do much.

indeed, the Conservatives are not going to save us

they're not even really conservatives

once in power, the Conservatives will adopt all the Liberal policies

even the carbon tax, since the Conservatives will need the revenue it generates as much as the Liberals do

it won't be long before the Conservative government will be just as if not even more despised than Trudeau

[I am Groot]

On 5/14/2024 at 3:30 PM, Black Dog said:

"Choice" here means rich people get to choose the best care money can buy and the poor get scraps.

I don't know if you'd care to poke your head up out of that red walled cave of yours, doggy, but that's what we have now.

If you think rich people are waiting for fourteen hours at the ER to see a doctor, or waiting for years for hip replacement surgery or something you really are living in a different world. Even the moderately well-off like myself can pay to get a far more attentive doctor than the government-supplied version. And that attentive doctor works at a pricy clinic (appointments within 24hrs guaranteed) with connections that can often get me booted ahead of others for treatment or tests elsewhere. 

On 5/14/2024 at 5:22 PM, herbie said:

You have a choice. Go somewhere else and pay them for it.

That's what they're asking for within Canada. And that would make far more sense than having them take their money elsewhere. The only issue is lack of doctors and nurses, but that shortage was created by the government and can be addressed if the various governments ever decide to do it. So far, no level of government has put an awful lot of effort into doing so.

[I am Groot]

On 5/14/2024 at 8:06 PM, herbie said:

Oh you're not subverting health care, you're 'taking the pressure off', eh?

Move to the states if everything here is so shitty in your view.

The sad thing is that middle-class - ie, the bulk of people - now get better care and treatment in the US than Canada. The only class that gets somewhat better care in Canada is the poor.

[I am Groot]

On 5/14/2024 at 9:08 PM, Venandi said:

Maybe I'm not bright enough to see this at first glance  so I'll be the dummy who asks the question:

If medical personnel shortages are the primary contributor to wait times, I don't see how the creation of a parallel system with personnel drawn from the original one alleviates it.  

No, the shortage needs to be eliminated, first. Unfortunately, no level of government is willing to do so. There are a variety of means you could do to increase the number of doctors and nurses. 

1 Create a Canada-wide registration system for foreign doctors and nurses, including temporary ones. Anyone who works in a Western country with a comparable level of healthcare sophistication can register there and work anywhere in Canada without going through the nonsense of years-long testing and evaluation from Canadian provincial medical associations. 

2 Make healthcare technicians, doctors and nurses a special category for foreign workers. People from western countries working in those jobs now can be brought over to work for a month, six months, a year, or however long they want by any healthcare institution in Canada with an absolute minimum of red tape.

3 Offer free tuition for doctors willing to work as family doctors. Due to our shortage of medical/nursing school spaces, subsidize Canadian students to study in another Western country as long as their marks are high enough on condition they return to work here or pay it back with interest.

4 increase the number of medical/nursing school seats by bringing in foreign teachers and paying for more residency positions in hospitals. Temporarily cancel all foreign training positions in Canada, ie, the one with the Saudis.

 

[Venandi]

Pretty much how I see it too. I'm not opposed to parallel systems but now is not the time to pour gas on things. 

I've watched people with gas cans and memos from the 'good idea fairy" try to rewrite fire orders while the building burns... not once have I seen that approach work. 

Fix the problem within the existing system and then modify as required to achieve efficiencies once you have a handle on things. 

We got here by losing the recruiting, retention and operational tempo bubble over decades. A slow motion train wreck that was always 100% predictable, there was no other possible outcome. It will take 3 training cycles (5 years each) or 15 total to undo this without poaching foreign trained personnel. And that's if we start today... and we won't. 

Good Lord, how many health care workers in BC are still out due to mandates after mandates were removed? if you're going to do that during a period of dire shortages then good luck, I got nothing for ya. 

Edited May 16, 2024 by Venandi

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Venandi said:

 

Good Lord, how many health care workers in BC are still out due to mandates after mandates were removed? if you're going to do that during a period of dire shortages then good luck, I got nothing for ya. 

Most have moved on i think  why would they want to come back after all. 

[Black Dog]

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

I don't know if you'd care to poke your head up out of that red walled cave of yours, doggy, but that's what we have now.

If you think rich people are waiting for fourteen hours at the ER to see a doctor, or waiting for years for hip replacement surgery or something you really are living in a different world. Even the moderately well-off like myself can pay to get a far more attentive doctor than the government-supplied version. And that attentive doctor works at a pricy clinic (appointments within 24hrs guaranteed) with connections that can often get me booted ahead of others for treatment or tests elsewhere. 

So what's the problem, dipshit? 

[Black Dog]

17 hours ago, ironstone said:

Are you content with the current state of the health care system?

No. I just don't think making it worse and more expensive is the answer.

[blackbird]

If you are trusting in government to provide good health care, forget it.  Socialized systems often fail to deliver on their promises.  Socialists promise a paradise but fail to deliver.  It should be remembered that government is under many pressures and tries to appease every interest group.  

[ironstone]

47 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

No. I just don't think making it worse and more expensive is the answer.

Since the status quo isn't delivering, do you not have any suggestions to improve our health care system? If you rule out any private sector involvement, what's the next step?

[Dougie93]

35 minutes ago, ironstone said:

Since the status quo isn't delivering, do you not have any suggestions to improve our health care system?

pretty simple

just adopt the Swiss public healthcare system

wherein the state imposes mandates on the private insurance companies to provide universal care

you do have to pay a premium, which is 8% of your annual income

although there is choice therein, in that some doctors in Switzerland charge less than the average

but since the private insurance companies in Switzerland

can also provide additional care to those who can pay more

there is no shortages, the private healthcare subsidizes the public healthcare therein

the Swiss public healthcare system is universally recognized as being the best in the world

it's 20% cheaper than Canadian public healthcare

and unlike in Canada, the healthcare in Switzerland is plentiful

Edited May 16, 2024 by Dougie93

[taxme]

20 hours ago, blackbird said:

I just read a headline of a new item that says a Conservative government may be blocked by the liberal appointed Senate.  If that is the case, what happened to democracy?

Democracy has pretty much died in Canada. If this Marxist WEF globalist dictator in Ottawa is not voted out of office in the next election, all i can say is that, we ain't seen nuttin yet. pardner. It will be time to head for America, the land of the free, and the home of the brave. Even with the dictator in Washington, for now, America is still a lot freer than what we are in Marxist Canada. America has a 1st Amendment, where Canada does not, even though the Charter of Rights says we do. 

And with this new Online Harms Act Bill that the dictator in Ottawa wants to try and make become law, websites like this one could be gone. Matter of fact, I am pretty sure that this website and many others like this one, will be gone. The only websites that will be still around are the ones that are willing to kiss the dictator's arse. This country is getting worse by the day. It's not a joke anymore. It's getting really very serious now. Just my opinion of course, while i am still allowed to have one for now. 😒

[I am Groot]

3 hours ago, Black Dog said:

So what's the problem, dipshit? 

Clearly, the problem, you silly twat, is that there are still a lot of restrictions on what services can be legally offered in Canada for fees. Like most surgeries. The far left (that's you) who have no understanding of money or economics, think its somehow better for these individuals to take their money and pay exorbitant fees to American hospitals to do surgeries. Some Canadian provinces even pay the US fees for surgeries rather than allow surgeries to be bought and paid for here.

This leads to one more downgrading of Canadians' quality of life, along with flooding our streets with drugged-out criminals, flooding our cities with foreigners, many of whom can barely gobble a word of English, to lower wages and increase housing costs, subsidizing and protecting oligopolies so we have the most expensive services in the world, and imposing a massive regulatory burden on private industry, especially the natural resources industry. All while imposing high taxes on everyone to support all of the above. 

[Black Dog]

2 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Clearly, the problem, you silly twat, is that there are still a lot of restrictions on what services can be legally offered in Canada for fees. Like most surgeries. The far left (that's you) who have no understanding of money or economics, think its somehow better for these individuals to take their money and pay exorbitant fees to American hospitals to do surgeries. Some Canadian provinces even pay the US fees for surgeries rather than allow surgeries to be bought and paid for here.

This leads to one more downgrading of Canadians' quality of life, along with flooding our streets with drugged-out criminals, flooding our cities with foreigners, many of whom can barely gobble a word of English, to lower wages and increase housing costs, subsidizing and protecting oligopolies so we have the most expensive services in the world, and imposing a massive regulatory burden on private industry, especially the natural resources industry. All while imposing high taxes on everyone to support all of the above. 

I think the best thing you can do is to avail yourself of MAID since you clearly hate your life here.

[I am Groot]

4 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

I think the best thing you can do is to avail yourself of MAID since you clearly hate your life here.

I don't think they'd grant it to me. I, after all, have a fully operational brain. Yours seems to have been dead and rotted for some time now. So I return the suggestion to you.

[herbie]

41 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

is that there are still a lot of restrictions on what services can be legally offered in Canada for fees. Like most surgeries

Posting steaming loads of horseshit as a response doesn't help. There are a few surgeries not done here and some you won't get tomorrow morning you wait your turn. There's also elective surgeries you can get done privately here.

[Black Dog]

45 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

I don't think they'd grant it to me. I, after all, have a fully operational brain. Yours seems to have been dead and rotted for some time now. So I return the suggestion to you.

Don't let that stop you from giving it a try, I'm sure your family would thank you. if not you can always try taking a little drive in the garage with the door closed.

[CdnFox]

22 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Don't let that stop you from giving it a try, I'm sure your family would thank you. if not you can always try taking a little drive in the garage with the door closed.

 LOL - look at the 'compassionate' lefties at work   well i guess any pretense that you care about human life went out the window, but then given your support in other threads for terrorists and rapists i guess that's to be expected. 

[suds]

Under the 'Physician Services Agreement' in Ontario (which expired in April 2024), physicians billed OHIP $37.95 for a typical patient visit. When one considers staff, rent, and overhead, $37.95 doesn't exactly go a long way to cover all the associated costs. Which is one of the key reasons a smaller and smaller number of  doctors are choosing family medicine. There are 2.2 million living in Ontario who don't have a family doctor and which is projected to double by 2026 unless somethings change. Consider that if you own a pet and bring it in for a yearly veterinarian exam it's going to cost you at least double that. And who came up with this wacky idea that nobody pays nothing, just simply present your OHIP card?? Everyone except for kids and those under 18 should pay something according to income. It might cut down on frivolous visits to the doctor's office. So pay the doctors more and start charging for services depending on income. And we'll see.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-family-doctors-pay-compensation-ohip-billing-fees-1.7137716

Edited May 16, 2024 by suds

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, suds said:

Under the 'Physician Services Agreement' in Ontario (which expired in April 2024), physicians billed OHIP $37.95 for a typical patient visit. When one considers staff, rent, and overhead, $37.95 doesn't exactly go a long way to cover all the associated costs. Which is one of the key reasons a smaller and smaller number of  doctors are choosing family medicine. There are 2.2 million living in Ontario who don't have a family doctor and which is projected to double by 2026 unless somethings change. Consider that if you own a pet and bring it in for a yearly veterinarian exam it's going to cost you at least double that. And who came up with this wacky idea that nobody pays nothing, just simply present your OHIP card?? Everyone except for kids and those under 18 should pay something according to income. It might cut down on frivolous visits to the doctor's office. So pay the doctors more and start charging for services

the problem is that Canadian governments are now funding everything by debt and/or money printing

so the government simply paying more only incites inflation

thus the increase in pay is offset by the corresponding devaluing of the currency

[I am Groot]

2 hours ago, herbie said:

Posting steaming loads of horseshit as a response doesn't help. There are a few surgeries not done here and some you won't get tomorrow morning you wait your turn. There's also elective surgeries you can get done privately here.

You're a liar, a fool, and a useless twat all rolled into one big, steaming pile of excrement.

1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

Don't let that stop you from giving it a try, I'm sure your family would thank you. if not you can always try taking a little drive in the garage with the door closed.

At least I have one, you cave-dwelling vermin.

[blackbird]

7 hours ago, Venandi said:

Fix the problem within the existing system and then modify as required to achieve efficiencies once you have a handle on things. 

Unfortunately government does not know how or is unwilling to fix the existing system.  It may just get worse.

The only way to help Canadians get better and eliminate the waiting lists is for government to get out of the way and let private medical companies come in and start providing the services we are entitled to.  At the same time, recommendations such as what I am Groot said should be considered and tried.  We need far more doctors and staff.  Six million Canadians don't even have a family doctor.  Just letting the existing system continue along and hoping things will get better won't cut it.  Canadians' life span will be negatively affected as more people die on waiting lists or are unable to get proper and timely treatment.  We simply can't leave it to or let government do the job.  They have proven they are incapable.  

If you think government can solve the problem, try writing a letter to the minister of health and see what kind of reply you will get.  

[suds]

2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

the problem is that Canadian governments are now funding everything by debt and/or money printing

so the government simply paying more only incites inflation

thus the increase in pay is offset by the corresponding devaluing of the currency

I suppose, but one thing covid taught us is that they have to do some real serious money printing to make inflation a serious problem. On the other hand, if we were all forced to pay a percentage of the doctor's bill (depending on income) out of pocket as an extra, then that could be seen as a pay increase. No? Obviously, if we want to see more doctors get involved with family medicine then we have to pay them more, some way. some how. There's no other way around it.

Edited May 17, 2024 by suds

[Venandi]

18 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Most have moved on i think  why would they want to come back after all. 

And incredibly, it's not the talk of the town.

Actually I'm in awe... during an acknowledged shortage of healthcare workers, POOF 2,500 of them gonzo in one fell swoop. It weighs heavy on the attrition side of an already grossly unbalanced manning equation with (seemingly) no consideration of the opportunity cost associated.

It may have been legal but that certainly doesn't make the action less insane, the only thing crazier is hearing people defend it as necessary and reasonable when it would likely be defined as the exact opposite during any grade 3 classroom discussion in the country.

I've been wondering how this action got (and continues to get) by BC voters... how is it they aren't utterly outraged about the cost they're paying? Where are the protests and occupations?

Same question with the safe supply madness.... taken together, how many people have these fools killed with the tacit support of voters who subscribe to Scarlet's theory of rational discourse.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2024 by Venandi

[Venandi]

12 hours ago, blackbird said:

Unfortunately government does not know how or is unwilling to fix the existing system.  It may just get worse.

I understand what you're saying and tend to agree, the madness (I referred to above) even  supports that view until you begin to associate what's happening with other examples of agenda driven insanity (I'm thinking religious zealots here).

Given the LSD fuelled policy initiatives that spawned the outcomes on display now, I'm left asking "what did you think was going to happen?"  

The fact that delusional governments aren't solving this doesn't make the system bad (necessarily) even though it speaks to the "voter mentality vs quality politician" dilemma we seem to be choking on now.

Nothing wrong with parallel private and government systems in IMO but switching horses during a serious emergency (that's where we are IMO) never, (n my experience anyway) yields the desired outcome, it only sets it back. Training times are just too long to get this wrong by throwing gas on something we can make work in the interim. Making it work may require something like setting up BATs (big tents) on university property and running courses in 3 shifts 24/7 until we catch up. I'm not recommending that BTW simply saying that after watching the house burn for decades we are only now thinking about the water required to put it out.

If something is 60% effective you don't set fire to it during the course of an emergency, you grab it by the throat and make it perform.... then when dust clears you give it the spanking it deserves because you now have the means to do so without shooting your own foot off. Right now we don't even have a belt holding our collective pants up.... it makes spanking this dog of a system difficult at best.

Anyway, it always seems to circle back to voters electing the foolish and then getting the policies they voted for... maybe elections are a good time to pay attention, maybe even discuss policy initiatives eh? Think back to defunding police departments, if ever there was a textbook case of voter madness and getting exactly what you asked for wouldn't that qualify?

Imagine a world where people voted on policy as opposed to narrative and the sort of political dogma that rivals the best on offer from religious zealots.