CSIS: Liberal MP is alleged Chinese agent, Trudeau ignored warnings

[Moonlight Graham]

39 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Been there done that, I'm Involved. It isn't changed a thing. I've been on our area planning commission for nearly 40 year and I've seen a few people move on to become MLA's.

I recall when it was decided to hold our meetings via Zoom when COVID hit and within hours tongues were wagging and emails about dictatorship were flying.

The mistrust has only gotten worse.

 

 

What is the primary problem then causing all this?  People in general are just entitled self-serving a-holes?

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

The government overcoming their mistrust of us will be the biggest challenge our government faces and I don't think they're up to that challenge at all.

you are not actually supposed to trust the government

that is the whole point of a Westminster Parliament

the government and opposition were placed two lengths apart

so that they could not kill each other with one stroke of a sword

Glorious Revolution of 1688

William III the Dutch Regent invades England

with a printing press, handing out pamphlets

wherein he convinced the English to make him King

on the promise of Parliamentary Supremacy

the birth of the modern liberal state

which was adversarial by design

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Been there done that, I'm Involved. It isn't changed a thing. I've been on our area planning commission for nearly 40 year and I've seen a few people move on to become MLA's.

I recall when it was decided to hold our meetings via Zoom when COVID hit and within hours tongues were wagging and emails about dictatorship were flying.

The mistrust has only gotten worse.

 

 

A local planning commission is not the same as working on an MP's campaign or serving on their policy boards or the like, or attending political conventions. 

And if you've been at it 40 years and aren't making any difference, youj're really not doing it right.  It's not hard to make a difference even if it's not everything you want.

[Dougie93]

Terry Glavin: Trudeau's relationship with China far uglier than any links Trump had with Russia

Unlike in the U.S., there’s already a surfeit of evidence suggesting collusion between Beijing’s proxies and Liberal party campaigners

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/trudeaus-relationship-with-china-far-uglier-than-any-links-trump-had-with-russia

[Moonlight Graham]

2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Terry Glavin: Trudeau's relationship with China far uglier than any links Trump had with Russia

Unlike in the U.S., there’s already a surfeit of evidence suggesting collusion between Beijing’s proxies and Liberal party campaigners

 

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/trudeaus-relationship-with-china-far-uglier-than-any-links-trump-had-with-russia

The National Post and Postmedia papers are rags.  They're propaganda outlets for the Conservative Party of Canada.

And here's the proof.  This was 2 days before the 2015 federal election on the cover of all Postmedia newspapers countrywide:

https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entry/postmedia-sun-front-pages-replaced-with-full-page-political-ads_n_8326634

 

[CdnFox]

17 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

And here's the proof.

Yeah - no.  Those papers also sold ads to the liberals. And ndp. And so did every paper.  That's just the papers the conservatives chose to buy ads in.

You have a very poor understanding of how the news media and politics work if you thought that during an election ANY paper would refuse ads for a political party. The liberals would have been able to buy the same ad if they'd had any money left.

That was a COMPLETE swing and a miss. Wow.

 

Edit - and those ads sure turned out to be true didn't they   The liberals certainly did cost us. Huge. Truth in advertising.

Edited March 11, 2023 by CdnFox

[eyeball]

5 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

you are not actually supposed to trust the government

that is the whole point of a Westminster Parliament

the government and opposition were placed two lengths apart

No, the intent wasn't to make the governed the opposition to the government however I do note that no matter who wins the government always gets in.

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

No, the intent wasn't to make the governed the opposition to the government however I do note that no matter who wins the government always gets in.

That's actually a pretty good line

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

A local planning commission is not the same as working on an MP's campaign or serving on their policy boards or the like, or attending political conventions.

No it isn't. It's more about actual governance, that however brings you into closer contact with the political side of things.

Quote

And if you've been at it 40 years and aren't making any difference, youj're really not doing it right.  It's not hard to make a difference even if it's not everything you want.

I've made a difference governing not politicing.  

[eyeball]

6 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

What is the primary problem then causing all this?  People in general are just entitled self-serving a-holes?

What's causing the mistrust?  I think we definitely have to consider what sort of effect that evasive governance that avoids accountability and transparency like it was a disease has on a society.  Brainwashing is hooey but this is more like rust that never sleeps.  Remember this has been going on all our lives.

Official and political evasiveness gives rise to misinformation because a speculative media that still needs to sell stories fills in the blanks the politicians leave in their wake.  Social media and the internet turbo-charge stuff to the point things are so retarded we have dingbats running around telling us that COVID was engineered to meet the needs of the vaccine instead of the other way around.

Yeah, welcome to tenalP Htrae.

[CdnFox]

29 minutes ago, eyeball said:

No it isn't. It's more about actual governance, that however brings you into closer contact with the political side of things.

Getting hit by a car may bring you into closer contact with it, but its' not the same as driving it.

We're discussing how to make a difference to the political parties and what they put forward. So that's something very different and you can have an effect there

29 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I've made a difference governing not politicing.  

there's politics in all governance, so either your kind of pulling our leg or you're trying to split hairs.

And the liberals have shown us just how bad things can get if you have politics without governance.

In any case we're talking about political parties and shaping and making them work. And clearly you have not been involved with that process. Trying to pass off working with them from the outside as the same thing is simply not real.

If you're unhappy with your political options then ACTUALLY get involved. You CAN make a big difference. If you don't then  you have to live with whatever scraps others leave for you and for some people that works out just fine, but it doesn't sound like it's working for you.

I know that it takes time and nobody has any today but it is important that you do your bit for democracy. Democracy is a hell of a lot more than just showing up to vote once every 4 years or so. For the people to govern, the people have to govern.  And that means participating.

[eyeball]

37 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

That's actually a pretty good line

I can't lay claim to it and while I doubt dougie actually meant to imply the governed and governments are like political parties in opposition to one another but there is definitely a divide between the two that is far bigger and far more important than the one we imagine separates progressives from conservatives.

[Moonlight Graham]

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Yeah - no.  Those papers also sold ads to the liberals. And ndp. And so did every paper.  That's just the papers the conservatives chose to buy ads in.

You have a very poor understanding of how the news media and politics work if you thought that during an election ANY paper would refuse ads for a political party. The liberals would have been able to buy the same ad if they'd had any money left.

That was a COMPLETE swing and a miss. Wow.

 

Edit - and those ads sure turned out to be true didn't they   The liberals certainly did cost us. Huge. Truth in advertising.

Geez why so defensive?  LOL you think the Postmedia papers would allow NDP and Liberal ads filling THE ENTIRE FRONT PAGE of all heir newspapers nationwide 2 days before an election?   Well show me the proof because its never happened.  Any major newspaper running a partisan ad on its entire front page 2 days before an election is a pile of garbage not even worthy to line a litter box.

Now stroll over to Nationalpost.com and look at all the right-leaning articles and CPC apologists.

CBC News is almost bad towards their Liberal Party chums, they just hide it better because they're a public broadcaster.

National Post and CBC News are propaganda rags, as is the Toronto Star.  News outlets feigning being " legit journalism" that have a political agenda can suck it.

[CdnFox]

8 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Geez why so defensive? 

Not defensive - annoyed.  I find that level of "dense" a bit off putting. Seriously, this was pretty bad.

Quote

LOL you think the Postmedia papers would allow NDP and Liberal ads filling THE ENTIRE FRONT PAGE of all heir newspapers nationwide 2 days before an election?  

Not only would they - they would be in serious legal trouble if they didn't. Postmedia carried LOTS of ndp and liberal ads.

Quote

Well show me the proof because its never happened. 

Never not happened either - can you show me any evidence they tried and were turned down'? NO? thought not.

Any paper will run political ads for any party during an election. it's a very long standing tradition. They're very careful about pricing too so they don't look like they're donating to the campaign.

8 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Any major newspaper running a partisan ad on its entire front page 2 days before an election is a pile of garbage not even worthy to line a litter box.

Every single paper will do that if you pay them. It's not even a 'front page' its just a sort of flyer that goes over their front page. They've done it for other advertizers as well. Got big bucks, you can do that.

Look - you want to have a sane discussion about media bias, that's fine. There's lots of bias in media. But this - this specific example - you have to be 17 different kind of thick to think that's an example of media bias. 

FFS dude. PLEASE do a little more research than that.

Edited March 11, 2023 by CdnFox
Spelling - it said bugs not bucks :)

[Dougie93]

Canada's way of life in 'jeopardy' as governments fail to take security issues 'seriously': Mark Norman

The former vice admiral blasted federal politicians of all stripes for the 'irresponsible' and 'dangerous' politicization of the country's security and defence

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/mark-norman-canada-way-of-life-in-jeopardy

[Dougie93]

10 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The National Post and Postmedia papers are rags.  They're propaganda outlets for the Conservative Party of Canada.

And here's the proof.  This was 2 days before the 2015 federal election on the cover of all Postmedia newspapers countrywide:

https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entry/postmedia-sun-front-pages-replaced-with-full-page-political-ads_n_8326634

the information is coming from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service

are you asserting that CSIS is simply a proxy for the Conservative party as well ?

 

[ironstone]

11 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The National Post and Postmedia papers are rags.  They're propaganda outlets for the Conservative Party of Canada.

And here's the proof.  This was 2 days before the 2015 federal election on the cover of all Postmedia newspapers countrywide:

https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entry/postmedia-sun-front-pages-replaced-with-full-page-political-ads_n_8326634

 

I think it's more accurate to say that Postmedia has much more loyalty to Trudeau and his Liberals since they have been on the government payroll. 

But I would agree that most of the newspapers in Canada are rags.

I don't think Trudeau ever cared about the Chinese interference because he considered it to be helpful to the Liberals. He most certainly knew about it at the time.

[Dougie93]

this is getting truly bizarre now

Liberal politicians who are reported under the undue influence of Communist China

are now attacking our own Security Intelligence Service as being "unlawful"

Beijing-friendly Liberal politician calls for public inquiry into 'unlawful' CSIS

Critics of Beijing say Michael Chan’s statement on CSIS comes amid an effort to foster an aura of racism around the foreign-interference issue

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/michael-chan-csis

 

[Queenmandy85]

While I don't deny that China has been very astute in its foreign policy over the last few decades, I am also concerned that CSIS has members who are leaking classified documents. If CSIS has become politicized, Chinese infiltration is not our only problem. CSIS, like the Police, the military and the professional civil service are supposed to be apolitical / non-partisan. It is perilous to have CSIS taking a political stand. They are tasked with gathering intelligence and providing the information to Government. It is the Government's job to decide what to do with it, not CSIS. 

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

While I don't deny that China has been very astute in its foreign policy over the last few decades, I am also concerned that CSIS has members who are leaking classified documents. If CSIS has become politicized, Chinese infiltration is not our only problem. CSIS, like the Police, the military and the professional civil service are supposed to be apolitical / non-partisan. It is perilous to have CSIS taking a political stand. They are tasked with gathering intelligence and providing the information to Government. It is the Government's job to decide what to do with it, not CSIS. 

whose interests do you think CSIS has been acting in support of then ?

[Goddess]

7 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

If CSIS has become politicized, Chinese infiltration is not our only problem.

I'm not convinced that the leaked info means CSIS has become politicized.

CSIS' job is to protect our country, our democracy.

I find the TIMING of the leaks interesting and this is just my observation - CSIS testified at the EA commission that they did not find the Ottawa freedom convoy to be a threat to national security or to democracy.  Trudeau ignored them, as he had been ignoring their warnings on China for years.  Trudeau used the Act against Canadian citizens against their advice and even went further by freezing private citizen bank accounts.  Then these leaks about Chinese interference came out.....

Could it be that CSIS is concerned that the greatest threat to our country and our democracy is.......Trudeau?

Their mandate is not to protect the Prime Minister.  It's to protect the country and our freedoms.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

Could it be that CSIS is concerned that the greatest threat to our country and our democracy is.......Trudeau?

what the Trucker's said

the military, police, security services, and Freedom Convoy, are all coming into alignment now

we have been infiltrated by Chinese Communist totalitarian influence, at the highest levels

come all you bold Canadians, rally round the colours

in the face of a hostile foreign power overthrowing our very way of life

[eyeball]

30 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Getting hit by a car may bring you into closer contact with it, but its' not the same as driving it.

We're discussing how to make a difference to the political parties and what they put forward. So that's something very different and you can have an effect there

I'm talking about the difference between the governed and their governments and what sort of effect turning the Telescreens around would have.

Quote

there's politics in all governance, so either your kind of pulling our leg or you're trying to split hairs.

Sure there's politics in it, even thing's as mundane as building setbacks and in-law suites can make people go apoplectic.  

Quote

And the liberals have shown us just how bad things can get if you have politics without governance.

They're far better at showing us how bad things can get when their power isn't governed.  

Quote

In any case we're talking about political parties and shaping and making them work. And clearly you have not been involved with that process. Trying to pass off working with them from the outside as the same thing is simply not real.

Some of you might be talking about that but I'm talking about something more fundamental. 

Quote

If you're unhappy with your political options then ACTUALLY get involved. You CAN make a big difference. If you don't then  you have to live with whatever scraps others leave for you and for some people that works out just fine, but it doesn't sound like it's working for you.

Anyone else how often this political triteness gets dropped in discussions around our governance?

Quote

I know that it takes time and nobody has any today but it is important that you do your bit for democracy. Democracy is a hell of a lot more than just showing up to vote once every 4 years or so. For the people to govern, the people have to govern.  And that means participating.

I have been participating in governing just in a different capacity.  

And lately I've been struck by what a few other posters have pointed out especially Queenmandy, that as citizens in a constitutional monarchy we don't really live in a democracy per se, instead we live in a...responsibility.   

So in that sense I've taken responsibility for helping to govern our country by going to the sorts of meetings over local by-laws governing subdivisions, building setbacks and such that would make most people snore and avoid ever going to. Interestingly enough I've seen a lot of the same faces over the years - takes a bit of dedication to participate I guess.

I entirely agree that participation is the responsible way to govern ourselves. In my case I prefer to act locally while thinking globally.  In 40 years as a volunteer I don't recall ever being in a closed door in-camera meeting - I've been closed out of the very odd meeting of directors but BC's Local Government Act doesn't seem to require closed door meetings at my level of participation.  I've certainly noticed how a director level of governance/participation how a call for an in-camera meeting can cause a bit of consternation amongst a mistrustful and at times misinformed public.

[Dougie93]

10 minutes ago, eyeball said:

And lately I've been struck by what a few other posters have pointed out especially Queenmandy, that as citizens in a constitutional monarchy we don't really live in a democracy per se, instead we live in a...responsibility.   .

we don't live in a democracy

a democracy is the tyranny of the majority

the constitutional monarchy was founded by William Prince of Orange

to protect the rights of individuals against the rule of a mob

otherwise expressed as "His Majesty defends the right"

the right to be a Orangeman, House of Orange, the founding of the modern liberal state itself

the responsibility is to defend that Glorious Revolution, by way of Regiment, Colours & Commander-in-Chief

Dileas

 

[CdnFox]

9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I'm talking about the difference between the governed and their governments and what sort of effect turning the Telescreens around would have.

No, you're just deflecting. You didn't like the fact that in all sincerity i told you how to resolve some of the concerns you had about our political parties and rather than address that you PRETENDED you were involved and then it turned out you weren't.

9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Some of you might be talking about that but I'm talking about something more fundamental. 

No, you're just changing the channel because the idea that you need to do more to make positive change did not fit your narrative.

9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

 

I have been participating in governing just in a different capacity.  

No, that is NOT how it works. That's like buying something at the grocery store and then claiming you've helped run the grocery store, just in a 'different capacity'.  What you're saying is you are NOT INVOLVED AT ALL.

And my point is that if you don't like what's out there for political choice - then you need to get involved.

9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

And lately I've been struck by what a few other posters have pointed out especially Queenmandy, that as citizens in a constitutional monarchy we don't really live in a democracy per se, instead we live in a...responsibility.   

democracy IS a responsibility.  And no we don't live in a democracy, we live in a constitutional or respresentational democracy. Thank god - a true democracy would be horrible.  So it's an even BIGGER responsibility.

9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

So in that sense I've taken responsibility for helping to govern our country by going to the sorts of meetings over local by-laws Blah blah nonsense nonsense,..

No. That's not even close. Sorry. 

You cannot conflate the business of gov't with the formation of gov't. They have nothing to do with each other. So what you're saying is YOU HAVE NOT PARTICIPATED AT ALL other than to vote (and i'm assuming you vote, maybe you don't even do that much).

What i'm saying is that if you genuinely don't like your choices, you need to participate. That's the duty that comes with democratic representation.

You can't complain about dinner if you refuse to help plan the meal or cook.

9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I entirely agree that participation is the responsible way to govern ourselves. In my case I prefer to act locally while thinking globally.

That is not how it works. That may well do some good for something somewhere or have value outside of politics but if that's what you've done then YOU ARE NOT INVOLVED IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS IN THE SLIGHTEST.

So get involved.