Russian Army collapsing - the unsurprising failure of a police-state

[Nationalist]

5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Because they win and get everything they want if everyone stands aside.  It's rewarding aggression/bullying/imperialism any way you want to call it.  

When you say this:

You're not really being truthful.  "They won't because they don't have to" is junk logic because we can turn it right back around.  Ukraine doesn't have to stop resisting because they don't have to.  We don't have to stop supporting them because we don't have to.  Coool.  

Sure I am. Is Russia losing? No. Have they gained almost all the ground they're after? Yes. Is Ukraine now attacking inside Russia? Yes. And with that, they will p1ss off the Russian people even more.

You can support anyone you choose. But don't tell people the Ukraine is winning. They are not and cannot win. Even if NATO now comes to the rescue, the Ukraine loses. It would become a battlefield and be completely destroyed. 

Is that what you wanna see?

Edited June 20, 2023 by Nationalist

[Moonbox]

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Sure I am. Is Russia losing? No.  Have they gained almost all the ground they're after? Yes.

Did they take Kiev?  No.  Did they take Kharkiv?  No.  Did they lose Kherson city?  Yes.  Did they declare the annexation of both Kherson and Zaporizha Oblasts, despite not controlling large parts of the provinces?  Yes.  

Russia's changing goalposts in response to their setbacks is the only way you frame this as a winning.  

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

You can support anyone you choose. But don't tell people the Ukraine is winning. They are not and cannot win. Even if NATO now comes to the rescue, the Ukraine loses. It would become a battlefield and be completely destroyed. 

Is that what you wanna see?

If you don't want Ukraine to be destroyed, maybe focus on the dictator who's destroying it?  "I want peace (by giving a murderous tyrant everything he wants)" is nonsensical.    

[Nationalist]

58 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Did they take Kiev?  No.  Did they take Kharkiv?  No.  Did they lose Kherson city?  Yes.  Did they declare the annexation of both Kherson and Zaporizha Oblasts, despite not controlling large parts of the provinces?  Yes.  

Russia's changing goalposts in response to their setbacks is the only way you frame this as a winning.  

If you don't want Ukraine to be destroyed, maybe focus on the dictator who's destroying it?  "I want peace (by giving a murderous tyrant everything he wants)" is nonsensical.    

Yet your solution is...to throw ever male Ukraine has, at the Russians?

BTW...Right at the time Ukraine and Russia were discussing peace in Turkey, the Russians were beginning to pull away from Kiev and swing back to the eastern regions. Then the Brits showed up and poof...no more peace talks.

[Aristides]

58 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Yet your solution is...to throw ever male Ukraine has, at the Russians?

BTW...Right at the time Ukraine and Russia were discussing peace in Turkey, the Russians were beginning to pull away from Kiev and swing back to the eastern regions. Then the Brits showed up and poof...no more peace talks.

Fighting to the last Russian seem to be Putin's solution. This is a war he started, he can end it just as easily.

Enough of the faux concern for Ukrainians, all you want is Russian victory.

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

Fighting to the last Russian seem to be Putin's solution. This is a war he started, he can end it just as easily.

Enough of the faux concern for Ukrainians, all you want is Russian victory.

You're a twit. A shallow little twit. Do you engage your brain when you post? Or is everything just set out neatly for you by the folks who've lied to you countless times over the last few years?

[Moonbox]

22 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Yet your solution is...to throw ever male Ukraine has, at the Russians?

As Aristides said, it was Russia throwing conscripts and convicts into the meatgrinder in Bakhmut.  It's Russia throwing missiles and Iranian garbage tech into civilian infrastructure.  It was Russia who (almost certainly) destroyed the dam.  

22 hours ago, Nationalist said:

BTW...Right at the time Ukraine and Russia were discussing peace in Turkey, the Russians were beginning to pull away from Kiev and swing back to the eastern regions. Then the Brits showed up and poof...no more peace talks.

The Russians were driven away from Kiev after being thrashed and embarrassed.  The only people that believe that Putin's claims of peace talks were genuine are the same ones that are slurping the Kremlin's propaganda.  

[Nationalist]

7 hours ago, Moonbox said:

As Aristides said, it was Russia throwing conscripts and convicts into the meatgrinder in Bakhmut.  It's Russia throwing missiles and Iranian garbage tech into civilian infrastructure.  It was Russia who (almost certainly) destroyed the dam.  

The Russians were driven away from Kiev after being thrashed and embarrassed.  The only people that believe that Putin's claims of peace talks were genuine are the same ones that are slurping the Kremlin's propaganda.  

"(almost certainly)" giggle...

So the NYT, CNN, WAPO, and all the rest were/are "slurping the Kremlin's propaganda"?

Strange...

[Moonbox]

5 hours ago, Nationalist said:

"(almost certainly)" giggle...

So the NYT, CNN, WAPO, and all the rest were/are "slurping the Kremlin's propaganda"?

Strange...

Can't really say, but we can safely assume that whatever links you could provide that you think confirm Moscow's narrative don't actually do so.  

We can agree that Boris Johnson went to Ukraine, and then Ukraine wasn't interested in any potential peace deal that might have been on the table.  Beyond that you're just filling in the blanks the way the clownweb is encouraging you to.  

[Nationalist]

9 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Can't really say, but we can safely assume that whatever links you could provide that you think confirm Moscow's narrative don't actually do so.  

We can agree that Boris Johnson went to Ukraine, and then Ukraine wasn't interested in any potential peace deal that might have been on the table.  Beyond that you're just filling in the blanks the way the clownweb is encouraging you to.  

Exactly! Boris messed up his hair, flew over to Kiev and killed the peace deal.

Gee...that's been working out so well for the Ukraine. Thousands more dead, destruction of their infrastructure and a slow loss of land.

The only benefit is to Blackrock and companies like it.

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Exactly! Boris messed up his hair, flew over to Kiev and killed the peace deal.

The only thing you’re right about is the chronology of events.  The cause and effect relationship is where you don’t have much supporting your viewpoint.

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Gee...that's been working out so well for the Ukraine. Thousands more dead, destruction of their infrastructure and a slow loss of land.

The only benefit is to Blackrock and companies like it.

Blackrock Blackrock WEF Klaus Schwab Bill and Melinda Gates George Soros.  

Edited June 22, 2023 by Moonbox

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

The only thing you’re right about is the chronology of events.  The cause and effect relationship is where you don’t have much supporting your viewpoint.

Blackrock Blackrock WEF Klaus Schwab Bill and Melinda Gates George Soros.  

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/09/02/diplomacy-watch-why-did-the-west-stop-a-peace-deal-in-ukraine/

 

Now they are selling out their nation's infrastructure, just like the Central European nations have done.

[BeaverFever]

On 6/19/2023 at 11:06 PM, Nationalist said:

How does it help anyone?

Seriously?

Imagine if you saw a woman being raped and and said “hey I’m neutral I’m not getting involved”. That benefits the rapist. I
 

Russia is clearly the aggressor and in the wrong. They are violating international law and committing war crimes. You are jot allowed to invade sovereign nations and seize their territory under ANY circumstances. If they are allowed to keep even an inch of Ukrainian territory you are rewarding their crime

 

 

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Seriously?

Imagine if you saw a woman being raped and and said “hey I’m neutral I’m not getting involved”. That benefits the rapist. I
 

Russia is clearly the aggressor and in the wrong. They are violating international law and committing war crimes. You are jot allowed to invade sovereign nations and seize their territory under ANY circumstances. If they are allowed to keep even an inch of Ukrainian territory you are rewarding their crime

 

 

Well Beave...it looks like the Wagner Group has gotten tired and is trying to establish a coup in Russia. It'll be interesting to watch this play out.

[BeaverFever]

45 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Well Beave...it looks like the Wagner Group has gotten tired and is trying to establish a coup in Russia. It'll be interesting to watch this play out.

You must be sorry to see the inevitable and completely predictable collapse of Putin’s regime which is a direct result of his disastrous and unnecessary invasion. 
 

Theres no way Putin survives this politically. Even if he somehow magically gets an immediate peace treaty in Ukraine and defeats Wagner he’ll be left too weak to maintain his grip on power and someone else will knock him off.  
 

Coming soon: Chechen independence, possibly other states like Dagestan to follow. 

Edited June 24, 2023 by BeaverFever

[Legato]

Wagner inches closer to Moscow as Putin vows to stop ‘rebellion’.....

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/06/24/russia-ukraine-war-news-wagner-prigozhin/

 

[Guest]

25000 troops sure doesn't seem like enough to win a Russian civil war.

Even if they are well trained and battle hardened.

[Michael Hardner]

12 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

25000 troops sure doesn't seem like enough to win a Russian civil war.

Even if they are well trained and battle hardened.

Unsubstantiated source as they are 6 hours from moscow. The question is how well is Moscow defended right now? They don't have to invade the entire Russian federation, but conceivably could strike at the capitol.

 

Or all of this could just be b*******.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Unsubstantiated source as they are 6 hours from moscow. The question is how well is Moscow defended right now? They don't have to invade the entire Russian federation, but conceivably could strike at the capitol.

 

Or all of this could just be b*******.

It would be nice if they managed to kill Putin.

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 6/19/2023 at 7:29 PM, Nationalist said:

Sure i did. I hoped you get everything you've been asking for. A nice war to cheer on...from your living room.

What I don't get, is this burning need of yours to make sure everyone choose a side. I have no side. Neither do you...unless you're Ukrainian or Russian. I could care less who "wins". As far as I'm concerned, we all lose. Too bad you can't understand that.

But when Russia attacked Ukraine assigned land...I looked at the numbers and the situation and knew then, that without direct NATO involvement, the Ukrainians just lost the eastern provinces. And I'll tell you this too. IMO...the Ukrainians will lose Odesa too if they push this.

I have a side and it’s Ukraine because I’m also on the side of liberty and civilization.  

[PIK]

CNN..Biden talking to close allies, Canada wasn't mentioned.

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

It would be nice if they managed to kill Putin.

So a more extreme and more erratic leader is put in his place? The world doesn't want an unstable Russia. 

Its like poking a pittbull with a stick, starving it for 3 days, then on the final day, opening its cage, and releasing it to the world.

It's like those feeling Sadam Husseins fall was good for the world. When you take out a gang leader, you've created a power vacuum many will be fighting for.

Anyone thinking this is good, is crazy.

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, PIK said:

CNN..Biden talking to close allies, Canada wasn't mentioned.

The key allies in this conflict are in Europe - Germany, UK, Scandinavia, the Baltic states, Poland - because it’s a European war. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

So a more extreme and more erratic leader is put in his place? The world doesn't want an unstable Russia. 

Its like poking a pittbull with a stick, starving it for 3 days, then on the final day, opening its cage, and releasing it to the world.

It's like those feeling Sadam Husseins fall was good for the world. When you take out a gang leader, you've created a power vacuum many will be fighting for.

Anyone thinking this is good, is crazy.

Yeah. 

It would still be enormous fun though.

Edited June 24, 2023 by bcsapper

[PIK]

26 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

So a more extreme and more erratic leader is put in his place? The world doesn't want an unstable Russia. 

Its like poking a pittbull with a stick, starving it for 3 days, then on the final day, opening its cage, and releasing it to the world.

It's like those feeling Sadam Husseins fall was good for the world. When you take out a gang leader, you've created a power vacuum many will be fighting for.

Anyone thinking this is good, is crazy.

Who's to say it didn't help. He and his sons were out of control and needed to be stopped. Who how bad it could have become if they weren't. But what did screw things up was Paul Bremer dissolving the army ,instead of sending them back to the barracks. 

[Perspektiv]

2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

It would still be enormous fun though.

Sure, if world stability means little to you. Many could not care about Ukraine, for the simple fact the conflict has been contained within their borders.

Now this has spilled into Russia. Lose control there with the weapons that they have does not bode well with Ukraine.

Russia hasn't used nukes as they know the consequences for doing so. Crazy is putting someone who doesn't care about those consequences at the helm.