Canada Must Exit Climate Agreement Immediately

[West]

Just now, myata said:

Gas doubled because of Putin, not carbon tax. So you want to write off Putin too? Sure the extent of denial is not limited by anything, facts or reason. But what will you do when Putin comes to you? Who will fight for you? Or maybe you will find compromises, common grounds and ideals? So much for the "freedom". That freedom means only be free of the reality, shut the doors and not hear anything - until it comes knocking and shaking. Ostrich's freedom.

You pass anything you don't understand as a "conspiracy theory". 

Again, I'm only telling you what THEY said. Just because you are living in denial about following a group of dictators who you believe have your best interest at heart (they don't) doesn't mean you should shoot the messenger. 

[myata]

3 minutes ago, West said:

Just because you are living in denial about following a group of dictators

No I don't like groups of dictators. Only noticing that your thinking and approaching real problems is almost identical to theirs. If it doesn't suit your agenda, they better not exist.

[West]

1 minute ago, myata said:

No I don't like groups of dictators. Only noticing that your thinking and approaching real problems is almost identical to theirs. If it doesn't suit your agenda, they better not exist.

How so? I don't believe in surveillance states or tying corporations investment to their "woke" score where they must follow liberal causes or no investment 

[myata]

1 minute ago, West said:

How so?

Climate change due to human activity is supported by science. Woke etc can have their selfish interests but their involvement cannot deny the science, as in the idiot parable. The right approach would be the intelligent one: to separate real problems from self-serving interests. Woke appropriating climate effort wouldn't end well - there will be fewer if any effective solutions, marching to Greta's rallies doesn't do anything to the rising temperatures; and denying the fact is no better. Only two dead ends, and we the humanity seem to be firmly bent on one or the other. I would ask Heavens to intervene but they couldn't. It's us who are bizarre and irrational and for that no miracle could help.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, West said:

It's not a conspiracy theory... he said it. 

Dennis Meadows - never heard of him - is at threat of murdering 6 billion ? 

Jeez I hope he's on the WANTED LIST ?

[West]

8 minutes ago, myata said:

Climate change due to human activity is supported by science. Woke etc can have their selfish interests but their involvement cannot deny the science, as in the idiot parable. The right approach would be the intelligent one: to separate real problems from self-serving interests. Woke appropriating climate effort wouldn't end well - there will be fewer if any effective solutions, marching to Greta's rallies doesn't do anything to the rising temperatures; and denying the fact is no better. Only two dead ends, and we the humanity seem to be firmly bent on one or the other. I would ask Heavens to intervene but they couldn't. It's us who are bizarre and irrational and for that no miracle could help.

I dunno.. 

Yesterday I was reading a tweet from an outspoken liberal psychiatrist in Saskatchewan who was pushing the masks pretty hard throughout the pandemic. So hard in fact people were being chastised for not masking outdoors and received hefty fines for gathering outdoors during the pandemic. 

Last night she finally got around to admitting after another on of her woke "doctor" buddies posted a virtuous photo of himself maskless at the pride parade that, in fact, the virus doesn't transmit outdoors. 

I hope they finally go all the way and admit what we all know, that is casually walking past somebody at the shopping mall gives you 0% chance of transmission and that indoor masking is just as ineffective. 

Anyway all that to say I won't blindly "trust the science" after Covid as "the science" how become an excuse for maglomaniacs to make themselves feel important

Edited June 20, 2022 by West

[Dougie93]

10 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Before Canadians start going bankrupt by the thousands, it’s time for Canada to end all carbon taxes, stop spending money funding endless war in Ukraine, and pull out of international agreements that are hemorrhaging more money from taxpayers and adding to both our debt and inflation.  Turn off the shrill climate scare.  Build the pipelines.  We need more oil for energy security and the affordability of essentials like heating, transportation, and, manufacturing.

first the masses have to go bankrupt in the crash

only then can there be political change

revanchist counterrevolution against the treasonous elites only comes when the markets crash into depression

Edited June 20, 2022 by Dougie93

[West]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Dennis Meadows - never heard of him - is at threat of murdering 6 billion ? 

Jeez I hope he's on the WANTED LIST ?

Lol.. he's the guy who writes the majority of sustainable development literature. 

If you haven't heard of him how are we supposed to have a legitimate debate on the merits?

[Michael Hardner]

28 minutes ago, West said:

?.. 

These whackos are the ones influencing policy. 

Right, not like Corporate America, the NRA and the religious right are influencing policy.  

Is there a condition that is blinder than BLIND ?

[myata]

10 minutes ago, West said:

Last night she finally got around to admitting after another on of her woke "doctor" buddies posted a virtuous photo of himself maskless at the pride parade that, in fact, the virus doesn't transmit outdoors. 

As said, any number of people will try to appropriate certain problems. Some are selfish will try to use them to their advantage; others not intelligent; others still go with the flow. For many it'll become religion, ideology or even subconscious behavior like young folks I see in the park in masks.

None of that means that the problem itself does not exist. Covid virus has been isolated, it does cause severe reaction in some folks. Global temperatures have been consistently rising in clear correlation with human activity. If we as species want a chance somehow we will need to learn behaving and acting intelligently, that is finding ways to understand and solve problems we're facing, not dancing in support or denial, that sure does nothing to solve anything.

Edited June 20, 2022 by myata

[Zeitgeist]

44 minutes ago, myata said:

Gas doubled because of Putin, not carbon tax. So you want to write off Putin too? Sure the extent of denial is not limited by anything, facts or reason. But what will you do when Putin comes to you? Who will fight for you? Or maybe you will find compromises, common grounds and ideals? So much for the "freedom". That freedom means only be free of the reality, shut the doors and not hear anything - until it comes knocking and shaking. Ostrich's freedom.

The main reason for inflation, the vast majority of economists agree, was the high government spending during the pandemic.  It flooded the market with liquidity and high demand as supply chain stoppages and worker shortages reduced supply, driving up costs.  Also, Biden poured cold water on Keystone and other domestic pipeline development and fracking.  Under Trump US energy production was high and Putin and the Saudis kept supply high and oil prices low, which absolutely reduces transportation, heating, electricity, and other costs.  Now countries are beholden to Putin with less North American oil production.  In fact, Canada’s dubious freezing of Russian assets has kept a massive oil supply pump locked in Canada that would’ve increased oil supply to Germany and Western Europe.  This is called shooting ourselves in the foot.  

Edited June 20, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

This is called shooting ourselves in the foot.  

we've been here before

whenever the correction comes

the worry will suddenly shift from runaway inflation

to how to stop a deflationary wage & price spiral

this is so much bigger than nothing burger Canada

the global markets will all crash at once

Canada is merely a passenger

Roaring Twenties 2.0

[West]

12 minutes ago, myata said:

As said, any number of people will try to appropriate certain problems. Some are selfish will try to use them to their advantage; others not intelligent; others still go with the flow. For many it'll become religion, ideology or even subconscious behavior like young folks I see in the park in masks.

None of that means that the problem itself does not exist. Covid virus has been isolated, it does cause severe reaction in some folks. Global temperatures have been consistently rising in clear correlation with human activity. If we as species want a chance somehow we will need to learn behaving and acting intelligently, that is finding ways to understand and solve problems we're facing, not dancing in support or denial, that sure does nothing to solve anything.

Maybe but I think you are leaving out the fact that the self serving policies are being implemented as laws. 

[Army Guy]

7 hours ago, August1991 said:

I strongly disagree.

A tax on carbon dioxide emissions is a premium on an insurance policy. 

And what have these carbon taxes accomplished to date, please provide a source where our carbon emissions have gone down " by carbon taxes alone. please explain how your argument that carbon taxes are an insurance policy? 

[Dougie93]

Canada will remain a leftist lunatic la-la-land

until the Normies get wiped out by a global financial & economic catastrophe

in the near term however, the central banks will balk at relevant tightening

demand destruction is causing a recession, thus the central banks will go back to easing in the face of it

first it melts up, gasoline on the fire, then it melts down, when the bond markets spiral out of control of the central banks

then there will be a beggar thy neighbour global protectionist trade war, Smoot-Hawley knows

[Zeitgeist]

Nothing will have a greater impact on reducing human made climate change than technology and the natural drop in the human population resulting from increased urbanization and education.  Today’s older adults, the Baby Boomer children of young post-WW2 couples, will have died off by around 2050.  All of the CO2 that’s already in the atmosphere can only be removed by plant absorption and collection systems that will drive some of it underground.

We can tree plant, paint buildings and streets white to reflect heat back out to space, and we can create a new energy grid over time to supply EVs and other needs, mostly through nuclear power.  That will take time but we’ll get there.  Driving up the cost of living is not the way to get there, because it will harm and kill humanity. Don’t worry about Earth/Gaia.  She will persist beyond humanity.  We need reasonable solutions that are affordable, such as building solar systems into roofs and the building code, having local slow poke reactors, using deep water cooling, wind, etc., with better batteries and capacitors.

Carbon taxes are taxes on existence.  Shutting down fossil fuel production without an affordable alternative just put humanity far more at risk of poverty and invasion. Those are bigger, more immediate concerns than indications of climate change that may to a large extent be the result of natural cycles and sunspot activities.  We don’t know where we are in relation to the ice ages. That’s not to say we shouldn’t try to reduce human made climate change, but humans have always adapted to natural disasters and migrated.  We’re better equipped to adapt now than ever in the past.  The key is moderation.  I think we should be very wary of the impacts of unelected international central planners and corporate leaders on the poor and the integrity of liberal-democracy.  

Edited June 20, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[myata]

47 minutes ago, West said:

Maybe but I think you are leaving out the fact that the self serving policies are being implemented as laws. 

Maybe this is because we (I mean general public) are much easier convinced to dance for or against, rather than ask questions, check for ourselves, demand reasons, argumented justification, transparency and results?

20 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

And what have these carbon taxes accomplished to date, please provide a source where our carbon emissions have gone down " by carbon taxes alone.

And this goes exactly to the point. What would be the point of implementing a most genial, promising policy if we have no way of knowing whether it works or not? So that another government, some decades on, would cancel it and start the cycle anew as happened and more than once? Maybe how we look for solutions, and who we are is to blame for the absence or mediocre results, not the problems?

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Carbon taxes are taxes on existence.

the impetus for a tax on everything is a product of the money printing

the BoC prints money to fund the government, it's a silent tax, debasing your dollars rather than collecting them

but even that doesn't cover the ever expanding costs of the leftist la-la-land sacred cows

debased dollars don't pay for as much as they used to

Justin & Jagmeet just printed $400 billion, yet they still need to tap you for additional revenue

in fairness, everything is geopolitics

Canada cannot swim against the tide

Canada cannot tighten in the face of massive easing by the Fed, ECB & BoJ

that would cause the Canadian dollar to rise precipitously against the US dollar

this would kill exports from Ontario to America, integrated market forces

since Ontario decides the elections, this cannot be allowed to happen near term

and besides, as I said, the cure for high prices is low prices

when the whole house of cards collapses into deflationary spiral in the end

embrace the suck, chaos is a ladder

[Goddess]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

 Your carbon tax on gas is 11 cents

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/carbon-tax-increase-today-adds-2-2-cents-to-a-litre-of-gasoline.

The tax rebate for a family of four is $745 in Ontario.  That pays for a lot of gas.

I'm not sure it does any more.

My gas expense doubled this last month and I have never received a rebate even close to $745 before this all began.

I always see the largest rebates for Ontarians, but I don't know anyone out West here that gets a rebate even close to what their extra expense is, so I'm not sure if Ontarians get extra - more than other places in Canada?

It wouldn't surprise me if they did.  It keeps Ontarians thinking the Liberals are the greatest thing ever and then they keep voting Trudeau in, who cares about the rest of Canada, right?  but frankly - nobody else in Canada is benefitting or getting refunded for carbon taxes like Ontario is.

The whole carbon tax/carbon credit thing is a huge scam and money grab for the Liberals, IMO.  Nothing is really being accomplished.  The same companies that went over their carbon credit limits before, just buy extra credits from companies that aren't using all theirs. 

Imposing a carbon tax does not make the weather get better.

[myata]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Now countries are beholden to Putin with less North American oil production.  In fact, Canada’s dubious freezing of Russian assets has kept a massive oil supply pump locked in Canada

Stepping down from the global level to national we are talking about two problems:

1. Failure to find acceptable, reliable and sustainable solutions to transport oil from landlocked sources.

2. Failure to ensure clean and sustainable production of energy so that it doesn't create backlash and obstacles including to p.1.

Both are problems of governance: nothing that cannot be solved with intelligent and sound policies. Instead we have provinces going tooth and nail over pipelines and have potential consumers horrified looking at the pictures of oil sands landscapes. It's nothing to do with fake climate change and global conspiracy. Only our inability to manage our, public matters effectively, intelligently and efficiently.

[Army Guy]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

 Your carbon tax on gas is 11 cents

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/carbon-tax-increase-today-adds-2-2-cents-to-a-litre-of-gasoline.

The tax rebate for a family of four is $745 in Ontario.  That pays for a lot of gas.

You make it sound like we are getting a win fall of cash...

Gasoline, Motive Fuel and Carbon Emitting Product Tax A basic overview of the taxation of gasoline, motive fuel and carbon emitting products (gnb.ca)

The carbon tax on diesel is 15.45 in NB, everything you can see or touch comes in by truck, like food, fuel, travel, etc.. Prices have gone up to pay for increased shipping costs all passed on to the consumer. . There are still a lot of homes still using heating oil,  and a large chunk of NB power generation is done by fossil fuels also subjected to carbon taxes. I'm sure I have missed a bunch as well. 

Every bit of this carbon tax is passed on to the consumer, suddenly 745.00 is not so much when you start adding in all the other costs carbon taxes effects.

Rebates are not the same across the country, NB does not get the same amount as Ontario, so the savings are different per province. 

Climate Action Incentive Payment Amounts for 2021 - Canada.ca

I thought that the carbon taxes were supposed to make the consumer think twice about using fossil fuels, by increasing the price. And in that regard, it is a huge failure, fossil fuel prices have gone through the roof and people are still driving... And there's the question of how effective is carbon taxes at lowering our carbon emissions. perhaps the fact that emissions have increased every year says not very effective. 

 

 

 

[Zeitgeist]

12 minutes ago, myata said:

Stepping down from the global level to national we are talking about two problems:

1. Failure to find acceptable, reliable and sustainable solutions to transport oil from landlocked sources.

2. Failure to ensure clean and sustainable production of energy so that it doesn't create backlash and obstacles including to p.1.

Both are problems of governance: nothing that cannot be solved with intelligent and sound policies. Instead we have provinces going tooth and nail over pipelines and have potential consumers horrified looking at the pictures of oil sands landscapes. It's nothing to do with fake climate change and global conspiracy. Only our inability to manage our, public matters effectively, intelligently and efficiently.

I think government needs to focus on bread and butter domestic issues: high paying jobs, good transportation infrastructure, affordable housing, and so forth.  Keep it simple.  Stay out of foreign affairs unless clear cut suffering can be prevented.  These global initiatives and interventions are mostly costly messes and threats to democracy.

[West]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Nothing will have a greater impact on reducing human made climate change than technology and the natural drop in the human population resulting from increased urbanization and education.  Today’s older adults, the Baby Boomer children of young post-WW2 couples, will have died off by around 2050.  All of the CO2 that’s already in the atmosphere can only be removed by plant absorption and collection systems that will drive some of it underground.

We can tree plant, paint buildings and streets white to reflect heat back out to space, and we can create a new energy grid over time to supply EVs and other needs, mostly through nuclear power.  That will take time but we’ll get there.  Driving up the cost of living is not the way to get there, because it will harm and kill humanity. Don’t worry about Earth/Gaia.  She will persist beyond humanity.  We need reasonable solutions that are affordable, such as building solar systems into roofs and the building code, having local slow poke reactors, using deep water cooling, wind, etc., with better batteries and capacitors.

Carbon taxes are taxes on existence.  Shutting down fossil fuel production without an affordable alternative just put humanity far more at risk of poverty and invasion. Those are bigger, more immediate concerns than indications of climate change that may to a large extent be the result of natural cycles and sunspot activities.  We don’t know where we are in relation to the ice ages. That’s not to say we shouldn’t try to reduce human made climate change, but humans have always adapted to natural disasters and migrated.  We’re better equipped to adapt now than ever in the past.  The key is moderation.  I think we should be very wary of the impacts of unelected international central planners and corporate leaders on the poor and the integrity of liberal-democracy.  

YOU are the carbon they want to get rid of. Your existence is killing something Yada Yada Yada therefore you must turn over your hard earned money to the special people way smarter than you as punishment.

It seems weird but here we are

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

I think government needs to focus on bread and butter domestic issues: high paying jobs, good transportation infrastructure, affordable housing, and so forth.  Keep it simple.

none of that is actually a function of government

to think that the government creates high paying jobs, better infrastructure & affordable housing ?

you are in leftist la-la-land yourself for saying so

where do you think the inflation of the money supply & confiscatory taxation is emanating from ?

you are the architect of your own leftist  lunatic woes, apparenty

keeping it simple would mean curtailing your own proclivity to intervene with taxpayer funded central planning

[Michael Hardner]

20 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

1. You make it sound like we are getting a win fall of cash...

2. Prices have gone up to pay for increased shipping costs all passed on to the consumer. . There are still a lot of homes still using heating oil,  and a large chunk of NB power generation is done by fossil fuels also subjected to carbon taxes. I'm sure I have missed a bunch as well.   Every bit of this carbon tax is passed on to the consumer, suddenly 745.00 is not so much when you start adding in all the other costs carbon taxes effects.

 effective. 

 

 

 

1. That's pretty twisted.  I respond to a post that says Climate Change measures are bankrupting us and you turn it into me saying we are getting a win fall ?  Maybe you should just acknowledge that I responded to some other points and addressed them.

2. Ok - well I gave you some math to check on what the impact is.  The reports I read say that 80% of consumers will be covered by the rebate.