Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.

[TreeBeard]

30 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Never said I was against it.  I'm saying your claim is wrong.

The claim was that people weren’t going to be allowed to drive their ICEs. 
 

The goalposts magically shifted. 

Edited January 8, 2023 by TreeBeard

[herbie]

You'll still be able to buy a Peterbilt. Then you can really own the greenies when you go to Superstore. You can hog 4 parking spots while you're at it.

And don't forget crummies. They'll still make those if you have a big family.

[Boges]

On 1/6/2023 at 7:06 PM, ironstone said:

No doubt there may be cobalt in some of my devices. I wouldn't say I'm worried about where my oil comes from but I would rather have most or all of it from domestic production instead of places like Saudi Arabia.

I use batteries all the time. I have one in my ICE vehicle. It starts my car and I can go about twice as far as the longest range EV at this time. When...or IF they develop an affordable EV with long range and a recharging time measured in minutes(5 mins or less)I just may buy one. I won't seek to ban the sale of EV's as I believe in the freedom to choose. I don't want anyone to ban my ICE vehicle either.

I can't and wouldn't virtue signal about my lifestyle and carbon footprint, whatever it might be. Like many others, I have serious concerns about the mad rush to wind and solar with the benefits to the planet being questionable.

So you'd rather be a slave to gas stations, as opposed to being able to charge your car at home every night and have a full charge every morning. But, maybe, have to wait a half hour for a charge for long distance travel. Which you'll probably be stopping for coffee and a bathroom break anyway. 

Old habits are hard to break, I suppose. 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Boges

[herbie]

Well when Timmies and McDs clue into the writing on the wall and put fast chargers in their lots, you should be able to do that top up charge while you grab a donut & coffee....

(And the guys idling in the drive thrus will be whining the EV owners are getting something free by going inside, and they're not)

[ironstone]

2 hours ago, herbie said:

Well when Timmies and McDs clue into the writing on the wall and put fast chargers in their lots, you should be able to do that top up charge while you grab a donut & coffee....

(And the guys idling in the drive thrus will be whining the EV owners are getting something free by going inside, and they're not)

Those "free" charging stations aren't really free though. Somewhere, somehow, that cost is being passed on to the consumers.

I personally try to avoid drive-throughs precisely because of the idling issue.

Boges said I'm a slave to gas stations. In a sense I might be. But I think it's safe to assume that not every EV owner has fast charging at home. Apartment dwellers are another category altogether. If any EV owner does not have fast charging at home, then they too are slaves to the public charging stations. I want EV's to sell without any taxpayer subsidies too.

[herbie]

You're right in that in this day of merciless bean counters in charge, there'll be a cost invented with all benefits ignored. Just as how banks pulled off charging for machines that get no wages or benefits. Ignore any new business charging stations bring in, concentrate only on the cost....

But for everday home use... you're sleeping for 8 hours a day. That will charge anything at 110V enough for the next days use. And the 240V chargers aren't that expensive and sometimes included in the price of you EV.
Remember, tomorrow morning you have to go to work and back, not drive the family  to WallyWorld. The person who drives more than 30Km to do that isn't typical., he's the oddball.

[OftenWrong]

I hear they take a long time to charge up from flat. I can fill my gas tank in about 5 min.

Some folks won't put their gas in cans, but then again some folk'll.

Can't do that with no lectric vehicle.

also the use of toxic and rare earth metals to replace gas is not much to be proud of. Instead of CO2 you get poison in the landfill.

Same goes with so-called carbon reducing lamps, the CFL's snd LED's. CFL's got toxic mercury, and LEDs got germanium. 

Remember when the compact CFL's came out, and the government said they would enact a program to collect them? Anyone collecting them now?

But hey, once we get that fusion shit going, this stuff will all be easy!

 

[herbie]

You don't run an EV flat dead, just like you don't run out your gas tank until the car stops dead. And i have no idea where you live but you take CFL dogturd lights to the recycle shed like you do the old tube ones these days.

Do you understand that rare earths mean they're not as common as iron or aluminum, not precious like bloody emeralds or diamonds? There's rarer and actually more precious metals in the catalytic converter of your car. And what makes you think germanium and lithium are toxic? Better get rid of your computer then.

As I pointed out many times, quit thinking bumps in the road are impenetrable roadblocks that prevent anyone from going forward.

[Boges]

13 hours ago, ironstone said:

Those "free" charging stations aren't really free though. Somewhere, somehow, that cost is being passed on to the consumers.

I personally try to avoid drive-throughs precisely because of the idling issue.

Boges said I'm a slave to gas stations. In a sense I might be. But I think it's safe to assume that not every EV owner has fast charging at home. Apartment dwellers are another category altogether. If any EV owner does not have fast charging at home, then they too are slaves to the public charging stations. I want EV's to sell without any taxpayer subsidies too.

I will continue to say that EVs aren't for everyone. If you own a Condo or live in an apartment where you can't charge overnight. EV penetration hasn't reached you yet. Ditto with people who's office is a work truck. It's not there yet. But could be. 

You could get a PHEV though. 

It's funny how you worry about the electricity a municipality is spending having a free public Stage 2 charger in a public tourist attraction as if you're paying for it. No, the municipality is offering it as an incentive to go to a said tourist attraction. 

As for Fast-Chargers, I've owned an EV for 2 years and I've used one a grand total of 3 times. Once just to test how it worked. They're mostly for Road Trips and Emergencies. And I've never seen one that's free. 

If you can charge at home and mostly use your care to commute a reliable distance. I don't see how an ICE can beat an EV. 

 

[Boges]

12 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

I hear they take a long time to charge up from flat. I can fill my gas tank in about 5 min.

Some folks won't put their gas in cans, but then again some folk'll.

Can't do that with no lectric vehicle.

also the use of toxic and rare earth metals to replace gas is not much to be proud of. Instead of CO2 you get poison in the landfill.

Same goes with so-called carbon reducing lamps, the CFL's snd LED's. CFL's got toxic mercury, and LEDs got germanium. 

 

God, you're really late to these tired talking points. 

Who's throwing valuable EV batteries into a Landfill without harvesting the valuable metals you decry. Do you just throw your electric waste in the garbage? 

Quote

 

Remember when the compact CFL's came out, and the government said they would enact a program to collect them? Anyone collecting them now?

But hey, once we get that fusion shit going, this stuff will all be easy!

 

Can you even buy CFL's now? LEDs are a far superior technology. 

[Boges]

10 hours ago, herbie said:

You don't run an EV flat dead, just like you don't run out your gas tank until the car stops dead. And i have no idea where you live but you take CFL dogturd lights to the recycle shed like you do the old tube ones these days.

Do you understand that rare earths mean they're not as common as iron or aluminum, not precious like bloody emeralds or diamonds? There's rarer and actually more precious metals in the catalytic converter of your car. And what makes you think germanium and lithium are toxic? Better get rid of your computer then.

As I pointed out many times, quit thinking bumps in the road are impenetrable roadblocks that prevent anyone from going forward.

This is the mentality. 

The same people who decry Lithium mining are the ones begging the Federal government to continue to invest in the Tar Sands.

At least with Battery Development it lessens our reliance on the whole practice of refining, transporting and distributing gasoline. 

[herbie]

Using the labour practices in the Congo as an argument is weak as hell. Buy cobalt somewhere else, like Ontario. I'm sure if Pinochet was still around they'd use that because copper is used in EVs too.

The hypocrisy arises when many of the same crowd belittle those opposed to running pipelines full of actually toxic diluent and bitumen across the wilderness.

The object is to reduce CO2 emissions and BEVs and fuel cells are the only way to do that if you want to keep private vehicles and the entire auto industry.

[OftenWrong]

13 hours ago, Boges said:

God, you're really late to these tired talking points. 

Who's throwing valuable EV batteries into a Landfill without harvesting the valuable metals you decry. Do you just throw your electric waste in the garbage? 

Can you even buy CFL's now? LEDs are a far superior technology. 

Sorry Boges if I'm spoiling your feel-good party. At least I am on topic. LED's contain toxic heavy metals, as I mentioned in my previous tired talking point.

These are issues that are not resolved yet. Much as you'd like them to be glossed over, you just can't polish a turd.

That's why I say to you, I say

bring back the horse...

 

 

[herbie]

Oh FFS learn some chemistry. Heavy means dense and toxic.

LEAD in your current car battery is a toxic heavy metal. Mercury in ancient button batteries was a toxic heavy metal. Chrome on an old bumper is a heavy metal. Lithium is the lightest metal there is and probably someone you know swallows it every day, Cobalt you don't grind up and breathe particles every day, you take minor precautions handling it every day, but you body requires some to function. As with the copper.

As for LEDs what 'heavy metal' is used in those? In any meaningful quantity that could be recycled if even possible.

Stop reaching for straws to grasp, toss us a legit reason not to go EV, remembering that cost and some inconvenience isn't the major concern of most of us. Smart cars would outsell F150s if it was.

[Boges]

9 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Sorry Boges if I'm spoiling your feel-good party. At least I am on topic. LED's contain toxic heavy metals, as I mentioned in my previous tired talking point.

These are issues that are not resolved yet. Much as you'd like them to be glossed over, you just can't polish a turd.

That's why I say to you, I say

bring back the horse...

 

 

Well you're not bringing anything new to the debate. 

You fein concern about the environmental costs of Battery tech yet are perfectly happy driving the absurdly inefficient ICE vehicle until the end of time. 

[OftenWrong]

9 hours ago, herbie said:

As for LEDs what 'heavy metal' is used in those? In any meaningful quantity that could be recycled if even possible.

While I am always happy to educate the ignorant, I am just showing the way. I point to the light, but you gotta go there fella. How about some arsenic, does your body need a little of that? It's all about the amount so when you start to see millions of these things in the landfill, it adds up.

I already told you about the promises about recycling that they quietly let go. Because when these lamps came out, those people who actually know things mentioned it to the gubberment. And the gubberment acknowledged it would set up recycling programs, which they did, for a while.

But now they don't have to. They've got people like Boges.

 

[Boges]

35 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

While I am always happy to educate the ignorant, I am just showing the way. I point to the light, but you gotta go there fella. How about some arsenic, does your body need a little of that? It's all about the amount so when you start to see millions of these things in the landfill, it adds up.

I already told you about the promises about recycling that they quietly let go. Because when these lamps came out, those people who actually know things mentioned it to the gubberment. And the gubberment acknowledged it would set up recycling programs, which they did, for a while.

But now they don't have to. They've got people like Boges.

 

If these metals are so precious and rare, why wouldn't they be recycled and re-used? 

You have people going through recycling every week trying to take the glass and metal we throw away. 

We actually recycle things like glass, cardboard and metals rather well. It's the worthless plastic that we don't do a good job recycling because it's worthless. 

[herbie]

And arsenic isn't a metal....

like I said, give us a practical, legitimate reason.
Not ones along the lines of 'it would take too many trees cut down to bring electricity to rural America' and 'we'd need to send armies halfway around the world to overthrow Sheiks and Princes, thousands would die, we'd need to pay for all the set up, transport and refining of that oil/ We should just keep running our battleships on our own supply of coal'

[OftenWrong]

9 hours ago, Boges said:

If these metals are so precious and rare, why

Because it is too expensive and difficult to extract it from the substrate. Same reason they don't recycle 90% of the crap you so dutifully sort into blue bins every week. They just don't tell you that, so you people can sleep better at night.

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, herbie said:

And arsenic isn't a metal....

like I said, give us a practical, legitimate reason.

As you seem to be the forum spokesman for "us", 'm not here to convince "us" of anything. Just an observation, fella, take it how you will.

Let me know how much arsenic you think you need every day. "We" will take it under advisement.

It's already given that these devices contain small quantities of toxic material. Small quantities times ten million starts to become larger quantities. It's, you know, mathemagical.

Just like back around 30 years ago. I remember entering a grocery store at the time called A & P. When we checked out, they gave us our food in plastic bags. Then of all things they said, from now on there will only be plastic bags. So we were like, wtf? Can you imagine all those plastic bags getting in the landfill and the ocean, seems a bad idea.

But no, you people were all for it then. And your government who assured us, it can be recycled. And also, it can decompose. Remember that one? Probably not. So right now I'm saying you people ("us..."), are being duped again.

[OftenWrong]

Lithium-ion batteries contain metals such as cobalt, nickel, and manganese, which are toxic and can contaminate water supplies and ecosystems if they leach out of landfills. Additionally, fires in landfills or battery-recycling facilities have been attributed to inappropriate disposal of lithium-ion batteries.

 

Environmental impacts of lithium-ion batteries - Wikipedia

[herbie]

You're just doubling down and repeating your reason to object.  You can't eat enough LEDs to harm yourself. Just don't even look at what's in a smoke detector.

And I live in a forestry province in a town where that's pretty much THE only thing here. Why in hell would I ever support flimsy roll all over the place plastic bags? Why they're already conning us with handle-breaks-off "recycler" shopping backs.

The thread is titles Ontario needs to invest in EVs, which it does or it will miss out on it's whole auto sector. China's pounding on the door to deliver them, Elon's lobbying to bring Chinese Teslas, the Vietnamese are already here. We've got everything we need to produce them from ore to assembly lines to the skilled workers to do it

Edited January 12, 2023 by herbie

[Boges]

14 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Because it is too expensive and difficult to extract it from the substrate. Same reason they don't recycle 90% of the crap you so dutifully sort into blue bins every week. They just don't tell you that, so you people can sleep better at night.

Cite that figure. 

[Boges]

13 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Lithium-ion batteries contain metals such as cobalt, nickel, and manganese, which are toxic and can contaminate water supplies and ecosystems if they leach out of landfills. Additionally, fires in landfills or battery-recycling facilities have been attributed to inappropriate disposal of lithium-ion batteries.

 

Environmental impacts of lithium-ion batteries - Wikipedia

LOL at quoting Wikipedia

[Boges]

9 hours ago, herbie said:

The thread is titles Ontario needs to invest in EVs, which it does or it will miss out on it's whole auto sector. China's pounding on the door to deliver them, Elon's lobbying to bring Chinese Teslas, the Vietnamese are already here. We've got everything we need to produce them from ore to assembly lines to the skilled workers to do it

This. Ontario has lots of reserves of the kinds of metals required to make EVs. It's a great opportunity. 

But to this lot, the only acceptable form of transportation is oil derived from the Tar Sands.