Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.

[CdnFox]

6 hours ago, Boges said:

I disagree. We're simply talking about Goals. None of the plans by governments or car companies are binding.

Then why bother.  IF they don't mean anything then don't do it. If they do mean something then we shouldn't be doing it.  Car companies and industry will rely on the declaration and attempt to move in that direction even if the problems haven't been solved. So if they're not serious and it's "Hey, it's just a bit of a goal, we don't MEAN it" then just don't.

6 hours ago, Boges said:

 

They illustrate an intention to move away from ICE vehicles in the next 2 decades. You have to pick a target, or nothing gets done. We're ultimately talking about an environmental measure. 

That is demonstrably not true.  What targets were picked for the introduction of the first hybrids by the gov't. The first EV's? None.  All that happened because of the free market - which is and remains the NUMBER ONE tool for moving things forward. Having the gov't impose an arbitrary goal that is not based in science interferes with that, it doesn't help it.

And it's one thing for the gov't to mandate the implementation of new tech, its' quite another for it to mandate that the tech be invented. There's just too many problems with EV's and the infrastructure right now to ban other solutions, and so the gov't is mandating tech be invented. And what happens is if it can't they go with what they've got even though it's not going to get the job done and that has serious reprocussions.

And spare me the whole 'it's only new vehicles' line. If i can't use an ev for my circumstances and i crash my ice vehicle, i want to relace it with an ice vehicle

6 hours ago, Boges said:

We're in this weird environment with cars right now. You couldn't buy a new car EV or ICE if you wanted. The COVID induced Supply-chain disruption has made getting any New Car difficult. 

I had the fortune of being in the new car market in the Summer of 2020 where we were in a depressed market, so supply, price and interest rates were good. Not the case now.

Sure, and we can suppose that this is a hopefully temporary situation which will correct itself over time. But at the end of the day until the tech works for anyone you should be able to buy both. When the tech gets to the point where EV's make mroe sense for the majority or all people there won't need to be any laws passed, people will just move to them.

[ironstone]

5 hours ago, Boges said:

NEW? BS! 

If you're talking Used, we're not talking Apples to Apples yet. And in this market I suspect you can't get a good used car for that price right now. 

All modern EVs sold now have generous Warranties on the batteries. 

There are still some new cars around that range.

Top 10 Cheapest Cars in Canada: 2022 | AutoTrader.ca

[Perspektiv]

5 hours ago, Boges said:

NEW? BS! 

New, base model. 2022, or 2023. Doesn't matter.

I mean off the top of my head, Nissan, Hyundai and and Kia have nicely equipped base units for under 20K. I could go even way lower (under 15K), but we're talking beautiful cars with nice interiors, so I wouldn't include them here.

I know someone who just bought a 2022 Kia Forte. Base model. Under 20K. Gorgeous interior, sleek vehicle. Reliable, fuel sipper.

Nothing wrong with an electric car.

I just don't see the justification for sinking over 50k in an electric vehicle, when it doesn't do every single thing a gas powered vehicle can do.

If you love the technology as is, all the power to you.

What I don't get, are those trying to shame others to adopt the technology immediately, and when you mention your road trip in one forced you to turn off the AC and roll down the windows, desperately trying to find a gas station as your "creature comforts" just won't cut it if you want to stretch mileage. To them, this is normal. Waiting for 15 minutes to fill up. All normal.

Sorry, not for me (yet).

[herbie]

12 Cheapest New Cars in Canada in 2023

1st go out and try to find a base model of anything, anywhere
2nd. Find one the dealer hasn't marked up over MSRP
3rd enjoy your Chevy Spark or Mitsi Mirage pisspot

The average price people are paying for new cars in Canada is over $45,000

 

[Boges]

13 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

New, base model. 2022, or 2023. Doesn't matter.

I mean off the top of my head, Nissan, Hyundai and and Kia have nicely equipped base units for under 20K. I could go even way lower (under 15K), but we're talking beautiful cars with nice interiors, so I wouldn't include them here.

I know someone who just bought a 2022 Kia Forte. Base model. Under 20K. Gorgeous interior, sleek vehicle. Reliable, fuel sipper.

Maybe 10 years ago. I challenge you to show me a base model compact car that's under $20k

I just Googled the Hyundai Elantra, which is a trendy looking compact car, You can't get one for under 25k. 

The big three have gotten out of the compact car market completely. You basically can only get 4 or 5 compact sedans, all from Asian car makers. 

[Boges]

13 hours ago, ironstone said:

There are still some new cars around that range.

Top 10 Cheapest Cars in Canada: 2022 | AutoTrader.ca

So we're talking base model Sub-compacts? 

You can see my indignation when the comparison is made to a well equipped EV. 

[Boges]

If you have $15k in liquid cash for a car, you'd be much better off buying a 4-year-old used car off a lease or something. But even that's hard in this market. 

My 2014 Hybrid can be found on Auto Trader for almost what I paid for it in 2018. 

[Perspektiv]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

I challenge you to show me a base model compact car that's under $20k

Well, I was told in the thread that a car couldn't be under 20k. I proved that it easily could.

You would have a much better argument in showing that an electric car could compete with this price point, making it an accessible technology vs a pipe dream at best, unless you earn a high salary.

[Boges]

8 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Well, I was told in the thread that a car couldn't be under 20k. I proved that it easily could.

You would have a much better argument in showing that an electric car could compete with this price point, making it an accessible technology vs a pipe dream at best, unless you earn a high salary.

Why would a car company offer a bare-bones base model with such advanced technology as an EV? 

"A New Car" can maybe be had for under 20k but it's nothing special. Imagine getting a car in 20 There's no money in cheap cars anymore, the margins are too thin. 

A dare you to find anything special about this car. 

https://www.chevrolet.ca/byo-vc/client/en/CA/chevrolet/spark/2022/spark/features/capabilities/table?bodyTypeOne=1&driveTypeOne=FWD&engineOne=LV7&section=Highlights&section=Powertrain&styleOne=420663

The true value in the car market is used cars. People still lease cars for 2, 3 or 4 years and because of km limits they're usually in good conditional unlike former rentals. 

Getting a car off a lease is the best value, as opposed to buying a bare bones used car that has none of the frills most modern car owners expect. 

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

"A New Car" can maybe be had for under 20k but it's nothing special.

In your opinion. Quite a few gorgeous cars, which fall just under 20k on the market which are generously equipped. I go by sales numbers. When a "nothing special" car is among the best selling from a brand, your point means little.

1 hour ago, Boges said:

Why would a car company offer a bare-bones base model with such advanced technology as an EV? 

Many people just want a commute car. So myself included, which means we look at practically, decent styling and miles per gallon.

There's a reason the Toyota Corolla is a hot seller. I didn't include it, as it starts at just over your 20k threshold, but again, is generously equipped as is.

Electric car makers cannot compete with these cars, as you get insane reliability, convenience and practicality.

There are no what ifs with a Corolla. Remove those, and the EV segment will take off on its own.

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

There are no what ifs with a Corolla. Remove those, and the EV segment will take off on its own.

This probably sums up 90 percent of the entire argument right there. You buy a corolla, you spend a lot less (which buys a lot of gas), you know exactly what the repairs are going to be like and the life of the components, you know you'll get parts everywhere, you know you can get GAS everywhere, you get most of the features anyone could want and it'll have solid resale value.

Aside from my truck I bought a corrolla that was 1  year old a couple years back for 19,000.  It's got heated seats, radar cruise control (love that the most) automatic everything, driver assist so it stays between the lines on it's own on the road, big info display that works with iphones and android, comfortable to drive, has shifter paddles for SOME damn reason, and is reliable as hell and fantastic on gas. I average about 18-19 km per litre in the summer (mostly highway for me obviously). I don't need to drive that often so for me about 50 bucks of fuel does me for the month.

Why would i want to swap that for non-mature teck, questionable battery life and winter performance, questionable charging availability, higher cost and a host of unknowns in order to try to save on 50 dollars a month? It wouldn't be worth it if fuel doubled and i was spending 100.

Now - for someone in different circumstances driving to work every day in the city which is less efficient on gas and spending 400 bucks a month on fuel... maybe it's worth the risk for them.

[Boges]

23 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

In your opinion. Quite a few gorgeous cars, which fall just under 20k on the market which are generously equipped. I go by sales numbers. When a "nothing special" car is among the best selling from a brand, your point means little.

You think a Kia Rio or a Chevy Spark are gorgeous cars? Even if you thought this, they certainly aren't "generously" equipped at that price point. 

Quote

Many people just want a commute car. So myself included, which means we look at practically, decent styling and miles per gallon.

Then they'd be much better off to buy a better quality 5+ year old car than get into a loan for a shitbox car. 

 

Quote

There's a reason the Toyota Corolla is a hot seller. I didn't include it, as it starts at just over your 20k threshold, but again, is generously equipped as is.

Again no one has ever said the Toyota Corolla is a Gorgeous car. 

Quote

Electric car makers cannot compete with these cars, as you get insane reliability, convenience and practicality.

They aren't in the same category of cars. 

 

[herbie]

Aside from the fact that part of the reason EVs were slow to take off was because they were CARS.
Nobody buys those anymore. If you're so budget your looking for sub $20K cars, none of the makers really even wants your business. I wouldn't sell you my 9 year old Wrangler for $20K

[Perspektiv]

31 minutes ago, herbie said:

none of the makers really even wants your business.

Thats why they aren't adopted by more people.

If I want to buy an 80k car, there isn't an electric one that would match the interior and exterior of the range of cars I could buy which are gas powered.

[ironstone]

10 hours ago, Boges said:

So we're talking base model Sub-compacts? 

You can see my indignation when the comparison is made to a well equipped EV. 

Some of them were compacts, not subcompacts to be accurate. And some are great, like the Corolla?

Everyone has their preferences in cars. For me, I just want something very reliable as I tend to keep my cars a long time. I also value something with decent range and a power source that won't degrade if I refuel or charge it too fast.

So, to summarize, there are in fact some brand new cars in and around the 20 grand range. Base models yes. What EV's are available in that price range at this time?

[herbie]

Ever been in a Tesla? Like riding inside a Macbook.
But it's still a car. Look up the sales figures of just cars - compacts, subs, sedans. I bet EVs make up more than their fair share. Bet more F150s sell than traditional cars these days.

Nobody lists by % per segment.

[Perspektiv]

33 minutes ago, herbie said:

Ever been in a Tesla?

I have been in quite a variety of electric vehicles.

From cars, to SUVs etc.

The ride is whisper quiet. There is no issue with the ride, once you get over the lack of sound feedback when you input gears other than reverse, which most EVs I have driven, would have their own distinct sound then.

It will be easy to convince people once they get this experience.

What makes it hard, are the series of what ifs that still surround this technology.

Buy a reputed and reliable car, and there are none. 

Cars are much more accessible to the masses, when powered with fuel. 

EVs are the future, but I don't see it happening until driving one becomes the best option.

 

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, herbie said:

Ever been in a Tesla? Like riding inside a Macbook.

But without the battery life ? Ba da bingggg! Tip yer waitresses folks, i'm here all week...

[Perspektiv]

17 hours ago, CdnFox said:

you know exactly what the repairs are going to be like

This is precisely why so many flock to this car, and some of the most reliable gas powered models. 

I can get my car fixed, anywhere. Any shop. True freedom.

Harder to find a Tesla approved dealer, for repairs. Almost impossible in some areas. Car parts wear and need replacement, regardless of what you drive.

Want to do it yourself and buy parts? Good luck with that for some of those parts.

Batteries should last the life of the car, but so should some parts on gas cars which have broken down. If post warranty, your battery replacement could buy you a used car. Brand new, even for some models.

While highly unlikely, eliminating the what ifs, not only has you competing with the bestsellers. You would annihilate them.

[Perspektiv]

10 hours ago, herbie said:

Ever been in a Tesla? Like riding inside a Macbook.

If you had said I phone, I would have eluded it would be best to buy a new one once the battery fails.

Possibly why am seeing so many used Tesla cars for sale in my city.

[Perspektiv]

I just laugh when people virtue signal when they buy EVs to save the planet.

Like I am supposed to want to sacrifice all the things I get easily from my gas car, for a "greater cause".

All while highest polluting countries continue to do so, with no end in sight. Battery technologies mean parts of batteries are unrecoverable. Many battery manufacturers still use "dirty" materials, child labor, to fuel your vehicles, and worse even--some electrical grids still use dirty power to power cities.

Get an EV if its for you. 

Based on sales, its not for most. Governments forcing people to adopt it won't change a thing, until the technology makes sense for the consumers.

[Boges]

13 hours ago, ironstone said:

So, to summarize, there are in fact some brand new cars in and around the 20 grand range. Base models yes. What EV's are available in that price range at this time?

Again why are you not making an Apples to Apples comparison. 

Why would a car company sell its brand new techy car at bare bones prices with bare bones features? 

[Boges]

9 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

EVs are the future, but I don't see it happening until driving one becomes the best option.

If you can afford one and usually drive less than 200 kms a day and have a place to charge it, it is the best option. 

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

If you can afford one and usually drive less than 200 kms a day and have a place to charge it

I can afford one, drive maybe 25KMs daily, max could charge at my house, and I still prefer my gas car. 

Its insanely reliable, I at times need to go to meetings where I can be driving up to 5 hours each trip, and sometimes like to do road trips.

Again, overall it would suit my budget and lifestyle, but there are too many what ifs on my overall needs. 

I want to drive 8 hours to visit family, and the amount of planning to avoid headaches, is not fun to me.

My current car? I just fill the tank, and off I go.

I run low, I fuel up in a couple minutes, and have an additional 6 or so hour drive left.

EVs are a niche market for now. 

Until one of these companies thinks bigger, that's what they will continue to be.

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, Boges said:

Why would a car company sell its brand new techy car at bare bones prices with bare bones features? 

Do you want to sell to the masses, or want to be of the luxury car segment? 

Right now, EVs are mostly in the luxury car segment.

Why would I buy an F150 lightning for more than what I can get the top of the line truck from any other brand for?

Same applies to a Tesla. 

Why would I pay Tesla pricing, for their average interior, when I can buy a gas car at comparable rates with a luxurious interior? 

Lucid saw the error, and made their interiors gorgeous, but I personally find tbe look of the car to be subpar to the car they are trying to dethrone. 

Again, at these price ranges, we are talking Mercedes, BMW, Audi and many other cars which have better looking and sounding offerings.

EV brand owners will need to realize they can't virtue signal their way to sales. They must develop technologies which directly competes with fossil fuels.

Right now, its niche and if this suits these companies all the power to them.