Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.

[herbie]

Here's one for oftenwrong:

"90% of all Teslas ever built are still on the road.
The other 10% made it home."

 

 

 

[Boges]

15 hours ago, herbie said:

Here's one for oftenwrong:

"90% of all Teslas ever built are still on the road.
The other 10% made it home."

The idea that Landfills are going to be full of EV batteries are pretty alarmist. 

Do ICE vehicles end up in the Landfill. Cars are always recycled and batteries are recycled.

[Boges]

I had my first instance of real Range anxiety on the weekend. 

The wife and I were going to see a movie and we pulled an audible to see a more critically acclaimed movie only showing at an indie theatre in Toronto as opposed to Avatar 2. 

By the time we got to the theatre, I have like 57 kms of range and I was 45 kms from home. We tried to find a Stage 2 charger, which we did, but the charger directed you to download an App that didn't exist. 

This is a big problem with EVs. Each public charger requires its own app and its own account. The big players in Canada are ChargePoint and FLO, but there are plenty of others. 

We had two backup plans for Stage 3 chargers on the way home if the battery didn't hold up, but it appeared like the range was holding up with our hyper-miling techniques. That is until we were like 10 kms from home and the range calculator stopped giving a reading as the battery was so low. We ended up making it home with 2% left on the battery. Slightly harrowing but it was a good test of the EV's battery and it passed the test. 

One thing that's different about an EV battery is that it seems more consistent over the course of the batteries charge. The range it shows is largely what you can expect if you continue with the same driving style and conditions. With every ICE car I've ever owned it seemed that the second half of the tank always went quicker than the first, for whatever reason. 

The biggest weakness of the EV is your inability to do something unplanned. Had we known we were going to Toronto I could have charged the car ahead of time. Or we even could have charged  on the way and budgeted that time into our evening. 

There aren't many Stage 3 chargers in the GTA, and I understand why. If you own a home charger you'll never use them. They're emergency measures or something you'll need on a road trip. This is something that'll have to be resolved in the future. 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Boges

[herbie]

None of the EV owners I know ever let it get below 15% - 20%. Even with my two ICE's I make sure at least one has 1/4 of a tank - because the power here goes out for umpteen hours at a time and it's 45 mins to the next town with gas, food and human beings not shivering under a blanket next to the wood stove*.

That's my #1 worry, I see charging stations being rolled out everywhere, but they can't even keep the lights on in this shithole town. I'd be a never let my EV be under 50% person, I might need to sit in it just to keep warm.

*Been watching Youtubes on how to rig a battery to your gas furnace for when there's winter power outages.

[Boges]

3 minutes ago, herbie said:

None of the EV owners I know ever let it get below 15% - 20%. Even with my two ICE's I make sure at least one has 1/4 of a tank - because the power here goes out for umpteen hours at a time and it's 45 mins to the next town with gas, food and human beings not shivering under a blanket next to the wood stove*.

That's my #1 worry, I see charging stations being rolled out everywhere, but they can't even keep the lights on in this shithole town. I'd be a never let my EV be under 50% person, I might need to sit in it just to keep warm.

*Been watching Youtubes on how to rig a battery to your gas furnace for when there's winter power outages.

This was an unplanned event where I needed to. Most people in Urban and Suburban areas in Canada don't really worry about power cuts unless there's severe weather. 

In the future EVs should be able to be used as Generators. If the power does go out, the battery can power a variety of home functions. A single EV battery could keep your lights on for awhile. 

[herbie]

But but but I could get a stinky diesel generator that would sit there useless for 360 days a year for only $2000....

Tell you a tale:
Local kid bought a Chevy Bolt, decided to take it to the minesite to work, it was only 'a little bit' out of the range - he could make it! He didn't. Not wishing to be mocked, he flagged down a logging truck and got a ride back into town.
Called in sick, rounded up a friend the next day and "borrowed" some of the friend's father's equipment -  they drove a one ton work 4x4 and a generator on a trailer the 100 miles or so to his EV and sat there half a day recharging it. The the buddy took the truck and trailer back and he took the EV.
Justification? He wasn't going to pay that jerk that ran the tow truck no $90!!!
Results? Buddy's Dad went ballistic, suspended his son 3 days and made the 2 of them fill the tank on the truck and generator. His Buddy whined how unfair that was to his bar pals, and word got to the mine.... the EV kid got fired from his $80K job.

but he "saved" a $90 that towing charge....

I know the kid, he went to school with mine, had a crush on my daughter. Not the sharpest pencil in the box. She said he was the nicest guy in town, but she wanted a bf that would be more than Red Green 2.0 with a yard full of cars on blocks and a barn full of duct tape.

[Boges]

16 hours ago, herbie said:

But but but I could get a stinky diesel generator that would sit there useless for 360 days a year for only $2000....

Tell you a tale:
Local kid bought a Chevy Bolt, decided to take it to the minesite to work, it was only 'a little bit' out of the range - he could make it! He didn't. Not wishing to be mocked, he flagged down a logging truck and got a ride back into town.
Called in sick, rounded up a friend the next day and "borrowed" some of the friend's father's equipment -  they drove a one ton work 4x4 and a generator on a trailer the 100 miles or so to his EV and sat there half a day recharging it. The the buddy took the truck and trailer back and he took the EV.
Justification? He wasn't going to pay that jerk that ran the tow truck no $90!!!
Results? Buddy's Dad went ballistic, suspended his son 3 days and made the 2 of them fill the tank on the truck and generator. His Buddy whined how unfair that was to his bar pals, and word got to the mine.... the EV kid got fired from his $80K job.

but he "saved" a $90 that towing charge....

I know the kid, he went to school with mine, had a crush on my daughter. Not the sharpest pencil in the box. She said he was the nicest guy in town, but she wanted a bf that would be more than Red Green 2.0 with a yard full of cars on blocks and a barn full of duct tape.

If you let an EV run out of range, you have no choice but to call a tow truck. I did see a tiktok where a guy had a generator in the trunk of his Tesla. Even if you planned to use it. You'd need to spend 3 hours plus charging the car with the Generator. 

If you lack proper planning skills, an EV may not be for you yet. 

[herbie]

I was wondering if everyone knows electric motors are far cheaper to make than ICE, and probably less than the cost of the pollution equipment that must be installed on every ICE (ir catalytic onverter etc), and don't require a transmission either....

[Boges]

18 hours ago, herbie said:

I was wondering if everyone knows electric motors are far cheaper to make than ICE, and probably less than the cost of the pollution equipment that must be installed on every ICE (ir catalytic onverter etc), and don't require a transmission either....

That's why EVs are more fun to drive. Instant energy. You don't have to worry about redlining. 

[ironstone]

22 hours ago, herbie said:

I was wondering if everyone knows electric motors are far cheaper to make than ICE, and probably less than the cost of the pollution equipment that must be installed on every ICE (ir catalytic onverter etc), and don't require a transmission either....

There is still a price gap though.

Here’s a look at how the costs of electric vehicles compare to gas-only cars. The average transaction price for an electric vehicle (EV) is $56,437, according to Kelley Blue Book — roughly $10,000 higher than the overall industry average of $46,329 that includes gas and EVs. In terms of pricing, an EV is equivalent to an entry-level luxury car.

I have to be realistic about it. An EV is probably in my future but hopefully I'll have been long retired by then. And range won't be an issue as I can make the 13km drive to the nearest small town. And hopefully even if I have the slowest possible charger at home the days it takes to recharge won't be a big deal.

[herbie]

Exactly the point. If there's $4000-$5000 less cost to build, and the prices are $10,000 more... the battery is sure as hell doesn't cost them $15,000.

 

[TreeBeard]

On 1/27/2023 at 12:29 PM, herbie said:

Exactly the point. If there's $4000-$5000 less cost to build, and the prices are $10,000 more... the battery is sure as hell doesn't cost them $15,000.

 

You think a manufacturer can switch to building EVs in a seamless fashion where the costs to build are exactly the same as ICEs?  

Did you take into account an increase in capital costs, like building new plants or retrofitting existing plants?  Are the labour costs the same?  Did they need to build, buy and program machines specifically to build EVs?  
 

You can’t build a Ford Focus one day and then flick a switch and start building the hideous E-Mustang thingy the next day with the same people and machinery, can you?

[Boges]

11 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

You think a manufacturer can switch to building EVs in a seamless fashion where the costs to build are exactly the same as ICEs?  

Did you take into account an increase in capital costs, like building new plants or retrofitting existing plants?  Are the labour costs the same?  Did they need to build, buy and program machines specifically to build EVs?  
 

You can’t build a Ford Focus one day and then flick a switch and start building the hideous E-Mustang thingy the next day with the same people and machinery, can you?

A lot of the components are the same. There are EVs that are built on ICE platforms, but as the sector evolves, we're seeing ground up EV manufacturing. 

I think the Tesla skews stats. Currently they're, by far, the #1 EV company but they don't really have the efficiencies built in as a proper Car company like Hyundai or VW. 

[TreeBeard]

1 minute ago, Boges said:

A lot of the components are the same. There are EVs that are built on ICE platforms, but as the sector evolves, we're seeing ground up EV manufacturing. 

I think the Tesla skews stats. Currently they're, by far, the #1 EV company but they don't really have the efficiencies built in as a proper Car company like Hyundai or VW. 

I read that manufacturers aren’t turning much of a profit from EVs though.  So, costs of making EVs seem to be higher and there is an economy of scale that they’re not able to meet currently.  
 

[Boges]

6 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

I read that manufacturers aren’t turning much of a profit from EVs though.  So, costs of making EVs seem to be higher and there is an economy of scale that they’re not able to meet currently.  
 

You'd have to cite that. 

The battery tech is obviously something that will need to evolve for the production costs to come down.

 

[TreeBeard]

27 minutes ago, Boges said:

You'd have to cite that. 

The battery tech is obviously something that will need to evolve for the production costs to come down.

 

General Motors Co. plans to tell investors that the company expects its electric-vehicle program to be profitable in 2025, the same year it’s targeting sales of 1 million battery-powered cars, according to people familiar with the matter.Chief Executive Officer Mary Barra will outline a plan at GM’s Nov. 17 investor day to show how the automaker can cover investments for battery plants and assembly, and build the Ultium battery program’s margins. Executives also plan to detail GM’s push to go from selling just about 44,000 EVs this year in the US -- at a loss -- to profitably becoming one of the nation’s biggest EV producers, said the people, who asked not to be named because the presentation hasn’t been made public.

[Boges]

20 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

General Motors Co. plans to tell investors that the company expects its electric-vehicle program to be profitable in 2025, the same year it’s targeting sales of 1 million battery-powered cars, according to people familiar with the matter.Chief Executive Officer Mary Barra will outline a plan at GM’s Nov. 17 investor day to show how the automaker can cover investments for battery plants and assembly, and build the Ultium battery program’s margins. Executives also plan to detail GM’s push to go from selling just about 44,000 EVs this year in the US -- at a loss -- to profitably becoming one of the nation’s biggest EV producers, said the people, who asked not to be named because the presentation hasn’t been made public.

That seems fair. 

Again, it's not like people are being forced to buy EV anytime in the next 5+ years. 

I'm actually interested in the new Ioniq 5 model, you have to put a deposit down and wait a year. No one is being forced to get an EV. 

With the supply chain, getting any new car is a challenge TBH. 

[TreeBeard]

1 minute ago, Boges said:

That seems fair. 

Again, it's not like people are being forced to buy EV anytime in the next 5+ years. 

I'm actually interested in the new Ioniq 5 model, you have to put a deposit down and wait a year. No one is being forced to get an EV. 

With the supply chain, getting any new car is a challenge TBH. 

My only point was to refute the claim by @herbie that EVs should cost thousands of dollars less than they do based on his dubious math.  
 

EVs are the future, obviously.  I like the Kia Soul EV. Tiny on the outside, huge on the inside!

[OftenWrong]

5 hours ago, Boges said:

The battery tech is obviously something that will need to evolve for

Hey Boges, you ever seen a lithium battery on fire, man?

That is one hot, bright flame...   

 

[TreeBeard]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Hey Boges, you ever seen a lithium battery on fire, man?

That is one hot, bright flame...   

 

Whether my car burns gas, or is electric, I’m not going to sit in it while it burns.  However, the odds of a gas powered car catching on fire are much, much higher than an EV catching on fire.  Sorry to ruin your preconceived notions.   Don’t pay so much attention to the headlines…  dig deeper.  

 

https://www.idtechex.com/en/research-article/ev-fires-less-common-but-more-problematic/25749  A recent study conducted by AutoInsuranceEZ using data from the NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board) showed that electric cars in the US caught fire at a rate of 25.1 per 100,000 sales compared to 1,530 for ICE vehicles and 3,475 for hybrids.

[Boges]

14 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Hey Boges, you ever seen a lithium battery on fire, man?

That is one hot, bright flame...   

Kay. I don't plan on having it light on fire. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Boges

[OftenWrong]

11 hours ago, Boges said:

Kay. I don't plan on having it light on fire. 

Yeah good idea because if you did, you wouldn't be able to put it out. And not just cause you're Boges and don't know how. Nobody can put it out.

This article explains the issue.

What If That Burning Car Has a Lithium-Ion Battery?

And I quote:
"The high-voltage battery in an electric vehicle can catch fire as the result of a crash or because of an internal battery failure. If it does, firefighters, tow operators, and other emergency responders risk electric shock from exposure to the battery’s high-voltage components. A further risk is that damaged battery cells can experience thermal runaway – uncontrolled increases in temperature and pressure – that can cause a battery to ignite and to reignite, sometimes more than once."

The battery keeps re-igniting, because it's a chemical exothermic reaction. Not to mention how the stuff inside is poisonous, and makes hydrogen which will explode.

Second nice thing about EV batteries is if you get them wet, like if water gets into it somehow because it got cracked and punctured. Water + Lithium creates a violent exothermic reaction. You can look it up, Boges. It's called Physics 101. 

In terms of charging, you can expect these car batteries to behave similar to your phone battery. Similar characteristics. They need to be charged at a controlled, usually slow rate. Fast charges can work, but they take their toll on battery life. Too much fast-charging and you're looking at early battery failure. Sometimes they start getting hot. That's when you know the battery is failing.

Just pray she doesn't get too hot and light up because, once that shit starts... oy vatto... you gonna be really crisp bacon man.

It's what they call in Mexico... mucho blastido, amigo.

Edited February 2, 2023 by OftenWrong

[OftenWrong]

On 1/31/2023 at 8:25 PM, TreeBeard said:

Don’t pay so much attention to the headlines…  dig deeper.  

I don't need headlines sonny. My knowledge of battery technology is more than enough. But anything I say is verifiable, and I can provide links to verify them any time to disprove your bull shit.

We heard about lithium battery fires years ago, when that airliner was taken down that had a crate of these batteries in the cargo hold. There have in fact been numerous incidents in transporting batteries. This makes sense, since by transporting you are putting hundreds of them in a container and the chances of one of them being defective is increased. Then all it takes is for one to go off... 2000 degrees is pretty friggin hot, fella.

Since then these things have to be transported under DG regulations. But you wouldn't know about any of that stuff. Planes, transport rules.

You probably weren't even born when this happened. I was reading thi shit when you were still suckin your mommas tits, fella.

[TreeBeard]

14 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I don't need headlines sonny. My knowledge of battery technology is more than enough. But anything I say is verifiable, and I can provide links to verify them any time to disprove your bull shit.

We heard about lithium battery fires years ago, when that airliner was taken down that had a crate of these batteries in the cargo hold. There have in fact been numerous incidents in transporting batteries. This makes sense, since by transporting you are putting hundreds of them in a container and the chances of one of them being defective is increased. Then all it takes is for one to go off... 2000 degrees is pretty friggin hot, fella.

Since then these things have to be transported under DG regulations. But you wouldn't know about any of that stuff. Planes, transport rules.

You probably weren't even born when this happened. I was reading thi shit when you were still suckin your mommas tits, fella.

I don’t really care about how you feel about battery powered cars…. you conveniently ignore the stats (with citation) that said ICE fires are ~50 times more likely to occur than EV fires?

[OftenWrong]

16 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

I don’t really care about how you feel about battery powered cars…. you conveniently ignore the stats (with citation) that said ICE fires are ~50 times more likely to occur than EV fires?

Bwahaha, you and your stats. Yeah, there's so many EV cars now, right? You are pathetic. Do yourself a favour and stop trying to figure stuff out.