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Ontario needs to invest in EVs as a realistic Option.


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54 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

who do you think issues the oermits for that airshow?  And did you see any canadian military planes there?

Sorry but airshows have since their inception been at least partly political and the organizers do listen to 'suggestions' .  

Sounds from other reports like ev's aren't doing that well and people are moving back to plug in hybrids a bit.

Well Toyota and GM were there and they didn't have their EVs front and centre because they're the few manufacturers that aren't really doing much in that segment right now. GM didn't even have the Bolt. I did get to sit in the Hummer EV which is a comically large an impractical car. But still cool. 

Volvo, on the other hand, only had EVs, IIRC. 

Subaru which only has 1 EV model had 2 or 3 versions of it. 

Got to see a Cybertruck as well. 😀

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30 minutes ago, ironstone said:

This segment on Marketplace was pretty interesting. It was kind of funny to see Stephen Guilbeault checking his watch when getting asked questions. I guess he clearly is not used to that.

I think a lot of the Minister's comments were fair. 

What Cold Weather range do they want posted? 0? -10? -40? 

And pricing per KWh is silly. You should pay more for the speed it takes to charge the car. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 8/9/2021 at 10:29 AM, Boges said:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2021/08/09/ontario-is-undermining-its-vision-of-being-an-electric-vehicle-manufacturing-centre.html

DoFo should recognize where the Global winds are blowing. Invest in EV infrastructure an incentivize car-buyers to buy an EV as their next car. 

He risks damaging the Ontario Auto Sector as that's where the Big 3 are moving their focus in the coming years. 

As the Article mentions, Ontario has the Natural resources to help move from Fossil Fuel infrastructure to Battery development and manufacturing. The rest of the country is way ahead of us on this. 

Across the 401 there are OnRoute rest-stop, none have DC Fast Chargers. This is a no-brainer to help make Ontario a more EV friendly market.

Thank you but EV's are an environmental disaster waiting to happen. Worse even than plastics. I personally would gladly purchase a hydrogen powered  vehicle but I will never own an EV.

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On 8/30/2021 at 6:56 AM, Boges said:

That's a load of crap. EVEN if making the battery was that damaging (more damaging than extracting Oil from the Tar Sands?) It's a one time cost. Where an ICE car is polluting at many stages in the fuelling processing the entire lifecycle of the vehicle. 

Hydrogen could work but the infrastructure isn't there and it's comparably as expensive as Gasoline. 

EVs are more appealing because, just about everyone that can afford one, has the capability of charging them at home. 

LOL!! The exact opposite my friend. EV's only appear green because of their relatively low impact at point of use. The environmental infrastructure costs, damages are huge. EV's are an environmental disaster magnitudes greater than plastics. A hydrogen vehicle you could convince to buy, an electric one, never.  

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Talk about timing.....
Did you miss the $15 billion Honda investment in 4 EV plants in Ontario this week?

Besides, stop worrying about batteries. PP knows electicians that can pluck electricity from the sky.

So do I; with wind and solar.

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29 minutes ago, herbie said:

Talk about timing.....
Did you miss the $15 billion Honda investment in 4 EV plants in Ontario this week?

Nope.  What a stunning waste of money.  Bilions wasted to buy someone else a plant that will almost certanly be repurposed to something else by the company who owns it 5 years after it's built and it will have been paid for by Canadians borrowing on our children's future.  It's a frikkin' crime

This is why it's WRONG to be woke.

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Besides, stop worrying about batteries. PP knows electicians that can pluck electricity from the sky.

What would that have to do with batteries? That would be the electricity that goes IN the batteries.

 

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On 4/25/2024 at 2:15 PM, CdnFox said:

This is why it's WRONG to be woke.

Showing how you don't even know what 'woke' is, just a parrot that uses woke, liberal, leftist for anything at all you don't personally like. Now you're applying it using tax dollars and incentives to encourage business development which is exactly what a do-called conservative would do,
And you can't seem to understand a dingle thing anyone posts correctly, sarcasm included.

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4 hours ago, herbie said:

Showing how you don't even know what 'woke' is, just a parrot that uses woke, liberal, leftist for anything at all you don't personally like.

LOL - awww - triggered leftie is triggered :)

Woke fits perfectly fine here. Billions wasted on corporate welfare because 'EV' and "climate change" when it's becoming clear that EV's are not a good solution to fight climate change is pretty woke.

But i understand.  It's not like you can argue with the truth of what i said so you're attacking me for saying 'woke' :)   LOL

4 hours ago, herbie said:

Now you're applying it using tax dollars and incentives to encourage business development which is exactly what a do-called conservative would do,

But they're not encouraging business development at all.  They're buying a company some factory space because they thing that guarnatees they'll make full ev's over the long term. Which is not guaranteed in the slightest. He's doing this to buy some short term jobs in Ontario and to look woke.

If he REALLY wanted to invest in something that was all about jobs and bringing in severe amounts of money and business to Canada he'd have supported the LNG expansions that japan and germany begged us for.   But nope - now the us has expanded theirs and are making money hand over fist. So we did nothing for the environment - we just gave the cash to someone else,

But noooo - we put so many billions into an 'investment' that it will take decades to get it back in tax revenues. 5 billion dollars in cash (not tax breaks) - even with 1000 workers that's going to be a long time before we break even on that.

And the labour unions are already pointing out that many of those jobs may go to foreign workers - which happened with his last big 'investment' with volkswagon.  So it may not even be 1000 canadian jobs at all.

 

Waste money because 'climate' and "EV'.   Woke.

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On 8/9/2021 at 10:29 AM, Boges said:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2021/08/09/ontario-is-undermining-its-vision-of-being-an-electric-vehicle-manufacturing-centre.html

DoFo should recognize where the Global winds are blowing. Invest in EV infrastructure an incentivize car-buyers to buy an EV as their next car. 

He risks damaging the Ontario Auto Sector as that's where the Big 3 are moving their focus in the coming years. 

As the Article mentions, Ontario has the Natural resources to help move from Fossil Fuel infrastructure to Battery development and manufacturing. The rest of the country is way ahead of us on this. 

Across the 401 there are OnRoute rest-stop, none have DC Fast Chargers. This is a no-brainer to help make Ontario a more EV friendly market.

Perhaps but BC and Ontario also lead the country in the purchase of ICE's. In their mad rush to promote EV's federal and provincial governments consistently fail to acknowledge that battery based EV's are an environmental disaster only perceived as green because of their low impact at point of use. The cars are approximately 30% heavier, which effects road and tire wear requiring frequent replacement. The heavy metals in EV's are highly toxic and the recycling infrastructure virtually non-existent. Batteries store energy they don't create it so we still have to generate and distribute all that electricity and in Canada that's primarily done by generating stations running on natural gas. Direct powered EV's are practical only for large cities and repeatable routes. Public transport and trains are good candidates but Canada is a country of space and distances. Even if we ignore the horrendous environmental costs of EV's the simple truth is there impractical and only favored by politicians with a financial interest in the technology. If the federal liberals really want to save the planet they should ban all plastic consumer packaging. Lets bring back paper and glass both of which are 100% recyclable and more importantly environmentally inert.

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  • 4 weeks later...
Posted (edited)
On 4/24/2024 at 11:35 PM, paradox34 said:

Thank you but EV's are an environmental disaster waiting to happen. Worse even than plastics. I personally would gladly purchase a hydrogen powered  vehicle but I will never own an EV.

A Hydrogen car is an EV. It can just charge using Hydrogen. 

Unless Hydrogen is made with renewable technology it's somewhat pointless. 

Edited by Boges
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Posted (edited)
On 4/27/2024 at 10:57 PM, paradox34 said:

Batteries store energy they don't create it so we still have to generate and distribute all that electricity and in Canada that's primarily done by generating stations running on natural gas.

Except when it's not. Hydro? Nuclear? Renewables? 

And even if using Natural Gas, that's infinitely better than the Petroleum gas industry first drilling, then refining, then transporting gas to a station on your closest street corner. 

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Direct powered EV's are practical only for large cities and repeatable routes. 

Which is a sizable chunk of the patterns people with private vehicles use. More than 2/3 of my driving is a long commute to work. 

 

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Even if we ignore the horrendous environmental costs of EV's the simple truth is there impractical and only favored by politicians with a financial interest in the technology.

So far all you got is the metal used to make the batteries. Manufacturers are starting to develop Sodium Ion batteries. But even so, mining for Lithium: Bad! Refining Bitumen: Good! 

Edited by Boges
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Sodium batteries are great for large storage options. Wind, solar and tidal alternatives would benefit from those. So would ships and large commercial and construction vehicles.
Lithium is lighter, so still preferable for regular vehicles. Although sodium ones could be fully charged in as little as 15 minutes, the weight reduces range and the trade off point has not been discovered.
Add on only the Chinese are producing a car with sodium batteries and you won't get to buy them. Not with 105% tariffs.
The Chinese subsidized BYD $3 billion to produce EVs, that's bad. The US subsidized GM $34 billion that's good. Canada just shelled out tens of billions too.

But even if someone makes an EV that goes 500 miles and recharges in 15 minutes and sells for $25.000, the same guys are gonna complain it doesn't go 1000 miles and fill up in 3 minutes and doesn't cost $10,000 so it's no good.

 

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12 minutes ago, herbie said:

Sodium batteries are great for large storage options. Wind, solar and tidal alternatives would benefit from those. So would ships and large commercial and construction vehicles.
Lithium is lighter, so still preferable for regular vehicles. Although sodium ones could be fully charged in as little as 15 minutes, the weight reduces range and the trade off point has not been discovered.
Add on only the Chinese are producing a car with sodium batteries and you won't get to buy them. Not with 105% tariffs.
The Chinese subsidized BYD $3 billion to produce EVs, that's bad. The US subsidized GM $34 billion that's good. Canada just shelled out tens of billions too.

But even if someone makes an EV that goes 500 miles and recharges in 15 minutes and sells for $25.000, the same guys are gonna complain it doesn't go 1000 miles and fill up in 3 minutes and doesn't cost $10,000 so it's no good.

 

Well of course almost all of that is completely ridiculous. And we can see that that's true because you choose at the very end to already attempt to excuse your failures. Oh there's no point in trying because they'll just complain anyway!!! (snif!)

If you build an EV That eliminated the majority of the problems we see with the current generation and was affordable, it would fly off of the shelves.

Trying to diminish the problems by pretending that the problems aren't the problem but rather the people complaining about the problems are the problem is why people don't trust the left when it comes to ev's.

The problems are real. Solve them and there's no problem. Don't solve them and there's a problem. How hard is that?

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22 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Well of course almost all of that is completely ridiculous. And we can see that that's true because you choose at the very end to already attempt to excuse your failures. Oh there's no point in trying because they'll just complain anyway!!! (snif!)

If you build an EV That eliminated the majority of the problems we see with the current generation and was affordable, it would fly off of the shelves.

Trying to diminish the problems by pretending that the problems aren't the problem but rather the people complaining about the problems are the problem is why people don't trust the left when it comes to ev's.

The problems are real. Solve them and there's no problem. Don't solve them and there's a problem. How hard is that?

So we have a relatively new car like the Hyundai Ioniq 5. 

https://ev-database.org/car/1663/Hyundai-IONIQ-5-Long-Range-AWD

It can get 400-500 kms of range. Its battery is only 77 kwh, meaning at a Stage 3 charger it'll only take 15-20 minutes to go to 80%. Now it's upwards of $50-60k. That's a lot but not nearly as high as other EVs. So we're pretty close, considering we still have a decade to go before this feared date when New ICE cars will be banned. 

The problems that need to be solved are the infrastructure around charging. It's a chicken or egg thing. I'm noticing free chargers are often used when I go out now. When I needed to use a stage 3 charger recently I had to wait 15 minutes to get it and while waiting someone came and asked me when I'd be done. It was a single charger in a busy area that was in high demand, Flo should probably have another installed. 

So we're reaching the tipping point where charging infrastructure needs to ramp up to meet expected demand, not current demand. 

The reason I started this thread was because of the onRoutes in Ontario. These Truck stops along major highways that cater to people on road trips. They didn't have EV chargers a few years ago, now they do and they work pretty well. I used them last fall on the way to Montreal.

Progress has been made, but we need to make the next step. 

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1 hour ago, Boges said:

So we have a relatively new car like the Hyundai Ioniq 5. 

https://ev-database.org/car/1663/Hyundai-IONIQ-5-Long-Range-AWDIt can get 400-500 kms of range. Its battery is only 77 kwh, meaning at a Stage 3 charger it'll only take 15-20 minutes to go to 80%.

Soooo  it takes longer than 15 minutes and you don't get a full charge, and you need a stage 3 to achieve that which means no charging at home or the like.
 

So right off the bat we're talking about a vehicle that fails the criteria.  And that's new out of the box. And that was some pretty generous criteria

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Now it's upwards of $50-60k.

So it's also double the price.

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The problems that need to be solved are the infrastructure around charging.

No, it isn't. The cost is too high. The charging is too long. The cost of replacing batteries is too expensive. You cannot extend the range by putting a fuel Can in the back Like you can with a truck or the like.

It is far less efficient and easy for most people than an ice vehicle. I can recharge my ice vehicle and get 700 km in under 3 minutes. And that is a full charge. My ice vehicle is a nice little vehicle that cost me about $25,000 so half the price before tax. My ice vehicle is cheap and easy to maintain and if for some reason I need to replace the gas tank it's not that expensive. And if I need to extend the range of the vehicle I could just carry extra gas.

Even if we had Stage 3 charging stations at every single gas station that exists right now, which there isn't, and even if we had the power grid capable of delivering the power necessary to each of those gas stations, which we don't, and even if we had the potential to generate that much energy, which we can't, it would still be a worse choice for most people.

This is a simple fact. This isn't a debatable thing. It is far less convenient and far more problematic for a working mother to come home after driving to and from work having to grab the kids and run around and do some shopping and get them to their cub scouts or hockey games realize that she needs to get some electricity and is stuck for Half an hour to do it.

Pretending that that's not the case is just a lie.

The technology is not there. Honestly it's not even close yet. It will be useful to some people in certain niche markets and that's it. Until new technology is developed that can resolve the issues and allow truly quick charging, affordability, and better practicality than it will be nothing but a niche product

I'm sorry, that's just the way it is

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16 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Soooo  it takes longer than 15 minutes and you don't get a full charge, and you need a stage 3 to achieve that which means no charging at home or the like.

At this points it's only practical for someone with a garage and personal State 2 charger to own an EV. But that's still a massive chunk of the market for private vehicles. 

 

 

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So it's also double the price.

Double the price of a base model compact. Not exactly comparing apples to apples. 

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No, it isn't. The cost is too high. The charging is too long. The cost of replacing batteries is too expensive. You cannot extend the range by putting a fuel Can in the back Like you can with a truck or the like.

Lots of misinformation there. The charging is not too long if you have home charging, and for roadtrips, 15-20 minutes is hardly a catastrophic inconvenience, especially for the savings in cost. Also all modern EVs come with a very generous battery warranty. Most cherry picked headlines of extraordinary costs to replace a battery are for much older models. EVs also cost far less to run. I can't thing or a reason to get it serviced, other than for tires and brakes. 

 

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It is far less efficient and easy for most people than an ice vehicle. I can recharge my ice vehicle and get 700 km in under 3 minutes. And that is a full charge. My ice vehicle is a nice little vehicle that cost me about $25,000 so half the price before tax. My ice vehicle is cheap and easy to maintain and if for some reason I need to replace the gas tank it's not that expensive. And if I need to extend the range of the vehicle I could just carry extra gas.

700 kms? That's really bad mileage for a modern car. The main reason I went with an EV, other than being able to use the HOV lane was the price of gas. I don't have to pay $1.50+ per litre for gas. And my car wasn't anywhere near $50-60k new. 

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Even if we had Stage 3 charging stations at every single gas station that exists right now, which there isn't, and even if we had the power grid capable of delivering the power necessary to each of those gas stations, which we don't, and even if we had the potential to generate that much energy, which we can't, it would still be a worse choice for most people.

That's simply not true. If you have a garage with a Stage 2 charger, it's a much better option. If you have an apartment and no access to on-street parking, it's probably not the best choice. Which is why I highlighted that charging infrastructure needs to improve for adoption to take the next step. 

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This is a simple fact. This isn't a debatable thing. It is far less convenient and far more problematic for a working mother to come home after driving to and from work having to grab the kids and run around and do some shopping and get them to their cub scouts or hockey games realize that she needs to get some electricity and is stuck for Half an hour to do it.

I'm a working parent, this is not ever a concern. I was able to drive my EV to work and back, pick up my wife, take my son to Lacrosse and pick up my daughter at daycare on the way. You're making stuff up. 

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The technology is not there. Honestly it's not even close yet. It will be useful to some people in certain niche markets and that's it. Until new technology is developed that can resolve the issues and allow truly quick charging, affordability, and better practicality than it will be nothing but a niche product

For someone who's completely inflexible about the alternative sure. In some ways it's way more convenient. I never have to think about what time I should fill up based on the price at the pump or when there may be a lineup because prices are going up the next day. 

And because adoption isn't 100% yet, and there are still moments where the EV isn't the best option, I do have a second Hybrid car available.  Especially since my wife needs to do errands and dropping off kids when I have to commute into the city. But that car is driven maybe 5000 kms a year. The EV is the workhorse in our family. 

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On 5/22/2024 at 3:41 PM, herbie said:

But even if someone makes an EV that goes 500 miles and recharges in 15 minutes and sells for $25.000, the same guys are gonna complain it doesn't go 1000 miles and fill up in 3 minutes and doesn't cost $10,000 so it's no good.

My ICE car can easily drive for close to 6-7 hours.

I mean, why would I want to buy a car that will cost me more, drive for less distance, and not be as convenient to operate?

It makes no sense. Many batteries won't last as long as my engine. 

I maintain it, and many can go for 300K kms, easily. There are decades of proof of this, no less.

There is no proven EV with that level of reliability. Being designed to do it is different than years of proven performance.

Most people don't think about the planet when buying a car. I certainly don't.

I think of what I can afford, what I like, drives like I like it to, and that has a reputation and track record for being reliable and having a high resale value. Also high, are miles per gallon, which is huge to me.

Last thing I want, is to have to plan when I drive. 

Even less, in managing the car. Fuel low. Pull into gas station anywhere. Fuel up within a minute. 

Sorry, but EVs have a very long way to go to properly compete with ICEs. Best to go with hybrids, until the EV technology fully catches up to where it makes sense.

The anxieties are real, and this is coming from someone who has driven top of the line EVs.

Am out in bumf**k nowhere in Mississippi, and I am s**t out of luck if I run out of juice.

I have seen stalled EVs being towed by ICE tow trucks, but funnier to me, is getting in a crash, and the only loaners they have, are ICE cars.

Go to many rental car places, and EVs just don't sell.

You can't just open a McDonald's in Tokyo, and demand people to eat the same menu they do in NYC.

One must listen to the market needs, or better yet, study them, to ensure what you bring to market, meets that demand.

Virtue signaling your way to sales just won't work.

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Hearing some on EVs, reminds me if the star in the gay rom com Bros deriding fans for the box office stinker he was in.

He felt the movie was good enough. Felt homophobia played a part, felt every box was ticked, but didn't for a second consider that maybe the movie sucked. 

Just maybe, most heterosexual couples just won't feel a connection to gay dudes humping all movie so maybe appeal to them?

Reminds me of Putin's: "good enough", describing the vaccine Russia came up with for covid.

Know your market.

Toyota's CEO made a correct bet. EVs are the future. Just not now.

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2 hours ago, Boges said:

At this points it's only practical for someone with a garage and personal State 2 charger to own an EV. But that's still a massive chunk of the market for private vehicles. 

 

well not so fast there big guy. 

A tonne of people who live in the cities live in condos, and theres severe restrictions on having access to a charger there which just get worse the more people own ev's. Most stratas couldn't' provide ev charging for even 25 percent of their population and that's with very expensive upgrades to their electrical and infrastructure system. 

And city use is where it tends to be practical at all. So seeing as that's where the condos are right away your 'massive' hunk is at best a majority, with probably 30-40 percent of people not being able to consider it at this time. 

Then there's the "practicality" of installing chargers.  Well over a thousand dollars in many cases by the time the electrics in the home are brought up to speed. 

And then you're STILL talking about HOURS to charge the thing.  So if you're someone who drives a lot especially at different times that can be an issue. To and from work and then to and from grocery shopping and then drive the kids to band practice, whatever and running around on the weekends,  sure in the summer when the vehicle is brand new it's probably manaegable but it's not actually 'practical'.  And as the batteries age and in colder weather it may be a lot more of a challenge 

3 hours ago, Boges said:

Lots of misinformation there. The charging is not too long if you have home charging, and for roadtrips, 15-20 minutes is hardly a catastrophic inconvenience

You're just not being honest.  Period.  It is too long for many applications and if you've got a 10 hour road trip that  you have to stretch into 12 hours because you have to stop for 30 minutes regularly -  yes that absolutely is a massive deal. Especially with kids. 

It's a lie to pretend otherwise. 

So the misinformation is yours.  Pretending that these problems don't exist is a lie.   I can buy an ice for far less money and save 2 hours. That's a very REAL thing

3 hours ago, Boges said:

700 kms? That's really bad mileage for a modern car.

Really. What size is my fuel tank.  You're being a complete 1diot.  That represents 16.5 km per litre of fuel, if you think that's "really bad" gas milage then you're just a loser who's arguing for the sake of arguing. 

 

3 hours ago, Boges said:

I'm a working parent, this is not ever a concern.

Great but you're not the entire universe, tho you clearly think you are. 

For many it is. 

3 hours ago, Boges said:

For someone who's completely inflexible about the alternative sure

For ANYONE who's HONEST,  sure. 

 

Your entire argument is that serious problems aren't actually problems because 'pixie dust',  and that everyone in the world must live exactly like you do. 

The extra cost, the extra time to charge, the problems with equipping homes with chargers on a large scale, etc etc  - all of those are very real and make ev's an IMPRACTICAL choice for most people. There are without a doubt some who it would be a good choice for and they should buy and own one but at this point i doubt even half could make that choice practically 

The tech is just NOT there.  There are TOO MANY problems with it.  If it was only just one issue then it could probably be dealt with but for most people it is less efficient and less practical financially and in use than an ice vehicle. 

Sorry if that leaves you butthurt but that is the fact and ignoring facts has got this country in trouble for too long now. 

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