Is Canada becoming a Communist state?

[cougar]

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Good is when you or your parents can start their own businesses, and they can get loans from banks based on the merits of their enterprise to do so, etc. 

What are you going on about? Are you talking about the fact that people in socialist countries are trying so hard to get food that they have no time to think about getting drugs? 

You and Blackbird talk about things you know very little about.  You need to have lived under a socialist system to understand.

Neither Marx, Engels or Lenin wrote anywhere that people should be deprived of independence, locked up for their beliefs , mistreated, humiliated, oppressed or left penniless.  The system wasn't meant to be evil.  

This same good system of yours has all the flaws you can think about, but what is bad is immediately classified as socialist.

For your information it wasn't the socialists who raped kids in residential schools, killed off the Indians and dispossessed them of land, killed off most wildlife and continue to do so, left their own people behind in favour of globalist open market agendas benefiting stateless crooks.  It wasn't the socialists who threw all the garbage along the highways and into the forests.  It was you guys!

Who cares about starting a business and getting money from a bank to be in debt indefinitely and spin wheels for years  till there is only one word left in our heads - "money".

We, real people, think about life and the values of relationships, knowledge, ecosystems and all else before money.

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by cougar

[WestCanMan]

24 minutes ago, cougar said:

You and Blackbird talk about things you know very little about.  You need to have lived under a socialist system to understand.

Neither Marx, Engels or Lenin wrote anywhere that people should be deprived of independence, locked up for their beliefs , mistreated, humiliated, oppressed or left penniless.  The system wasn't meant to be evil.  

This same good system of yours has all the flaws you can think about, but what is bad is immediately classified as socialist.

For your information it wasn't the socialists who raped kids in residential schools, killed off the Indians and dispossessed them of land, killed off most wildlife and continue to do so, left their own people behind in favour of globalist open market agendas benefiting stateless crooks.  It wasn't the socialists who threw all the garbage along the highways and into the forests.  It was you guys!

Who cares about starting a business and getting money from a bank to be in debt indefinitely and spin wheels for years  till there is only one word left in our heads - "money".

We, real people, think about life and the values of relationships, knowledge, ecosystems and all else before money.

For your information, it wasn't capitalists who raped kids in residential schools, conquered NA, or did any of those other things that you talked about. It was just humans. Just like Africans did it to other Africans, or Europeans. Just like Asians did it to other Asians or Caucasians or Africans. It's a sad fact of life that people with power are generally shitty. Wake up. Canadians didn't invent this shit and our ancestors of every race had their turns on both sides of the win-loss column.

A rare exception to that rule of powerful people being totally shitty is in Canada, where the first nations still have the choice to try to live in their stone age culture with some level of autonomy plus rights that far exceed the rest of the country, or they have the option to join the modern economy. If mohammed's people would have come to NA first there would be no first nations culture at all. Just muslims, slaves and nameless graves.

 

And now you're hating on banks and money?

FYI all money does is replace the barter system. It greases the wheels of trade, so that you don't have to convert massive amounts of wheat to cars, or ball bearings into haircuts, etc. Here, in moneyland, you contribute to society and there is a value put on that contribution by other citizens who require your goods or services. The value is in cash.

As an example, people like LeBron, who entertain tens of millions of people by doing amazing things that you and I could never do, get a little bit of money from all of them, one way or another, and they're rich. Meanwhile, women in the WNBA who do things that you or I could do with a little effort, make a pittance. There are also some people who choose to do little or nothing, and they just vote for socialists with the hope that Bernie will bring them a comfortable lifestyle with very little effort.

You, silly socialist people, don't understand that all the animals on earth 'work' til they die, just like humans. Retirement is just a human concept: "Old folks can sit around now and let young folks keep this society working".

Did you ever see this before:

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Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up, it knows it must outrun the fastest lion or it will be killed. Every morning in Africa, a lion wakes up, it knows it must run faster than the slowest gazelle, or it will starve. It doesn't matter whether you're the lion or a gazelle – when the sun comes up, you'd better be running.

You can blame banks or whomever you want for the fact that you have to work 'til you die but the only way around it, if you're a socialist, is to be one of the fat cats benefitting from their friendship with Bernie Sanders or Justin Trudeau. There's no legitimate way to earn wealth in socialism.

[cougar]

45 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

 1.  It was just humans.

2.  FYI all money does is replace the barter system. It greases the wheels of trade, so that you don't have to convert massive amounts of wheat to cars, or ball bearings into haircuts, etc.

3.  There's no legitimate way to earn wealth in socialism.

1. - This is what I am saying.  So let's not talk about socialist this and communist that.  It is just people and you will find the same ones all over the place disguised under any forms of leadership.

2. - FYI money has significantly departed from the barter system in the way that now it has no real physical backing.  This is why we can have cyber currencies and all kinds of non tangible "assets" on books.  The reality is there is nothing there.  The concept of "growing money" is pure BS.  You can not get something out of nothing.

3.  Wealth under socialism was measured in knowledge and happiness.   As mentioned before one person can only live on so much land and have 2 properties.  Under the fucked up capitalist system you can buy everything that you do not reasonably need or can reasonably use, only to exercise influence and power on those who were dispossessed and left with nothing.

Edited April 13, 2021 by cougar

[Serpent]

Canada is clearly a socialist country. It seems like every week, I learn about yet another Canadian program, rule or law which I never knew about, that is blatantly socialist.

[WestCanMan]

38 minutes ago, cougar said:

1. - This is what I am saying.  So let's not talk about socialist this and communist that.  It is just people and you will find the same ones all over the place disguised under any forms of leadership.

It's 'big government' vs 'small government'. 

In small gov't you keep most of what you earn and there's more responsibility on you to take care of yourself. There's very little waste in a small gov't economy.

In big gov't everyone gives a huge chunk of what they earn (and that extends up to a ridiculous extent for overachievers) to the government and the government ensures that everyone gets everything they need. There's a ton of waste due to bureaucracy, and there's massive overspending when people like Justin Trudeau give out sole-source contracts to their friends. 

Remember the earlier post about 'people in power behaving badly'? That's what happens in a socialist country, when almost all of the money flows through sticky government fingers.

(Maybe the reason the gov't is cracking down on Christians is because they have their own schools, so Trudeau can't brainwash kids there.) 

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2. - FYI money has significantly departed from the barter system in the way that now it has no real physical backing.  This is why we can have cyber currencies and all kinds of non tangible "assets" on books.  The reality is there is nothing there.  The concept of "growing money" is pure BS.  You can not get something out of nothing.

The reality is that unless you can print your own money without going to jail, money actually has meaning. 

Have you ever sold a bike for cryptocurrency? Do you think that you can get one?

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3.  Wealth under socialism was measured in knowledge and happiness.   As mentioned before one person can only live on so much land and have 2 properties.  Under the fucked up capitalist system you can buy everything that you do not reasonably need or can reasonably use, only to exercise influence and power on those who were dispossessed and left with nothing.

3 house Bernie Sanders concurs.

And what happens when the next Donald Trump gets elected under a socialist system Cougar? Who do you trust with 85% of the money in the country?

What civilians will be exceptional in a country where you have to produce 20x as much as your neighbour to have 1.2x as much to show for it? What does a country that's completely devoid of overachievers look like?

When hunters went out 10,000 years ago and bagged an elk do you think that they gave 10% of the liver to lazy Gronk, who just banged the drums all day? That has never happened, not even before there was money, and it's not supposed to happen now. Gronk went hungry and his lazy progeny suffer the same fate where there's any justice. If they make no money and have 6 kids, their children will be disadvantaged and I don't give a shit. If you care, it's your option to give to charity.

[WestCanMan]

20 minutes ago, Serpent said:

Canada is clearly a socialist country. It seems like every week, I learn about yet another Canadian program, rule or law which I never knew about, that is blatantly socialist.

We're a hair's breadth from being a communist country. The government is no longer our friend and it no longer works for us.

We no longer have a free press, freedom of religion, or freedom of speech and the judicial system is run straight from the PMO. 

[cougar]

40 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

The reality is that unless you can print your own money without going to jail, money actually has meaning. 

Small amounts of money like those needed for one to survive do have a meaning.  Large amounts like those amassed by the multi billionaires have no meaning.   Try to convert one trillion dollars into grain, or oranges, or anything for that matter and see what you will get.  My gut feeling is , you will buy only whatever is available, which, if you then calculate how much you paid per kilogram, will be totally outrageous and proving your money did not have the value it supposedly had.

 

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What does a country that's completely devoid of overachievers look like?

It will look like what you see in nature.  You will either have just enough for what you need, or have nothing and perish in a natural and merciful way.

But, no, you will not have the ability to fuck up the lives of the entire population, oppress thousands or millions of your own species and extirpate all other species.  This will not happen.

[myata]

I agree that the essence of the matter is not the ideology, ism, but disenfranchisement of citizens and detachment of the government that starts to serve its own interests. That can be seen in socialism practically anywhere it was attempted simply because there's many more ways for the government to control the society. But it's not unique of course.

For the detachment of the government there's only one remedy: involved and active citizenry, constantly watching, understanding, and maintaining, cleaning and fixing their democracy. Because no government would run forever working for citizens without their control. And from that point of view Canada is well on the way to a facade democracy run by a bureaucracy primarily for itself. Every and any program begins with the bureaucracy paying to itself for activity and time, rather than the results for the citizens. And understandably, the results are far and scarce to follow. Just as can be observed once again.

[taxme]

On 4/10/2021 at 4:44 AM, myata said:

Ontario's head of "vaccine task force" Ret. Gen. Hillier was getting $20,000 monthly for his efforts. As close to communism as it gets, for some of us.

Our dear comrade so called globalist health official in BC called Bonnie Henry gets paid $360.000 a year to peddle her bull chit on Covid 1984. Queen Bonnie Poo gets to tell us as all as to how we can live, eat, and do things. Looks like communism to me. Every week she dreams up some more new bull chit to try and make our lives even more miserable than what she has done already. She peddles bull chit and people will not question or challenge anything she says or does. Everyone I know believes and does as she demands. Canadian and British Columbia patriotism in this communist country and province has pretty much all but disappeared. 

As far as I am concerned, Canada has already become a communist country. The many freedoms and rights that we once had and enjoyed just over a year ago have been pretty much taken away from us. I am pretty much a prisoner in my own country and now I know how people must feel that live in some communist country. They are not allowed to leave.

Although we are still able to leave this country, the headache of trying to get back into this country is really not worth it. Covid checks and maybe quarantines are waiting for those who return home. Canada does not have a real virus problem. What Canada has is a welfare recipient comrade and globalist politician and political one. Just saying. 

 

[taxme]

On 4/10/2021 at 4:42 AM, blackbird said:

While I don't agree with the anti-vaxers and the anti-Covid crowd, I still believe Canadians have freedom of speech.  This guy Chris Sky has just been put on the no-fly list for being an anti-vaxer, anti-Covid protestor/speaker for exercising his right to freedom speech.  The government appears to be shutting him down and preventing him from travel so he cannot go to protest rallies and speak. This while a convicted terrorist, who killed someone when he was fighting for al Qaida in Afghanistan, received 10.5 million dollars and an apology, is not on the no fly list and is free to fly. This is Trudeau's Canada.  Trudeau did express his admiration for the Chinese Communist system about six years ago.  Are we fast becoming a Communist state?  Could the pandemic and Trudeau government's response be the trigger that removes our fundamental freedoms and establishes Canada as a Communist dictatorship?  Should there be a difference between the way a Communist dictatorship acts and the way a western democracy acts toward people who differ in their beliefs and speech about the pandemic and government response?

https://www.rebelnews.com/chris_sky_lands_on_canadas_no_fly_list?utm_campaign=rr_04_09_2021&utm_medium=email&utm_source=therebel

Canada is well on it's way to become a communist country. The many freedoms and rights that have been taken away from us over some virus flu bug has been a disaster for us all. Many Canadians have been heavily fined because they demanded their freedoms back. Canada is not the old Canada that we once lived in and enjoyed. Canada has become a dictatorial place to live where FUN hardly thrives anymore. Big sports events and concerts and large gatherings and casinos and night clubs have all been shut down to the public. Travel has been hit very hard for those people who like and enjoy travelling. The land border crossing points are still not open after a freakin year to the driving public and it looks like they will not open for months or maybe even years to come. 

No virus in Canadian history has been this so detrimental to our real health and well being and to society and travelling like this convid 1984 has done. All for a non serious virus. Herd immunity would have killed it off if it had been tried. But no, our dear welfare recipient politicians chose to do things the wrong and hard way. Typical of those buffoons. 

Bearded wonder Castro Trudeau does indeed love his communist China and he would love to be able to bring Chinese communism to Canada if allowed to do so. With the many admirers of this communist Castro Trudeau he may well pull it off. After all, we have pretty much lost plenty of our rights and freedoms already. Just take away a few more rights, and voila, we can start saluting the red communist hammer and sickle Chinese flag forever. Hey, don't laugh, it may just happen yet. Hey, we never know, eh? 

[taxme]

On 4/10/2021 at 4:48 AM, Michael Hardner said:

People getting paid a lot by government isn't Communism.

It would appear to me that some of those high paid bureaucrats and politicians appear to be acting like a bunch of communist these days thanks to Covid. This Covid virus hoax nonsense has given many of our dear welfare recipient politicians a grand excuse to now deprive Canadians of their many rights and freedoms that is guaranteed by the Charter or Rights and Freedoms and even the Canadian Constitution. 

Canadians have never had so many rights and freedoms taken away from them until this hoax virus came along. What we all took for granted and enjoyed just over a year ago has been pretty much all taken away from us. Fun has pretty much been abolished. Air travel is no FUN anymore and it has become a nightmare. 

I know that you live in a world that all looks good and great and okay and that there is no conspiracy going on anywhere in Canada but there are others who see something different. Some do see a big fake virus conspiracy going on here in Canada. If you are unable to see the communism in all of what is going on in Canada today then maybe it is time for you to you exit your basement cellar and get out there and read and see what is happening. 

I know that you are not a fan of The Rebel and Ezra Levant but maybe you ought to take some time too listen to what Ezra and others on his website have to say and has been saying for months now. We are living in communistic like times here in Canada. Yes, many politicians and bureaucrats are not all communists but many are now. Canada is more communistic like then ever before. Only dimwits and buffoons refuse to see and acknowledge as to what is going on in communist Canada today. Hello? 

[myata]

10 hours ago, taxme said:

Our dear comrade so called globalist health official in BC called Bonnie Henry gets paid $360.000 a year to ...

And that's just not going to stop, cannot find any limit, reasonable or else. If we were paid X yesterday tomorrow it has to be X + 2, simply because we're paying it to ourselves. Only mathematical truth, in the absence of external reality.

Edited April 14, 2021 by myata

[Nefarious Banana]

Bonnie Henry . . . . $360,000.-  annual income.

Couldn't find any verification on this.  

Maybe not looking in the right place ?

[WestCanMan]

13 hours ago, cougar said:

Small amounts of money like those needed for one to survive do have a meaning.  Large amounts like those amassed by the multi billionaires have no meaning.   Try to convert one trillion dollars into grain, or oranges, or anything for that matter and see what you will get.  My gut feeling is , you will buy only whatever is available, which, if you then calculate how much you paid per kilogram, will be totally outrageous and proving your money did not have the value it supposedly had.

Your argument is frivolous.

The topic is about building an extremely complex society and your rebuttal is that some people have too much money as a result...

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It will look like what you see in nature.  You will either have just enough for what you need, or have nothing and perish in a natural and merciful way.

But, no, you will not have the ability to fuck up the lives of the entire population, oppress thousands or millions of your own species and extirpate all other species.  This will not happen.

It will look EXACTLY like what you see in nature - humans living in mud huts and communicating with smoke signals. For once you were right.

[dialamah]

44 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Bonnie Henry . . . . $360,000.-  annual income.

Couldn't find any verification on this.  

Maybe not looking in the right place ?

There's a provincial salary lookup tool, but don't know if it includes Henry's position although it does include ministerial staff.  Here: https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/careers-myhr/all-employees/pay-benefits/salaries/salarylookuptool/management/management-bands.  Sorry, don't really have time to see if she's included in the tool.

[myata]

26 minutes ago, dialamah said:

There's a provincial salary lookup tool, but don't know if it includes Henry's position although it does include ministerial staff.  Here: https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/careers-myhr/all-employees/pay-benefits/salaries/salarylookuptool/management/management-bands.  Sorry, don't really have time to see if she's included in the tool.

There's a link in this thread quoting CBC as the monthly salary of Ontario's vaccine task force head of $20,000. Quite possibly, many of "our frontline heroes" will make less in a year. And private corporations have nothing do with it. This is only a mirror - what we really are vs. want to see and tell ourselves as.

[blackbird]

There are some people who covet the wealth that rich people have and covet their property.  This is Communism or Marxism.  It is a great evil and condemned in the ten commandments in the Bible. (Exodus chapter 20 and in Deuteronomy)  Private property is a God-given right.  So coveting other people's property is directly against what God commanded in the ten commandments.  Coveting and stealing are both wrong.  But I understand some of these people simply cannot see their wrong ways.  I pray for them.  Coveting or thinking one has a right to other people's property is a great evil and cannot lead to anything good.  I would urge them to reconsider their beliefs and read the Bible and consider God who created the world knows everything we think and do.  If they doubt the existence of God, just look around at the amazing creation.  Even such things as the beauty of the wild flowers, wild creatures, and birds demonstrate the power of our Creator.  God is merciful and willing to forgive when people acknowledge their faults and failures and come to him in simple faith in his Son.  That is the only way out of this dilemma and the mental trap they find themselves in.  

Edited April 14, 2021 by blackbird

[myata]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

There are some people who covet the wealth that rich people have and covet their property. 

People getting (very) rich entirely at the public's expense is very common in communism. Interesting paradox...

[cougar]

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Your argument is frivolous.

The topic is about building an extremely complex society and your rebuttal is that some people have too much money as a result...

It will look EXACTLY like what you see in nature - humans living in mud huts and communicating with smoke signals. For once you were right.

You don't seem to comprehend what I am referring to.

Why not find an estimate on the land mass of the USA or Canada which is not yet sold to private entities.  Then calculate a price estimate for that land based on average values for undeveloped land.  Then compare the number to the national debt of the USA or the combined wealth of the top 10% in our population.  I haven't done that, but I am sure you will be in for a big surprise.

===========================================================================================

Edit:   Just pulled out some numbers.  Land mass of USA in acres is 2.43 billion acres.    Average price of land in Texas is $2,972 / acre.

This will make the land under USA, if non has yet been sold, worth about $7.22 trillion .  Currently the US nation debt is over $20 trillion but then keep in mind much of the land mass has already been sold and some will never be sold (unsuitable for anything).

Final conclusion??  I will leave it with you

===========================================================================================

Some humans live in mud huts somewhere as we speak.   Those that do are actually free!  No government can tell them what to do , when and how because they do not depend on money and an inherently flawed system.

Edited April 14, 2021 by cougar

[cougar]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

There are some people who covet the wealth that rich people have and covet their property.  This is Communism or Marxism. 

Can't even continue to read further than this.  Communism and Marxism make people EQUAL.  You can not covet the wealth of another who has exactly what you have!

I suggest you confine your comments to the bible.  Your knowledge there is hopefully better.

[taxme]

3 hours ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Bonnie Henry . . . . $360,000.-  annual income.

Couldn't find any verification on this.  

Maybe not looking in the right place ?

I cannot say for certain as to where I read her salary but I do believe that I heard this on The Rebel. But I will try and find it out for you. Maybe the reason why you cannot find out is that it has been taken down. Just saying. 

[taxme]

52 minutes ago, cougar said:

Can't even continue to read further than this.  Communism and Marxism make people EQUAL.  You can not covet the wealth of another who has exactly what you have!

I suggest you confine your comments to the bible.  Your knowledge there is hopefully better.

Living in a Marxist/communist country does not make everyone equal. It makes the ordinary people equal. It makes the Marxist leadership elite rich. Many of the elite members of any Marxist/communist party in any communist country are pretty much all filthy rich. That is not being equal. Most liberals and democrats are socialist/communist millionaires. Comrade Castro Trudeau being one of those rich millionaires.

Are you a millionaire living in Canada? If not, maybe it is because you are not in the Marxist/communist elite millionaires club. People who have nothing can be convinced that they will do very well living under Marxism/communism and many will go for it. But they will soon find out that they are worse off under Marxism/communism. They have lost all of their freedoms. Sounds and looks like Canada these days, doesn't it. Canadians have pretty much lost all of their freedoms that they once had and enjoyed just over a year ago.

Today, Canada is starting to look and act more like a communist country in the making. Sadly, the majority of Canadians appear to not give much of a chit about that. They appear to have gladly given up their freedoms for health safety nonsense reasons. The wearing of a face diaper mask is a sign of submission by the sheeple to their dear comrade leaders. Even after a whole year of this scamdemic virus madness they still do not get it that they have been screwed with. IMHO, I believe that the majority of Canadians are quite the stupid people. They act like a bunch of zombies. Just saying. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by taxme

[taxme]

42 minutes ago, cougar said:

You don't seem to comprehend what I am referring to.

Why not find an estimate on the land mass of the USA or Canada which is not yet sold to private entities.  Then calculate a price estimate for that land based on average values for undeveloped land.  Then compare the number to the national debt of the USA or the combined wealth of the top 10% in our population.  I haven't done that, but I am sure you will be in for a big surprise.

Some humans live in mud huts somewhere as we speak.   Those that do are actually free!  No government can tell them what to do , when and how because they do not depend on money and an inherently flawed system.

What do you mean by "fighting economic growth" anyway? What is wrong with economic growth? Just asking. 

[WestCanMan]

28 minutes ago, cougar said:

You don't seem to comprehend what I am referring to.

 

Do you? I'm honestly trying to make sense of your position cougar. 

I'm sensing that you feel like you can elect a really trustworthy guy like Bernie Sanders to handle 85% of the money in the country, and that you don't understand that over the course of the next 1,000 years there will be some asshole like Trudeau or Trump elected to have all that power....

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Why not find an estimate on the land mass of the USA or Canada which is not yet sold to private entities.  Then calculate a price estimate for that land based on average values for undeveloped land.  Then compare the number to the national debt of the USA or the combined wealth of the top 10% in our population.  I haven't done that, but I am sure you will be in for a big surprise.

My apologies for assuming that most socialists would care about the environment, but I'm shocked to see that you're advocating for selling off every square inch of the country for development purposes to pay off our debt. Do you want to have 1.4B people here, like they do in China? 

To put things in perspective for my son, I tell him that if we lived in China then for every house there would be 35 houses, and for every highrise there would be 35 high rises, etc.

Either that, or there would be 35x as many cities, towns, farms and villages. 

I don't think most people want that. I don't, and I'm not a communist.

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Some humans live in mud huts somewhere as we speak.   Those that do are actually free!  No government can tell them what to do , when and how because they do not depend on money and an inherently flawed system.

And those people work every day of their lives, harder than you or I do, or they start dying.

There are no Sundays off for them, they don't have cures for things that we would easily survive, they don't have access to culture (music - imagine your life with nothing more than a homemade drum and some untrained voices singing basic chants, like the first nations people here sing....). When they finally get done working they can just do the very basic things that you do when you're camping (aside from listening to music) and they're not capable of much else. Their children are doomed to live the exact same life as they do. They don't get to choose between racing cars, accounting, culinary arts, engineering, athlete, musician, etc - they get to choose between hunter/gatherer and starvation. Yay!

And yes, governments absolutely can tell them what to do, because modernized nations have war machines that they have no hope of defending themselves from. Do you think that they can live like that in Iran, and tell the Ayatollah to fuck off if they want to worship a two-headed alien? Nope, they'll be promptly killed or turned into slaves and their women and children will be enslaved until they accept islam. 

You live in a fantasy world cougar. I wish that I shared in your blissful ignorance but I'm stuck here in reality.

[myata]

52 minutes ago, taxme said:

Are you a millionaire living in Canada? If not, maybe it is because you are not in the Marxist/communist elite millionaires club. People who have nothing can be convinced that they will do very well living under Marxism/communism and many will go for it. But they will soon find out that they are worse off under Marxism/communism. They have lost all of their freedoms. Sounds and looks like Canada these days, doesn't it. Canadians have pretty much lost all of their freedoms that they once had and enjoyed just over a year ago.

I have no problem with millionaires in general. Started your business from scratch, make something that people are willing to buy great for you and great for the country. I have problem though with those millionaires on the public pay, million golden parachute millionaires, hundreds of thousands plus bonuses for the Phoenix system ones and so on. The budget could not and will carry it forever because it's not bottomless while the perception of the bureaucracy of the privilege and entitlements it deserves very much is. So we'll face it at some point and at that point we will have no other ways of delivering services to the public.