Non-confidence

[WestCanMan]

19 hours ago, Grand Mal said:

Best for the country if the Tories are excluded from government.

Yeah because who needs democracy, right? 

Here's a better idea.... Why not exclude the village idiot from government? Who cares if he was the leader of the party that got the most seats?

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, SkyHigh said:

Perceived being the operative word, we have one of the best trained ground forces in the world, and examples like the D.A.R.T unit are recognized around the world for the work they do. Honestly, propped up seems a little strong, we self identify as peace keepers, have no real enemies as we don't try and police the world and geographically are not easy to attack, how much military do we need. Costa Rica has no army, in a higher conflict area and does fine.

 

Canada has treaty obligations under NATO and NORAD.   Your government has been starving the military and veterans benefits for decades, regardless of ruling party.   There is little confidence than even proposed defence procuerments will ever go well.   DART rotted or was delayed at home until heavy airlift was finally purchased...from the Americans (taking USAF production assets).

 

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Again the size of our economy has nothing to do with its independence, also the WTO and other trade bodies tend to find in our favor over the states in many disputes,and we conduct trade deals between other nations without aid from the US, so again implying economic independence.

 

75% of Canadian exports go to the "states".    That is not independence.

 

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Because they're our neighbor and largest(by far) trading partner.

 

Confidence in the Canadian economy is directly tied to the performance of the U.S. economy.   Investment capital  has been leaving Canada as confidence has eroded with the current government for projects, regulation, and taxes.   

 

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[PIK]

19 hours ago, Grand Mal said:

Oh, too bad . Guess I'll go hang myself in the barn.

Canada, by any standards, is one of the best places in the world to live. So much so that a case could be made that anyone who doesn't like living here probably wouldn't like living anywhere.

That said, better a sister in a whore-house than a brother in the Conservative Party.

Sorry but if we keep going in this direction, we will no longer be the best place to live. We need the conservatives to save the country,because the liberals have lost control.

[SkyHigh]

25 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Because the U.S. Fed and CMHC had to keep liquid assets/credit available for the banking system in Canada.  It wasn't a "gift".

Explained here:

Canada Bank Bailout: Yes, There Was One, And Here's Why It's Important To Remember That

 

 

I'll need to read it a little more, but it seems that its talking about Canada buying loans from the bank to have liquidity, and nothing to do with  US intervention.

I am aware that the CMHC did intervene, what that has to do with the states im not sure, but will definitely look into it.

My goal is always to know what is true, and not win an argument.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, SkyHigh said:

I'll need to read it a little more, but it seems that its talking about Canada buying loans from the bank to have liquidity, and nothing to do with  US intervention.

I am aware that the CMHC did intervene, what that has to do with the states im not sure, but will definitely look into it.

My goal is always to know what is true, and not win an argument.

 

OK...but the U.S. Fed became the default source for credit and liquidity because it has much more capacity to do so.   World credit markets were melting down and several national banks scrambled to keep credit markets alive.   Canada could not do this on its own (size).

 

[SkyHigh]

8 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Canada has treaty obligations under NATO and NORAD.   Your government has been starving the military and veterans benefits for decades, regardless of ruling party.   There is little confidence than even proposed defence procuerments will ever go well.   DART rotted or was delayed at home until heavy airlift was finally purchased...from the Americans (taking USAF production assets).

 

 

75% of Canadian exports go to the "states".    That is not independence.

 

 

Confidence in the Canadian economy is directly tied to the performance of the U.S. economy.   Investment capital  has been leaving Canada as confidence has eroded with the current government for projects, regulation, and taxes.   

 

 

I'm not sure who you're arguing with, but it's not me

Again, I essentially agree with what your saying

My point was, is and has consistently in almost every interjection I've made on this forum, revolve around the choice of vocabulary employed by many here.

If the comment was phrased as, Canada is over dependant on the states, not only would I tend to agree, this is a valid claim and certainly warrants discussion, but the statement " Canada is propped up by the US, is not a valid(or even sound) claim and warrants nothing but refutation

[SkyHigh]

20 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

OK...but the U.S. Fed became the default source for credit and liquidity because it has much more capacity to do so.   World credit markets were melting down and several national banks scrambled to keep credit markets alive.   Canada could not do this on its own (size).

 

This is again a far cry from the US bailed us out, though in this conversation i realize you haven't made that direct claim others here have.

Please do not confuse me with the average partisan hack on this website, I design my debate style(or at least try) on the Socratic method, meaning if im provided evidence contrary to what i think I not only welcome it but consider it a win much more than "scoring points" for the peanut gallery, I'd muxh rather make myself smarter than make others look stupid. Though often the former is much more difficult than the latter in most cases

Edited February 20, 2020 by SkyHigh

[Moonlight Graham]

3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Easily explained by so much foreign ownership and foreign direct investment, purposely solicited for decades.  

Canada lacks the market size and domestic capital to do otherwise.

Most of the stock I own is American.  Much of the products I buy are American.  Give me a break.  It's been a global economy for hundreds of years.  Slaves from Africa, traded for goods.

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

 

It would be amazing if people listened to it when they needed shelter; it would be lovely if they didn't spit on it.

You can get the RCMP to ban my speech and seize my guns, but you have made a sworn enemy forevermore therein, Canada, may your children go blind.

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Most of the stock I own is American.  Much of the products I buy are American.  Give me a break.  It's been a global economy for hundreds of years.  Slaves from Africa, traded for goods.

 

OK...voting with your own money.

Do you have more "confidence" in the U.S. or Canadian economy ?   Would America still have blockaded rail after two weeks ?

[Moonlight Graham]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

OK...voting with your own money.

Do you have more "confidence" in the U.S. or Canadian economy ?   Would America still have blockaded rail after two weeks ?

I have more confidence in the US economy right now, because the price of oil has affected Canadian stocks.  10 years ago I had more confidence in the Canadian economy, and so did international investors.  Over the longterm both countries have about identical market returns.

[bush_cheney2004]

57 minutes ago, SkyHigh said:

This is again a far cry from the US bailed us out, though in this conversation i realize you haven't made that direct claim others here have.

 

The U.S. Fed became the world's backstop to prevent the total meltdown of banking liquidity, and that includes Canada.   Canada did not have the capacity to do this on its own.    The same relative impact can be seen in IMF ratio funding by nation.

 

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Please do not confuse me with the average partisan hack on this website, I design my debate style(or at least try) on the Socratic method, meaning if im provided evidence contrary to what i think I not only welcome it but consider it a win much more than "scoring points" for the peanut gallery, I'd muxh rather make myself smarter than make others look stupid. Though often the former is much more difficult than the latter in most cases

 

In the narrow and broad context of no-confidence for the current Canadian government, the banking system is one less thing to worry about.    There are several other issues and policies that have put pressure on Trudeau's majority and now minority government....this latest "crisis" just adds more to the list.    Bringing down the government presents additional issues that many don't want to deal with either.

Edited February 20, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[SkyHigh]

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The U.S. Fed became the world's backstop to prevent the total meltdown of banking liquidity, and that includes Canada.   Canada did not have the capacity to do this on its own.    The same relative impact can be seen in IMF ratio funding by nation.

 

 

In the narrow and broad context of no-confidence for the current Canadian government, the banking system is one less thing to worry about.    There are several other issues and policies that have put pressure on Trudeau's majority and now minority government....this latest "crisis" just adds more to the list.    Bringing down the government presents additional issues that many don't want to deal with either.

As per the banks, I don't think we're that far apart. So we can put that aside

As for the current issue( the blockade) the idea of a non confidence motion to deal with it doesn't really make sense(Though I do agree it's a problem) because non confidence motions are generally reserved for thigs pertaining to budgets

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, SkyHigh said:

As for the current issue( the blockade) the idea of a non confidence motion to deal with it doesn't really make sense(Though I do agree it's a problem) because non confidence motions are generally reserved for thigs pertaining to budgets

 

Very unlikely so far, but the mere threat of doing so is offered as additional pressure on Trudeau and his ministers to resolve the issue.

I can't wait to use magical "dialog and patience" as the solution for many other issues discussed on this forum.  

[eyeball]

58 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

How can all 4 of them win it? That doesn't make any sense at all.

 

You don't understand the concept of winning in the context of the competition you pointed out?  Why on Earth doesn't make sense to you? 

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And what "law" are you talking about?

The law of the land, probably a number of them reflecting how common sense evolves over time.  

[SkyHigh]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Very unlikely so far, but the mere threat of doing so is offered as additional pressure on Trudeau and his ministers to resolve the issue.

I can't wait to use magical "dialog and patience" as the solution for many other issues discussed on this forum.  

Agreed pressure must be applied to resolve this, but again bringing it back to vocabulary used, non confidence vote applies to budget matters exclusively and arguing it as a potential solution only wastes time going down a dead end road.

 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I have more confidence in the US economy right now, because the price of oil has affected Canadian stocks.

Only some stocks. 75% of my stocks are Canadian these days because there's too much volatility down south (like today) and because certain types of stocks are outperform even the US techs - like Canadian utilities and REITS, for example, but without the volatility and without the same degree of fear of what the big orange might do to produce a black swan. My 'confidence' in the US economy is thus being restrained by my worry about what an idiot in the white house might do that would wreck things.

[Dougie93]

The NYSE,  NASDAQ & TSX are all propped up by the same global leverage bubble, if it massively corrects, it will all go together

The idea that the TSX is some sort of safe haven is delusional

And besides, corrections are a good thing, buy low, sell high

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

You don't understand the concept of winning in the context of the competition you pointed out?  Why on Earth doesn't make sense to you? 

I understand a lot of things that you don't, one of them being that you're wrong when you say they can all win. I know they were teaching that everyone can win in Kindergarten when you were there, but when you're 30 you'll start to realize that not everything you learned in Kindergarten is always applicable.

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The law of the land, probably a number of them reflecting how common sense evolves over time.  

1) The laws that are on the books now are the ones that need to be followed.

2) Common sense is that when the elected chiefs vote unanimously in favour of something, and the vast majority of the hereditary chiefs vote in favour of it as well, it's a done deal.

3) Common sense and history both tell us that when a small minority try to dictate to the majority, it eventually ends up in violence. Democracies don't function that way. Even autocracies eventually crumble under the pressure. 400 years ago if that small group of chiefs tried to dominate over all the other chiefs like this, they'd get new names like chief split-head and chief arrow gullet. Their stupidity wouldn't have been rewarded like this. 

 

[eyeball]

21 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I understand a lot of things that you don't, one of them being that you're wrong when you say they can all win. 

Then why are we not seeing police move in with batons swinging?

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I know they were teaching that everyone can win in Kindergarten when you were there, but when you're 30 you'll start to realize that not everything you learned in Kindergarten is always applicable.

Well, when the Conservatives are in power again maybe you can remodel our education system to better resemble a Klingon military prep school where snowflakery can be beaten out of kids.  

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1) The laws that are on the books now are the ones that need to be followed.

That's simply an opinion and a wrong one that Ottawa and Victoria tried to follow.

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2) Common sense is that when the elected chiefs vote unanimously in favour of something, and the vast majority of the hereditary chiefs vote in favour of it as well, it's a done deal.

Informed sense is that elected chiefs are at a level below that of hereditary chiefs, this is the law that needs to be followed.

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3) Common sense and history both tell us that when a small minority try to dictate to the majority, it eventually ends up in violence. Democracies don't function that way. Even autocracies eventually crumble under the pressure.

The same is just as true when a majority dictates to a minority.  

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400 years ago if that small group of chiefs tried to dominate over all the other chiefs like this, they'd get new names like chief split-head and chief arrow gullet. Their stupidity wouldn't have been rewarded like this.

Quit dreaming about living in the past and get with the times.  Today that small group has the support of millions of Canadians.  How many heads were you figuring on splitting anyway?  

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by eyeball

[WestCanMan]

20 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Then why are we not seeing police move in with batons swinging?

Well, when the Conservatives are in power again maybe you can remodel our education system to better resemble a Klingon military prep school where snowflakery can be beaten out of kids.  

That's simply an opinion and a wrong one that Ottawa and Victoria tried to follow.

Informed sense is that elected chiefs are at a level below that of hereditary chiefs, this is the law that needs to be followed.

The same is just as true when a majority dictates to a minority.  

Quit dreaming about living in the past and get with the times.  Today that small group has the support of millions of Canadians.  How many heads were you figuring on splitting anyway?  

 

1 - no one said the police needed to beat people, that's just you playing the fool again.

2 - more eyeball idiocy, shocker

3- not an opinion lol. 

4- your informed sense is that unanimous support of elected chiefs and the vast majority of hereditary chiefs is what needs to be followed.

5- no, not at all. That's just stupid. 

6- It's not dreaming of the past, it's also what happens when democracy breaks down. Millions of Canadians don't support it, and even more will be against it once they find out how much this all affects them. A couple hundred idiots support it. The dumbest of the dumb. The cream of the crap.   

[taxme]

On 2/19/2020 at 12:40 PM, betsy said:

People are losing jobs.   Commodities aren't being delivered.  Prices will go up - supply and demand.  Propane is being rationed.   We might even have a shortage of clean water.  And yet, Trudeau wouldn't make any decisive decisions.    Our national security is at stake - this could descend into chaos!

 

Let's face it:  Trudeau is a deer caught in the headlights.   He's frozen stiff!

It's the same thing that happened over his slow response to Canadians in Wuhan.  It seems he's so afraid to make any decisions.

 

Can the Opposition get together and boot out Trudeau over this blockade crisis?  Can they cite non-confidence over his non-existing leadership?

This dear leader of ours does not even give a dam anymore about the two Canadians that were arrested illegally by the communist leader Ping(Mao) of China and have been in jail for almost two years. This guy could probably not even be able run a lemonade stand properly. He would bankrupt his lemonade business in a week. How this guy ever became the leader of this country is quite baffling indeed. I guess that the fools who keep voting for him are also the reason why this guy got back in as the prime mistake of Canada again.

Canada is truly being run by a bunch of leftist liberal socialist bimbos. There can be no doubt about that. Not that the other two so called political party's would do any better. If Canada one day does ever get a real and true conservative leader like Trump, it would be a dam miracle. Canada has become a country where common sense and logic has been removed, and has now been replaced by chaos, and mayhem and tyranny which are the rules of today in the new Canada. 

As you asked, why are the other political party's not calling for a non-confidence vote? It's long overdue alright. But then again, maybe the other party's are all on board with Trudeau on this terrorism going on in Canada today. They no doubt have no idea as to how to solve this terrorism also. Let Trudeau hang himself. Our governments of all levels have pretty much failed the Canadian people. Canada needs an overhaul fast before those fools once and for all make Canada go belly up. There cannot be that much time left for Canada. Just my opinion of course. 

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

1 - no one said the police needed to beat people, that's just you playing the fool again.

You're saying the Conservatives have joined the Greens, NDP and BQ in encouraging Trudeau to direct police to go in and talk nicely?

I'll be looking forward to seeing that on the news tonight.  

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2 - more eyeball idiocy, shocker

How do propose we educate kids to be more hard-boiled and hard-headed about this?  I was running my own business when I was 30 and starting to learn what a trap of mismanagement and political corruption I'd blundered into.  What I really learned was how damaging the effects were of so many lickspittles and lap-dogs bleating about the rule of law and defending government policies they had little to no understanding of.  That was about the time I was learning about the extent of residential abuse and other heinous things the resolution of which was about to steam roller me into near bankruptcy. That little lesson turned me into a hard-boiled hard-headed anarchist.

Yeah, 30 is when I started learning that a lot the crap they taught me about how honourable and good Canada was just that...a whole lot of crap.  When I was in Kindergarten I was in a little crowd of kids waving little flags and singing Canada's praises.  The used that for a commercial on TV as I recall.

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3- not an opinion lol.

The opinion is whether they should be followed not what they are.

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4- your informed sense is that unanimous support of elected chiefs and the vast majority of hereditary chiefs is what needs to be followed.

No, its that hereditary law takes precedence over band council and Indian Act law and especially on unceded lands.

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5- no, not at all. That's just stupid. 

Really. You think history shows that when majorities push minorities around that everything is just rainbows and unicorns? That's just brilliant not to mention why we're in the middle of a crisis.

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6- It's not dreaming of the past, it's also what happens when democracy breaks down. Millions of Canadians don't support it, and even more will be against it once they find out how much this all affects them. A couple hundred idiots support it. The dumbest of the dumb. The cream of the crap.

Millions including very intelligent very educated scientists and economists, real cream in other words, want tangible measurable efforts made to curb greenhouse gases...10 years ago.   This is far far bigger than just a couple hundred people. 

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by eyeball

[WestCanMan]

8 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You're saying the Conservatives have joined the Greens, NDP and BQ in encouraging Trudeau to direct police to go in and talk nicely?

I'll be looking forward to seeing that on the news tonight.  

Pure idiocy, as usual. Your go-to "points" are just your own hypothetical bullshit claims that right wingers are planning to run rough-shod over precious snowflakes who are trying to save the universe.

The police can take people away without beating them up ffs. 

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How do propose we educate kids to be more hard-boiled and hard-headed about this? 

 

How about if we teach kids to think instead of just getting them to learn by rote. That way they won't be sucked in by every chicken little who runs a scam on them. 

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I was running my own business when I was 30 and starting to learn what a trap of mismanagement and political corruption I'd blundered into.  What I really learned was how damaging the effects were of so many lickspittles and lap-dogs bleating about the rule of law and defending government policies they had little to no understanding of.  That was about the time I was learning about the extent of residential abuse and other heinous things the resolution of which was about to steam roller me into near bankruptcy. That little lesson turned me into a hard-boiled hard-headed anarchist.

Riiiight. More utter bullshit.

Our laws aren't perfect, but they're better than the people who are supposed to be following them. 

And don't act like abuse at residential schools was planned by the gov't and the collective will of all of the citizens of Canada. That's just the exact shit that happens when humans have too much power over other humans in the dark. It's a failing of the whole human race, not just our country.

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Yeah, 30 is when I started learning that a lot the crap they taught me about how honourable and good Canada was just that...a whole lot of crap.  When I was in Kindergarten I was in a little crowd of kids waving little flags and singing Canada's praises.  The used that for a commercial on TV as I recall.

Name your perfect culture eyeball. LMAO.

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The opinion is whether they should be followed not what they are.

Of course eyeball. Just make your own laws. You know better than everyone right?

J/K. I've got a million reasons why that's obviously not the case.

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No, its that hereditary law takes precedence over band council and Indian Act law and especially on unceded lands.

So there are some laws that need to be changed. 

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Really. You think history shows that when majorities push minorities around that everything is just rainbows and unicorns? That's just brilliant not to mention why we're in the middle of a crisis.

Obviously no one said that. Learn to read.

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Millions including very intelligent very educated scientists and economists, real cream in other words, want tangible measurable efforts made to curb greenhouse gases...10 years ago.   This is far far bigger than just a couple hundred people. 

Right. Like hockey stick graph boy, who turned out to be full of shit. Or like all the other "scientists" who predicted the earth was freezing, heating, the seas were rising, etc for the past 2,000 years. It's one of the oldest scams in the world. "Send us some virgins or some first-born sons for sacrifice or our crops will fail!"

Do you know how many houses and private jets Al gore, David Suzuki and Leo DiCaprio have between them? The correct answer is that they have so many that they all need to stfu and kiss my magnificent scrotum. 

[eyeball]

46 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Pure idiocy, as usual. Your go-to "points" are just your own hypothetical bullshit claims that right wingers are planning to run rough-shod over precious snowflakes who are trying to save the universe.

The police can take people away without beating them up ffs. 

That's not what the base of Conservative support wants if references to deploying Soylent Green scoops and filling in ditches with protesters are anything to go by.

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How about if we teach kids to think instead of just getting them to learn by rote. That way they won't be sucked in by every chicken little who runs a scam on them.

You mean like when a government lies to kids about how nice their government is?  I was learning that about the same time a couple of friends of mine were being ass-raped at the school they went to.  

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Riiiight. More utter bullshit.

What part, my being in business, the facts of residential school abuse, the reality of rampant partisanship and how it denies corruption (on its side)?  What utter bullshit precisely?

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Our laws aren't perfect, but they're better than the people who are supposed to be following them.

Yeah well the issue at hand was precipitated by lawmakers who don't follow them. 

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And don't act like abuse at residential schools was planned by the gov't and the collective will of all of the citizens of Canada. That's just the exact shit that happens when humans have too much power over other humans in the dark. It's a failing of the whole human race, not just our country.

Whatever else it is/was it shouldn't be given or taken as an excuse to prevent reconciliation.  

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Name your perfect culture eyeball.

The opposite of 1984 where its the government that is subject to our deep surveillance.

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LMAO.

Fuck you too.

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Of course eyeball. Just make your own laws. You know better than everyone right?

No but definitely a whole hell of a lot more than you.

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J/K. I've got a million reasons why that's obviously not the case.

You've got squat. I bet you still think Charles Koch is a lefty.

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So there are some laws that need to be changed.

Good luck opening up the Constitution and returning Canada to the Before Times. 

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Obviously no one said that. Learn to read.

Try following your own advise. I agreed with you that when minorities dictate to majorities it usually leads to violence. I pointed out the opposite is also true and you disagreed. I didn't say you said "You think history shows that when majorities push minorities around that everything is just rainbows and unicorns?" I asked, see the question mark? How many successful peaceful societies can you list where majorities have been dictating to minorities?

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Right. Like hockey stick graph boy, who turned out to be full of shit. Or like all the other "scientists" who predicted the earth was freezing, heating, the seas were rising, etc for the past 2,000 years. It's one of the oldest scams in the world. "Send us some virgins or some first-born sons for sacrifice or our crops will fail!"

Do you know how many houses and private jets Al gore, David Suzuki and Leo DiCaprio have between them? The correct answer is that they have so many that they all need to stfu and kiss my magnificent scrotum. 

 

There it is NOW you're finally being honest about your real sentiments and I have little reason to not believe you're as representative of middle of the road mainstream conservatism as it gets.  No one is fooled the least little bit about the fact conservatives just don't give a shit about exploiting the planet to the brink of disaster and beyond. You guys think its just a funny joke.

Edited February 21, 2020 by eyeball