DogOnPorch Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 10 minutes ago, GostHacked said: You are definitely anti-Islam. And Saudi Arabia is a radical Islamic dictatorship, something I would also think you are against. But I guess I was wrong. 9 minutes ago, GostHacked said: Most of the 9/11 Hijackers, including the mastermind himself Bin Laden,,,, were .. wait for it .. Saudis. I just said I was anti-Saudi Arabia. I am ALSO against uprooting people who have done nothing wrong just because politicians are fighting. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
turningrite Posted August 21, 2018 Author Report Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: 1) Let's just say 'wealthy', why don't we. It's clearer that way. 2) I reject the term 'elites' because it's prejudicial and values-laden. It can mean anything, and often is used as an entry point to an argument that the public is being brainwashed or somesuch. 3) Yes and there is a handy report function for insults. Do you think it's ok to insult people ? 4) Did you know that we fought an election on Free Trade ? Did you know that it's actually popular with people now ? It makes sense for countries to specialize and the economic orthodoxy is pretty straightforward on this. 5) Immigration levels have been increasing, yes, but nothing in 2008 changed the curve from what I can see. 6) Wait - are you saying now that economic stability was the payoff to the people for trade deals... that were bad for people ? I am very confused. 7) Yes, well this makes sense ... economic failure has a political price. 8) Elitist consensus ? How can you have an elitist consensus when the elitist are supposedly 1% ? I don't understand the math. If growth can't continue and economic policies don't deliver, then there is a political price to play. Or maybe the whole thing collapses because it's unsustainable as the Marxists have been predicting. 9) That is why 'progressives' are called 'liberals'... they are not communists, they favour a balance. You should read 'Das Kapital'. (I haven't read it.) 1) Pot(ate)to, pot(ah)to 2) "Elites" is commonplace terminology. 3) I dislike gratuitous personal insults and have ended discussions on here when people engage in such behavior in the absence of any apparent interest in legitimate debate. By and large, though, I apply the "sticks and stones" principle. 4) Free trade was a major issue in the 1988 general election. The party that won, Mulroney's PCs, imposed free trade (the FTA) on the basis of about 43% of the popular vote. Were it a referendum, the proposition would have lost. As for the current situation, prior to Trump's emergence polling suggested Canadians were equivocal about NAFTA's impact but this changed after Trump's election, no doubt influenced by alarmist media coverage that with few exceptions has presented NAFTA as vital to country's well-being. When the elites and their media acolytes tell people to feel very insecure it's amazing how effective the pitch can be. 5) I don't think you read my commentary closely. According to Zakaria's review, what happened in 2008/09 was a collapse in support for capitalism in most of the major Western economies, leading to a populist reaction against a panoply of capitalist policies and pet projects. Canada, however, was identified as notable exception to the populist reaction to the great recession, but not for the reason(s) progressives would likely assume to be the case. If you're going to summarize a point, please be precise and accurate. 6) I have no clue what you're trying to ask or say here as the point seems nonsensical. Again, please clarify. 7) Okay. 8) The elitist consensus is the commonly held economic and political agenda promoted by the economic elites and their political and media servants. It's a pretty commonly understood concept. Please read Noam Chomsky. His work has been around for quite a while. 9) Progressives constitute a faction on the left and centre-left of the ideological spectrum whose adherents promote and support specific kinds of policies, usually grounded in identity causes and/or redistributive logic. In Canada, they tend to support either the Liberal party or the NDP at the federal level. Party affiliation is less important to them than is policy perspective. In the recent Ontario election progressives shifted their support significantly from the discredited Liberals to the NDP, although they didn't shift it to a sufficient degree to permit the NDP to form government, for which many Ontarians are thankful. Edited August 21, 2018 by turningrite Quote
eyeball Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, DogOnPorch said: It's not like Muslim guys are shooting-up the rest of the planet in terror attacks... No, what its like, is that so many Muslim guys come from terrifying places that have been shot up, all too often by us and strongmen we support - which is to also say us, if we're to subscribe to the idea that voters in a democracy are responsible for the actions their governments take, including any taken by the military alliances our governments make. Edited August 21, 2018 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, WestCanMan said: If you're admitting that Trudeau's comments re: Canada having no core identity etc etc went full retard then we can at least agree on one thing. His comments have certainly triggered a lot of full blown retardation. Quote Part 2 though...wow, you must be such a great person because you call other people "racist". I'm an even greater person because I'm not a racist Quote Just kidding, that comment you made was entirely ignorant and inflammatory. It was brilliant actually and hot too apparently given how quickly it inflamed. Quote FYI racism isn't even a part of the discussion, the discussion is about cultural/religious differences. I'll just assume you meant xenophobia and massacre your idiotic argument from that perspective. No I meant the simple sort of ignorant trash one expects from a trailer park where people use confederate flags for drapes. Quote More info for you - "diversity" isn't strength. No, it's reality. Quote Unity is strength. That's retarded. Quote If people come here with the intention of being "Canadians with some ethnic flavour" or whatever you want to call it that's one thing, if people want to come here to still be __________s who just happen to live in this part of the world that's going to create the kinds of problems that Bernier was talking about. There's the trash I was talking about. Quote Trudeau is appealing to the balkanization of our country by his choice of rhetoric. It's fair to say that. It would be even fairer to say that people from the Balkans had to endure this racist trash back in their day too. Edited August 21, 2018 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
betsy Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, scribblet said: Just to say: why do people use that instead of who. Not only that....I think he also told the woman who simply asked legitimate questions, that she doesn't belong in Quebec! Lol. In Trudeau's tupsy-turvy world, if you ask the wrong questions - you're excluded from what must be his stoned-inspired "utopia!" In other words, his "inclusive" world does not extend to the sensible people who's got the balls to ask! He couldn't answer her questions because he doesn't have any answers at all! There is no real plan! So instead, he launches on to attacking her! Pathetic! Edited August 21, 2018 by betsy 1 Quote
Michael Hardner Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 7 hours ago, turningrite said: 1) "Elites" is commonplace terminology. 2) I dislike gratuitous personal insults and have ended discussions on here when people engage in such behavior in the absence of any apparent interest in legitimate debate. By and large, though, I apply the "sticks and stones" principle. 3) Were it a referendum, the proposition would have lost. 4) if you're going to summarize a point, please be precise and accurate. 5) I have no clue what you're trying to ask or say here as the point seems nonsensical. Again, please clarify. 6) The elitist consensus is the commonly held economic and political agenda promoted by the economic elites and their political and media servants. It's a pretty commonly understood concept. Please read Noam Chomsky. His work has been around for quite a while. 7) Progressives constitute a faction on the left and centre-left of the ideological spectrum whose adherents promote and support specific kinds of policies, usually grounded in identity causes and/or redistributive logic. 1) So is 'racist' , 'cuck' and a whole host of insults. 2) Cool. Then if people call you 'racist', you can call them 'elite' I guess. 3) Ok, do you have a cite for that ? I believe you but I myself couldn't find one. 4) Ok. I thought you said something about immigration levels there, but I re-read it and I don't think you did. 5) You seem to be saying that globalized trade provided economic advantages that politicians used to buy people off ? 6) Ok 7) Is Marxism redistributive ? What I have been saying, and it still seems true, is that the NDP can pick up a lot of votes from voters like you if they scale down the identity politics. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
DogOnPorch Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 8 hours ago, eyeball said: No, what its like, is that so many Muslim guys come from terrifying places that have been shot up, all too often by us and strongmen we support - which is to also say us, if we're to subscribe to the idea that voters in a democracy are responsible for the actions their governments take, including any taken by the military alliances our governments make. Islam has been 'shooting-up' the planet since its inception. One of its first acts was to behead 900 Jews and have a party. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
turningrite Posted August 21, 2018 Author Report Posted August 21, 2018 2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: 1) So is 'racist' , 'cuck' and a whole host of insults. 2) Cool. Then if people call you 'racist', you can call them 'elite' I guess. 3) Ok, do you have a cite for that ? I believe you but I myself couldn't find one. 4) Ok. I thought you said something about immigration levels there, but I re-read it and I don't think you did. 5) You seem to be saying that globalized trade provided economic advantages that politicians used to buy people off ? 6) Ok 7) Is Marxism redistributive ? What I have been saying, and it still seems true, is that the NDP can pick up a lot of votes from voters like you if they scale down the identity politics. 1) So uttering the word "elites" now amounts to profanity? You're kidding, right? That's ridiculous as well as immature. 2) See above. 3) Just do the math. 100% - 43% = 57% opposed. It doesn't even require new math. 4) Okay 5) No, I'm saying that provided people felt relatively secure the globalists got away with their shenanigans. Once the system fell apart, it was a differnt story. 6) - 7) I've given up on the NDP in general. I wonder if the government can do anything well? Redistribution has been a failure. Our health care system is a mess. Leave people alone. Allow them to keep and spend their own money and most would probably be better off. I used to classify myself as what some would now call "progressive" however I've utterly lost faith in the notion. I'm like a reformed smoker where progressivism is concerned. I think those who like it would be better off to quit. Quote
turningrite Posted August 21, 2018 Author Report Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, betsy said: Not only that....I think he also told the woman who simply asked legitimate questions, that she doesn't belong in Quebec! Lol. In Trudeau's tupsy-turvy world, if you ask the wrong questions - you're excluded from what must be his stoned-inspired "utopia!" In other words, his "inclusive" world does not extend to the sensible people who's got the balls to ask! He couldn't answer her questions because he doesn't have any answers at all! There is no real plan! So instead, he launches on to attacking her! Pathetic! I really enjoyed the picture you posted with your comment. Anyway, while watching Trudeau's angry attack in French on the woman in Quebec - which, unusually, the English news broadcast I watched played in full - I couldn't help but notice the level of anger in his voice. It made me wonder if internal party polling suggests that his immigration, refugee and cultural policies are undermining Lib support with not much more than a year to go until the 2019 election? I think he might be angry as well that aside from the predicable progressive cacophony, Maxime Bernier's recent remarks haven't been broadly denounced. Of course, Bernier is expressing concerns likely held by a majority in this country. Oddly, Trudeau's government yesterday announced an increase in immigration intake numbers for grannies and grandpas, which made me think he might be trying to inflame the immigration debate so he can more easily cast all his party's opponents as inherently racist. (Who doesn't like grannies and grandpas, even if they've never paid taxes here?) Based on his recent tone, it appears he's losing touch with mainstream public opinion. He blasts others for playing divisive and opportunistic politics while it appears to me that he's an enthusiastic practitioner of the art. Just don't respond in kind or you're a racist! Edited August 21, 2018 by turningrite 1 1 Quote
Argus Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 17 hours ago, h102 said: Racism. Who wants to assimilate into a society that says you are basically sub-human? Why would they even come to a society that says you are basically sub-human? 1 Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Goddess Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, Argus said: Why would they even come to a society that says you are basically sub-human? No one is saying that. Some of us are saying, "If you want to come here, leave your misogyny, hatreds and ethnic wars at the door." 1 Quote "There are two different types of people in the world - those who want to know and those who want to believe." ~~ Friedrich Nietzsche ~~
Argus Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: 8) Elitist consensus ? How can you have an elitist consensus when the elitist are supposedly 1% ? I don't understand the math. If the elites control the levers of power and the major media then it's fairly easily maintained. The elitist consensus on immigration, multiculturalism and diversity, for example, is that all are good and none have any drawbacks and anyone who questions any of them is basically an Adolph Hitler wannabee. No quibbling or questioning of immigration is permitted in Canada. Even Bernier's relatively mild comments are treated with horror and hysteria as the major media runs around squawking like headless chickens and politicians line up to denounce him. That includes the Conservative leadership, which is once again demonstrating how out of touch they are with their members. According to Angus Reid, opposition to immigration in Canada is at record levels, but you won't find a single politician at any level willing to represent that view. That includes the Conservative party, even though the great majority of Conservative supporters feel that way. And note that these polls don't exempt immigrants themselves from participation. Thus if 50% of Canadians think immigration is too high that's WITH immigrants participating in the voting. https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/survey-shows-spike-in-opposition-to-higher-immigration-in-canada-but-too-soon-to-call-it-a-trend#comments-area Edited August 21, 2018 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 Just now, Goddess said: No one is saying that. Some of us are saying, "If you want to come here, leave your misogyny, hatreds and ethnic wars at the door." Well, HE is saying it. My point was that if our society actually was like that then they wouldn't be coming and wouldn't be staying. Thus his suggestion is ludicrous. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
turningrite Posted August 21, 2018 Author Report Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Argus said: According to Angus Reid, opposition to immigration in Canada is at record levels, but you won't find a single politician at any level willing to represent that view. That includes the Conservative party, even though the great majority of Conservative supporters feel that way. And note that these polls don't exempt immigrants themselves from participation. Thus if 50% of Canadians think immigration is too high that's WITH immigrants participating in the voting. https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/survey-shows-spike-in-opposition-to-higher-immigration-in-canada-but-too-soon-to-call-it-a-trend#comments-area Thanks for the link to the article about this poll. It confirms a belief I've long held that there's widespread concern about immigration levels. Presumably, according to our racialist-in-chief Trudeau, close to half of all Canadians must be unrepentant racists. Is this the "fringe" element he wanted to deny a political voice when he reneged on electoral reform? Interestingly, Ontarians are among the vanguard in strongly expressing their anxieties about high immigration levels. I wonder if this is because we so clearly experience the problematic impacts on a daily basis? The quality of our lives and public services (i.e. health care) have continuously declined over the past generation. I'm puzzle as to why opposition is more muted in B.C.? Are things a lot better out there" Maybe the survey sample was smaller and therefore less reflective? In any case, it's no wonder poor JT is flummoxed. His propaganda machine hasn't convinced of us of his beneficent superiority and brilliance on these matters. More Canadians than not apparently have to live and survive in the real world. Edited August 21, 2018 by turningrite Quote
Michael Hardner Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 2 hours ago, turningrite said: 1) So uttering the word "elites" now amounts to profanity? You're kidding, right? That's ridiculous as well as immature. 2) See above. 3) Just do the math. 100% - 43% = 57% opposed. It doesn't even require new math. 4) Okay 5) No, I'm saying that provided people felt relatively secure the globalists got away with their shenanigans. Once the system fell apart, it was a differnt story. 6) - 7) I've given up on the NDP in general. I wonder if the government can do anything well? Redistribution has been a failure. Our health care system is a mess. Leave people alone. Allow them to keep and spend their own money and most would probably be better off. I used to classify myself as what some would now call "progressive" however I've utterly lost faith in the notion. I'm like a reformed smoker where progressivism is concerned. I think those who like it would be better off to quit. 1) No, speak to your point about common use vs acceptable. 3) It wasn't clear to me that you meant the election poll. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
h102 Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Argus said: Why would they even come to a society that says you are basically sub-human? Good question, in the case of blacks they were forced here in chains by whites to build the country, in the case of natives, they were already here. In the case of the other groups, most of them come from uni-culture countries or regions, where racism as it exist in Canada is non-existent, so they could not even imagine such a scenario as a person hating them for simply existing or regarding them as sub-human. They are naive to this, I guess it is a form of culture shock. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, h102 said: Good question, in the case of blacks they were forced here in chains by whites to build the country, in the case of natives, they were already here. In the case of the other groups, most of them come from uni-culture countries or regions, where racism as it exist in Canada is non-existent, so they could not even imagine such a scenario as a person hating them for simply existing or regarding them as sub-human. They are naive to this, I guess it is a form of culture shock. Canada didn't have slavery....unless you count the Haida and similar tribes. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
turningrite Posted August 21, 2018 Author Report Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, h102 said: In the case of the other groups, most of them come from uni-culture countries or regions, where racism as it exist in Canada is non-existent, so they could not even imagine such a scenario as a person hating them for simply existing or regarding them as sub-human. They are naive to this, I guess it is a form of culture shock. Huh? I don't think you've got a clue about any of this. Racism and cultural discrimination are characteristics prevalent in much of the world. They are least prevalent characteristics in post-colonial Anglo-Western and some Latin American societies as well as in Scandinavia. A Washington Post piece published in 2013 compared levels of racism around the world confirming this. The two most racist countries identified were Lebanon and India, although in the former case a relatively small sample may have skewed the results. I hope you are aware that on the Indian subcontinent religious and ethnic rivalries have in the modern era resulted in over a million deaths. And let's not get into discussing ethnic tribal violence in places like Rwanda and Uganda. Studies other than that cited by the Washington Post have reached similar conclusions. Perhaps overt discrimination is less tolerant in parts of Asia because East Asian countries, in particular, tend to remain deliberately monocultural and exclude foreign migrants. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.1b006b5c7aae Edited August 21, 2018 by turningrite Quote
Goddess Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 45 minutes ago, turningrite said: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.1b006b5c7aae Well, look at that. Canada is one of the least racist but listening to some here and our prime minister, we're one of the worst. Quote "There are two different types of people in the world - those who want to know and those who want to believe." ~~ Friedrich Nietzsche ~~
Hudson Jones Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, betsy said: Not only that....I think he also told the woman who simply asked legitimate questions, that she doesn't belong in Quebec! Lol. In Trudeau's tupsy-turvy world, if you ask the wrong questions - you're excluded from what must be his stoned-inspired "utopia!" In other words, his "inclusive" world does not extend to the sensible people who's got the balls to ask! He couldn't answer her questions because he doesn't have any answers at all! There is no real plan! So instead, he launches on to attacking her! Pathetic! True. His handling of the situation, where the woman was shouting was not so good. At least we can give him some credit, if Trudeau were to be compared to the last prime minister. The last prime minister barely made any public appearances and limited questions to media that supported him or even paid his party. He never did any town hall meetings like Trudeau has and Trudeau has not engaged in muzzling government workers, like the scientists who weren't happy with Harper's policies. But yeah, who cares what Harper did and the fact that you supported him, let's continue with the double standards. Edited August 21, 2018 by Hudson Jones Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
taxme Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 On 8/15/2018 at 3:25 PM, Michael Hardner said: 1. We have been hearing this since the 70s, from Trudeau Sr. 2. It can be a bad idea for other reasons too. 3. Yes, and if he ends up being popular we could have another string of 4-term majority Liberal governments. 1. I know and I am getting sick and tired of hearing from the disastrous Trudeau duo who has and still do constantly talk about how wonderful multiculturalism and diversity is all suppose to be great for Canada and Canadians. Those two mentioned above programs are dividers of people and not uniters. 2. Whenever anyone wants to criticize anything that has to do with multiculturalism or diversity they will be immediately labelled racist. This needs to stop. 3. Scary thought indeed. So, I guess real and true conservatives will be forced to vote for the lesser of two evils. Liberals or conservatives. Not much of a choice to choose from. After the next election maybe then Bernier should start up a new party. Then again there is the Canadian Nationalist Party in the background to vote for also. Maybe Bernier could join that party. I know that you do not like the word nationalist so I doubt that you would have anything good to say about that party. Quote
PIK Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 2 hours ago, h102 said: Good question, in the case of blacks they were forced here in chains by whites to build the country, in the case of natives, they were already here. In the case of the other groups, most of them come from uni-culture countries or regions, where racism as it exist in Canada is non-existent, so they could not even imagine such a scenario as a person hating them for simply existing or regarding them as sub-human. They are naive to this, I guess it is a form of culture shock. You need a lesson in history of slaves. Blacks sold more blacks into slavery then whitey did. And the muslim slave trade was even worse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery#African_participation_in_the_slave_trade 1 Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
taxme Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 11 hours ago, betsy said: Not only that....I think he also told the woman who simply asked legitimate questions, that she doesn't belong in Quebec! Lol. In Trudeau's tupsy-turvy world, if you ask the wrong questions - you're excluded from what must be his stoned-inspired "utopia!" In other words, his "inclusive" world does not extend to the sensible people who's got the balls to ask! He couldn't answer her questions because he doesn't have any answers at all! There is no real plan! So instead, he launches on to attacking her! Pathetic! Liberals are clueless when it comes to anything period. They all lack any kind of common sense or logic but prefer to live in an emotional state of mind all their lives. If one asked them to spell decency or morality they would all stand there looking stumped. Even if someone says hello to them they stand there stumped looking and appear to be looking for an answer. LOL. Quote
PIK Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 46 minutes ago, Hudson Jones said: True. His handling of the situation, where the woman was shouting was not so good. At least we can give him some credit, if Trudeau were to be compared to the last prime minister. The last prime minister barely made any public appearances and limited questions to media that supported him or even paid his party. He never did any town hall meetings like Trudeau has and Trudeau has not engaged in muzzling government workers, like the scientists who weren't happy with Harper's policies. But yeah, who cares what Harper did and the fact that you supported him, let's continue with the double standards. https://torontosun.com/2016/08/08/muzzled-scientists-trudeau-carries-on-just-like-harper/wcm/8455b4ba-1759-43d1-a904-16c5e3e761bf Now when you look at it harper kept the country safe, by having secure borders. He did not start a fight with most of the provinces. He did not try and ruin businesses with dumb enviro programs that have been proved to not work, but to fill government coffers. Trudeau is a failure, and only a idiot would try and defend him. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
PIK Posted August 21, 2018 Report Posted August 21, 2018 And the conservatives have a huge book with all the insults trudeau has let fly against real canadians, and refugees that waited in line to come to this country. Trudeau's goose is cooked next yr. 1 Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
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