Bernier criticizes Trudeau's "extreme multiculturalism"

[WestCanMan]

7 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Well, I guess that's what happens after twenty years of listening to right-wingers compare you to Pol Pot and proudly and loudly shit on anything you say if it smacks of anything progressive or doesn't conform to their narrative. 

I don't really agree with the word "progressive" for the Liberal agenda.

I think we should all meet up at "pragmatic". Just see the actual world we all live in, work on our own faults but not exaggerate them, try to get along and stay out of each others' business when possible.

My main problem with "Liberals" is the inability to see/deal with the truth.

[WestCanMan]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You're free to ignore me all you want.  FYI your stupid question has been addressed ad nauseaum here already. Maybe next time you'll spend a little more time getting the lay of the sandbox before swaggering into it like you did here.

It can't actually be answered in a satisfactory manner. The only successful answer over the years has been "You talk about mohammed we kill you". 

Like I said before, you dodge everything you have no answer for and throw out insults. It's ALL YOU DO. When you realize that you don't have a good answer does it ever occur to you that maybe you're wrong? Have you ever experienced cognitive dissonance (that feeling that you have conflicting ideas in your head)? No, I bet you haven't, because when you come up against an argument that literally destroys your position you either go ad hominem or dodge. You can't just stay in a debate and answer all the tough questions head-on. Make some salient points. But who needs to when you can just win arguments by yelling "You're a racist!" lol.

 

[Shady]

On 8/16/2018 at 9:45 PM, Michael Hardner said:

2.  Disunity is happening everywhere, including in places where there is very little immigration.  

Where exactly are you referring to?

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, Truth Detector said:

Where exactly are you referring to?

Lots of places, such as Japan... Scandinavia, Asia.  We are undergoing great social change and to blame it on one surface element is likely wrong.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Lots of places, such as Japan... Scandinavia, Asia.  We are undergoing great social change and to blame it on one surface element is likely wrong.

I'm unaware of any disunity in Japan. The disunity in Scandinavia definitely has 100% to do with immigration. Not sure which Asian country you're referring to. AFAIK all disunity is because of different ethnicities  and religious groups in the same country.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

 AFAIK all disunity is because of different ethnicities  and religious groups in the same country.

"All disunity".  To my mind disunity has been increasing steadily from one era to the next.  First it was war and the cultural revolution, then the recession, then...

[Michael Hardner]

11 hours ago, turningrite said:

Sponsorship doesn't pertain to health care costs. I believe that for sponsored landed immigrants, health care costs are borne from Day 1 by taxpayers. This should be changed, of course, and sponsors should be required to purchase health insurance to cover their relatives during the sponsorship period (which I believe for sponsored seniors is generally 10 years) but as immigration is now a vote buying scheme don't expect this to happen anytime soon.   

You are right, but I am trying to frame the problem as a set of people coming over in a group.  Does my assertion make sense ?  I don't know I am just supposing... I would like to see an analysis because - although I believe your numbers - I can't believe that we are just bringing in unproductive people without a reason.  Now, of course I could be wrong too.

Without a knowledgeable person to explain the math, then I don't have an answer - just supposition.

[Michael Hardner]

9 hours ago, Argus said:

Sponsorship doesn't matter because the sponsors are not responsible for health care costs. But yes, we're talking about elderly people being sponsored by their immigrant children here in Canada.

So that might be part of it but we are just in the area of supposition unless we see the math.

[dialamah]

12 hours ago, turningrite said:

When searching specifically for federal legislative or policy information, I tend to refine the search by ending it with "gc.ca" in order to get the most relevant results. The immigration information is fascinating, reading in some instances as a form of advertisement.

Thanks for the hint.  Yes, Canada is very inviting to immigrants.  My sister used to work for the YMCA in Vancouver and met a lot of immigrants.   Turns out that when advertising in other lands, Canada paints a very rosy picture of the opportunities here.  They fail to mention useful tidbits like "Your degree will be useless here unless you can support yourself while paying tuition to go to university and get a Canadian certification".  They show up with advanced degrees in Engineering or Medicine and find out janitor work, taxi driving and fast food are wide open for them.

[turningrite]

7 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Thanks for the hint.  Yes, Canada is very inviting to immigrants.  My sister used to work for the YMCA in Vancouver and met a lot of immigrants.   Turns out that when advertising in other lands, Canada paints a very rosy picture of the opportunities here.  They fail to mention useful tidbits like "Your degree will be useless here unless you can support yourself while paying tuition to go to university and get a Canadian certification".  They show up with advanced degrees in Engineering or Medicine and find out janitor work, taxi driving and fast food are wide open for them.

When I was still working and interacting with a lot of people, I ran into many immigrants, whatever their credentials, who were disappointed in general at the lack of substantive employment opportunities in this country. The professional qualifications issue is long-standing, though, and not some recent "racist" attempt to hold immigrants down, as some would have it. My white mother, who immigrated to Canada from the U.S. in the early 1950s, couldn't get her American university degree or credentials recognized here upon arriving. She was told that only Canadian and/or British qualifications were accepted and that she'd have to go back to school to work in her field. Professional protectionism is a generations old reality.

[eyeball]

21 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

I don't really agree with the word "progressive" for the Liberal agenda.

I think we should all meet up at "pragmatic". Just see the actual world we all live in, work on our own faults but not exaggerate them, try to get along and stay out of each others' business when possible.

My main problem with "Liberals" is the inability to see/deal with the truth.

Liberals, why did you have to drag those assholes into it?

[scribblet]

22 hours ago, Argus said:

Sponsorship doesn't matter because the sponsors are not responsible for health care costs. But yes, we're talking about elderly people being sponsored by their immigrant children here in Canada.

Which is going increase substantially under the Trudeau regime.  Don't ask him how he's going to pay for it though, as that would be 'racist' 

[eyeball]

22 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Right. So again, this post of yours is just another example of you dodging a question that you didn't have an answer for that supports your narrative, and then throwing out an insult.

I was addressing your hooey. Speaking of dodging, something you probably shouldn't lecture anyone about - do you think you're the only one who's gone 1400 years out of their way to dodge the root causes of terrorism in the 20th and 21st centuries?  In all the pseudo intellectual chattering employing this 1400 year old dodge no one has ever narrated how two wrongs make a right. As for your question about Jesus, its patently clear what he wouldn't do.

[eyeball]

21 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

It can't actually be answered in a satisfactory manner. The only successful answer over the years has been "You talk about mohammed we kill you". 

Yeah you see the exact same sort of mentality at work in every answer or comment from a conservative.   Virtually everything is peppered with references to those on the left...commies, Stalin, Brad Pitt blah blah blah.  It must be a very satisfying to answer in such fashion because you people have been going on like this for decades now.  Are ya'll really that oblivious to how ridiculous it sounds? Maybe you think you're being pragmatic.

[Argus]

14 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

So that might be part of it but we are just in the area of supposition unless we see the math.

I'm curious. Do you doubt that elderly people require a lot more health care services? Do you doubt the statement of the government of the day? Do you similarly ask math every time the Liberal government makes a claim involving numbers?

[Argus]

1 hour ago, scribblet said:

Which is going increase substantially under the Trudeau regime.  Don't ask him how he's going to pay for it though, as that would be 'racist' 

Quit bitching. The budget will balance itself.

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

I was addressing your hooey. Speaking of dodging, something you probably shouldn't lecture anyone about - do you think you're the only one who's gone 1400 years out of their way to dodge the root causes of terrorism in the 20th and 21st centuries?  In all the pseudo intellectual chattering employing this 1400 year old dodge no one has ever narrated how two wrongs make a right. As for your question about Jesus, its patently clear what he wouldn't do.

Terrorism is part of islam, just like prayer or jihad.

That's not to say that every single muslim is a terrorist, but if you support islam then you 100% support terrorism whether you know it or not.

The only reason that mohammed ever walked back into mecca after he was exiled (for religious bigotry) was because everyone was scared shitless of him after the way his army (paid with slaves and war booty, so you know they were decent men) brutally committed genocide against the Banu Qurayza tribe.

Within Afghanistan, the Taliban maintain control over the population with the liberal use of terrorism. The killing of school girls, raping women who dare to walk outside without their heads covered (is the burqa therefor a hate symbol?), killing apostates, etc. If you know anyone from Afghanistan they'll tell you that when the Taliban took control, their lives became scary. If this version of "the Taliban" was unprecedented then your commentary re: the 20th and 21st centuries would stand, but groups like the taliban are the norm over the past 1,400 years, not the exception. They come and go. Civilizations range from "mildly tolerant of other religions as long as they pay tribute" to "openly hostile" but even now in modernized, wealthy arab countries it's not really a crime to rape a woman who isn't wearing a burqa.

Do you think the Americans had anything to do with what happened in Bangladesh in 1971? Could anger at the US cause people to commit systemic rape and genocide against 100,000 women? You can't shift the blame for things like that. Only religious bigotry ever brings out that kind of evil.

Did the 20th and 21st centuries have anything to do with the muslims killing 10's of millions of hindus for religious reasons?

C'mon eyeball. If you could go back in time and eradicate the notion of religion from the human psyche you would save the world from the worst suffering it has ever known.

Edited August 24, 2018 by WestCanMan

[Shady]

19 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Lots of places, such as Japan... Scandinavia, Asia.  We are undergoing great social change and to blame it on one surface element is likely wrong.

Japan?  How so?  Scandinavia?  How so?  Asia?  Do you mean China?  How so?  

The disunity that's taking place in Europe, Scandinavia, Canada, the United States tends to be cultural changes brought upon by irresponsible immigration policies.  In fact, in the United States, you have one political party that actually advocates for open borders, and no difference between legal and illegal immigration.  They actually advocate social services, drivers licences, etc to people that are in the country illegally, at the expense of their own citizens.

[eyeball]

12 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Terrorism is part of islam, just like prayer or jihad.

 

The only reason that mohammed ever walked back into mecca after he was exiled (for religious bigotry) was because everyone was scared shitless of him after the way his army (paid with slaves and war booty, so you know they were decent men) brutally committed genocide against the Banu Qurayza tribe.

Within Afghanistan, the Taliban maintain control over the population with the liberal use of terrorism. The killing of school girls, raping women who dare to walk outside with their heads covered (is the burqa therefor a hate symbol?), killing apostates, etc. If you know anyone from Afghanistan they'll tell you that when the Taliban took control, their lives became scary. If this version of "the Taliban" was unprecedented then your commentary re: the 20th and 21st centuries would stand, but groups like the taliban are the norm over the past 1,400 years, not the exception. They come and go. Civilizations range from "mildly tolerant of other religions as long as they pay tribute" to "openly hostile" but even now in modernized, wealthy arab countries it's not really a crime to rape a woman who isn't wearing a burqa.

Do you think the Americans had anything to do with what happened in Bangladesh in 1971? Could anger at the US cause people to commit systemic rape and genocide against 100,000 women? You can't shift the blame for things like that. Only religious bigotry ever brings out that kind of evil.

Did the 20th and 21st centuries have anything to do with the muslims killing 10's of millions of hindus for religious reasons?

C'mon eyeball. If you could go back in time and eradicate the notion of religion from the human psyche you would save the world from the worst suffering it has ever known.

And exactly how does any of this make our wrongs right? C'mon WestCanMan, never mind Mo for a minute, what would Jesus say? If you could just eradicate the whataboutism that infects your thinking the answer would be apparent without any second thought.  Go back to what you learned in kindergarten.

[eyeball]

13 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

if you support islam then you 100% support terrorism whether you know it or not.

By the same token, if you knowingly vote for a government that supports murderous dictatorships you shouldn't whine when it blows back in your face. 

[WestCanMan]

17 minutes ago, eyeball said:

And exactly how does any of this make our wrongs right? C'mon WestCanMan, never mind Mo for a minute, what would Jesus say? If you could just eradicate the whataboutism that infects your thinking the answer would be apparent without any second thought.  Go back to what you learned in kindergarten.

Mo? Sounds so cute. Sure let's just forget about that teensy weensy little part of the equation because it doesn't fit your narrative right?

What did muslims do for the 400 years that they had the more powerful armies? 400 years is a long time. That's like when your grandpa's grandpa's grandpa's grandpa's grandpa's grandpa was alive. It was attacks and slavery going back for more generations than anyone could remember. They raided, took slaves, committed forced conversions, over and over again. They didn't stop until the Crusades started, but all we ever hear about is how bad the Crusades were.

In short, they did worse than what is "happening to them" now. Because what is happening to Saudi Arabia is so bad right?

When America was first formed the muslim countries raided their ships and took slaves, they even demanded/received tribute and still kept on killing/taking slaves.

Stop giving terrorists a victim card.

 

 

 

[WestCanMan]

18 minutes ago, eyeball said:

By the same token, if you knowingly vote for a government that supports murderous dictatorships you shouldn't whine when it blows back in your face. 

So you're openly supporting terrorism. That's good to know.

[Michael Hardner]

5 hours ago, Argus said:

1. I'm curious. Do you doubt that elderly people require a lot more health care services?   

2. Do you similarly ask math every time the Liberal government makes a claim involving numbers?

1. No.

2. Well, I am not asking for Bernier's math or yours but all of  it.  You are presuming to know my opinion when I am only asking questions and haven't formed it yet.

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, Truth Detector said:

Japan?  How so?  Scandinavia?  How so?  Asia?  Do you mean China?  How so?  

The disunity that's taking place in Europe, Scandinavia, Canada, the United States tends to be cultural changes brought upon by irresponsible immigration policies.   

From what I have read there is a giant generational and gender rift.  Scandinavia is struggling with it's identity as being isolationist and socialist and places like Korea and China with monoculture are all struggling with cultural issues.  All of the examples I mention are strange because they are closed societies but my point is that they are not centres of contentment and happiness.  It is difficult to pinpoint the root of unhappiness and disunity as being due to immigration as immigration is a pervasive phenomenon, and difficult to isolate as a variable.  If you have a way to approach this problem objectively I would like to hear it.

Furthermore there has been discontent and cultural strife at high levels during my lifetime where immigration had nothing to do with it.

----

I would favour a national conversation about immigration but we're not really ready for it.  We only have hot button responses such as crying 'racist' or actually being racist...

[eyeball]

23 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

So you're openly supporting terrorism. That's good to know.

No, I simply understand where its coming from and why.  Your choice to equate and conflate the word understanding with support says far more about what you support.