Was It Practical To Kill The Negotiations Over The Sunset Clause?

[betsy]

Trudeau was asking to meet personally with Trump - leader to leader talk - because he felt that they had a good chance of making a deal.  However, VP Pence called Trudeau and informed him that there is a pre-condition to the meeting.  Canada has to agree to the sunset clause - meaning, NAFTA will be up for re-negotiations every 5 years.  Trudeau refused, and effectively put an end to negotiations.

 

Was that practical?   It's not like as if Trump is President for life! 

If Trudeau was confident enough to think that they'll come to a deal if they talked face-to-face, wouldn't it better to have agreed to the pre-condition, and have it repealed later with a new President instead of having this trade war? 

 

It's such a bad timing for a trade war - what with all the economic woes Canada is facing at the moment.  They'd just lost Kinder Morgan to boot! 

What do you think?

[Queenmandy85]

There comes a time when you have to stand your ground. If we give in the the sunset clause, then there will be another pre-condition and then another. There is a good deal on the table now for all.

[dialamah]

4 hours ago, betsy said:

What do you think?

I think Trump is a moron who could care less about real life and cares only about applause over the reality TV image of himself he likes to portray.  Why would anyone agree to anything with someone who changes his mind every other tweet, who has proven himself a liar over and over again, who has broken vows to his wives, promises to business partners and contractors and with US allies.  

Good on JT for not rolling over like a beaten dog for Trump; may the rest of the world follow suit and show America that "taking your ball and going home" hurts you as much as anyone.  

Edited June 1, 2018 by dialamah

[bush_cheney2004]

Trudeau and Freeland screwed up this "file"...NAFTA already has a chapter for partners to leave the agreement after six months notice.

Canada is like a spouse who just won't go away after a divorce.

[dialamah]

The moron you call "President" is the only screw up.  He hasn't closed a deal since he's been in office, merely taken credit for deals others have negotiated and pulling out of deals in his goal to make America weak and unstable.  Congrats to you for having the dumbest, most unethical leader in modern history. 

[betsy]

4 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

There comes a time when you have to stand your ground. If we give in the the sunset clause, then there will be another pre-condition and then another. There is a good deal on the table now for all.

I'm in a hard place.   I'm applauding Trump - yet at the same time, I'm also wanting to see Canada do better.   

But.....I think, on this round, I'm putting my money on Trump.  "Doing better,"  is not in the cards when the one at our helm has proven nothing but his incompetence.  I'll wait and see what happens when a  Conservative takes the leadership.    In the meantime, we'll just have to grin and bear it.

 

Anyway.....we don't know if there'll be another pre-condition.  What if that's the only pre-condition? 

Edited June 1, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

By the way folks.....when it comes to business.....you know the old adage:   business is business.

So, don't use this so-called "friendship" as a rebuttal.  What more when we know what kind of "friend" to Trump Trudeau had shown himself to be. 

 

Why, surely  you don't imagine all those drive-by snippets to make himself look better (at the expense of Trump), wouldn't have any repercussions, do you??

Edited June 1, 2018 by betsy

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

The moron you call "President" is the only screw up.

 

Trump has better approval ratings than Canada's "screw up" drama teacher....who refused to accept a sunset clause as if Canada has an eternal right to NAFTA with the United States.    He and Freeland's team of mental midgets spent many days in the U.S. trying to influence American politics and trade...TOTAL FAIL.

Trudeau has visited the USA sixteen (16) times as prime minister.....Trump has yet to visit Canada, because he doesn't need to beg Canada for anything.

Bring on the trade war....that Canada cannot win.   Oh, and leave NAFTA already to the Canadians and Mexicans.

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, betsy said:

By the way folks.....when it comes to business.....you know the old adage:   business is business.

So, don't use this so-called "friendship" as a rebuttal.  What more when we know what kind of "friend" Trudeau showed himself to be. 

 

Agreed....Trudeau and Freeland whined about this decision as if "friendship" matters...this is business...and every U.S. president before Trump has pursued American interests, not besty friendship with Canada.   Hell, President Obama made Canada pay for all of the new Detroit River bridge !

Edited June 1, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[betsy]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

The moron you call "President" is the only screw up.

No.  The moron is the one who's got the very big mouth, and couldn't help himself from preening at the expense of whom he considers a "friend"  - even at the time they were having this crucial negotiations.   

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Trump has better approval ratings than Canada's "screw up" drama teacher....who refused to accept a sunset clause as if Canada has an eternal right to NAFTA with the United States.    He and Freeland's team of mental midgets spent many days in the U.S. trying to influence American politics and trade...TOTAL FAIL.

Trudeau has visited the USA sixteen (16) times as prime minister.....Trump has yet to visit Canada, because he doesn't need to beg Canada for anything.

Bring on the trade war....that Canada cannot win.   Oh, and leave NAFTA already to the Canadians and Mexicans.

It does not impress me that so many Americans approve of such an unethical and intellectually lacking commander in chief.  America used to be admired, even when being criticized.  Now its just a laughingstock.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, dialamah said:

It does not impress me that so many Americans approve of such an unethical and intellectually lacking commander in chief.  America used to be admired, even when being criticized.  Now its just a laughingstock.

 

What if we...just....don't...care ?   Americans are not Canadians....we do not have a "please love us" gene.  

Americans do not sanctimoniously and condescendingly say "Sad".

The U.S. has done lots of "awful" things in the past to be "admired" so much.

Trump is just another U.S. president.

[betsy]

51 minutes ago, dialamah said:

It does not impress me that so many Americans approve of such an unethical and intellectually lacking commander in chief.  America used to be admired, even when being criticized.  Now its just a laughingstock.

Let them laugh.

 

U.S. job growth surges, unemployment rate falls to 3.8 percent

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-economy/us-job-growth-seen-picking-up-wage-growth-likely-moderate-idUSKCN1IW1NX

[Bonam]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Americans do not sanctimoniously and condescendingly say "Sad".

Trump certainly does. 

[-1=e^ipi]

I can understand the undesirability of the 5 year sunset clause. However, the current NAFTA has the option to leave after 6 months notice, and it is reasonable to expect that agreements have ongoing consent (it would be rape without consent). I don't see why no 5 year sunset clause should be a pre-condition for Canada. It is better than no trade agreement for the next 5 years.

 

I suspect there are other issues that the Trudeau government is unable to compromise on (such as supply management) and that they are using the 5 year sunset clause as a convenient excuse to justify inability to get a deal.

 

Or maybe the Trump administration is too difficult to deal with. It's too hard to tell since both governments are protectionist.

Edited June 2, 2018 by -1=e^ipi

[OftenWrong]

On 6/1/2018 at 7:03 AM, betsy said:

Trudeau was asking to meet personally with Trump - leader to leader talk - because he felt that they had a good chance of making a deal.  However, VP Pence called Trudeau and informed him that there is a pre-condition to the meeting.  Canada has to agree to the sunset clause - meaning, NAFTA will be up for re-negotiations every 5 years.  Trudeau refused, and effectively put an end to negotiations.

 

Was that practical?   It's not like as if Trump is President for life! 

If Trudeau was confident enough to think that they'll come to a deal if they talked face-to-face, wouldn't it better to have agreed to the pre-condition, and have it repealed later with a new President instead of having this trade war? 

 

It's such a bad timing for a trade war - what with all the economic woes Canada is facing at the moment.  They'd just lost Kinder Morgan to boot! 

What do you think?

I think he made a mistake leaving Washington empty-handed, in a huff, and he is making a bigger mistake now. Economic retaliation against the US is like a fly trying to scare an elephant. Also, Justin Trudeau would do well to avoid mocking Donald Trump. Trudeau's recent sarcastic comments are not the kind of thing that impress Donald, and not conducive to serious negotiations at this stage. IE if Trudeau thinks he's funny, Trump's not laughing.

 

[betsy]

37 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I think he made a mistake leaving Washington empty-handed, in a huff, and he is making a bigger mistake now. Economic retaliation against the US is like a fly trying to scare an elephant. Also, Justin Trudeau would do well to avoid mocking Donald Trump. Trudeau's recent sarcastic comments are not the kind of thing that impress Donald, and not conducive to serious negotiations at this stage. IE if Trudeau thinks he's funny, Trump's not laughing.

 

....and I don't think Trump is the kind who easily forgets.

[Army Guy]

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 11:56 AM, Queenmandy85 said:

There comes a time when you have to stand your ground. If we give in the the sunset clause, then there will be another pre-condition and then another. There is a good deal on the table now for all.

You mean like all that NON trade related stuff the liberals insisted on putting into NAFTA, that really has nothing to do with trade between Canada and the US, that somehow the US agreed to....and we are hung up on a time limit to the agreement.

[betsy]

14 hours ago, Army Guy said:

You mean like all that NON trade related stuff the liberals insisted on putting into NAFTA, that really has nothing to do with trade between Canada and the US, that somehow the US agreed to....and we are hung up on a time limit to the agreement.

 

That, and poking at Trump in public events!  It's almost like as if Trudeau is sabotaging the negotiations for failure.  

Maybe, so he can further use the anti-Trump sentiment?  It's now Trump against us all Canadians?  That'll be the narrative?

And all Canadians will  unite behind our PM,  seeing that Trump is being a "bully" and "hurting" us? 

 

Could that be a likely agenda here?  Setting the stage for the coming election?

Edited June 3, 2018 by betsy

[Michael Hardner]

Side point on this: the media is serving us poorly with respect to this subject.

CP 24 (which is a Toronto news TV station) doesn't even bother to explain to the 'public' what a sunset clause IS.  I doubt most would know:
https://www.cp24.com/news/trudeau-says-proposed-u-s-visit-was-scrapped-over-demand-for-nafta-sunset-clause-1.3953947

The CBC and Star explain what it is but not why it's important to Canadians, or anyone else:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-nafta-sunset-meeting-1.4686232
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/05/31/trudeau-rejects-five-year-nafta-sunset-clause-trump-sets-out-as-precondition-to-leaders-meeting.html
 

MacLeans does the best job of explaining why it's important to some, but with a nationalist spin:
https://www.macleans.ca/economy/nafta-canada-mexico-push-back-against-u-s-plan-for-sunset-clause/

 

Quote

Also referred to as a termination clause, the proposal would end NAFTA after five years unless all three countries agree to extend it. Proposed by the Trump administration at the last negotiating round, the demand was derided by the other countries, business groups, and American lawmakers as a recipe for permanent uncertainty, contrary to the spirit of a trade agreement that is supposed to provide investor confidence.

Now that somewhat answers the natural question in the OP (ie. why not just move to get the sunset clause dropped in 5 years' time) but I think more detail is required in this answer.  Plus, you have to go to MacLeans to get the answer which is likely a first choice for such news.

We wonder why people are uninformed, but with the media making such little effort to explain something so important we shouldn't wonder that much.

[Zeitgeist]

I was not a Trudeau supporter, but to criticize Trudeau for his public treatment of Trump is just wrong.  Trudeau very early on emphasized that he could work with Trump and even said that "Trump listens" when international press galleries laughed at Trump's self-aggrandizing fascistic behavior and frowned upon his jingoistic immigration policies.  Trump leaned on Trudeau's reputation, citing him twice in his State of the Union Address.  While I have as much respect for the American people as I do for Canadians or any other people, I don't know why Trudeau provided this cover for Trump, who is now revealing just how much he values friends and allies.  I think Trudeau should take a harder stance against this president.  As powerful as the U.S. is, collectively other world leaders have a much bigger voice.  The U.S. economy is growing at a high rate.  Unemployment is low.  That isn't enough to quench the greed of this president who seems hell bent on threatening the livelihoods of millions worldwide.  It's just plain irresponsible and needs to be called out as such.

[bush_cheney2004]

Justin Trudeau was warned to take what Trump says at face value...as an "existential threat" to Canada's economy.   Trump has delivered on many of his campaign promises, including NAFTA.   Trudeau's own foreign minister (Freeland) told Parliament that the Trump administration will no longer bear the costly burden and carry the mantle of post WW2 stability for western democracies.    The U.S. is going broke while other NATO deadbeats like Canada and Germany freeload.

Trudeau continued to play nice when confronted with this stark reality.   This was his failure then and now....he deserves criticism for being so passive for so long.

 

[Zeitgeist]

Freeloader?  Canada participated fully in all of World War One, mostly without the U.S.  The U.S. joined WW2 after Pearl Harbor.  Canada was there from the start after Britain declared war on Germany.  Canada supported the U.S. in Afganistan after 911.  Canada punched above its weight in both world wars, but the stats speak for themselves.  Don't ever question that.  You only have to visit the Senate Chamber at the Parliament Buildings or the monument at Vimy Ridge to appreciate the contributions of Canada to its allies.  There were also achievements in peace-keeping, which Canada pioneered.  Prime Minister Pearson received the Nobel Peace Prize for this work.  You're buying into Trump's rhetoric with this "freeloader" nonsense.  The U.S. people have been victims to its military industrial complex for decades, contributing far more to it than was justified.  I mean, how many times over do you need to be able to destroy the world?  The U.S. has made its military too high a priority for far too long. 

Another problem is that the U.S. has meddled in so many countries, from installing Saddam Hussein as Iraqi leader to supporting the Shah in Iran to trading arms for hostages to getting involved in the opium trade to fund the Vietnam war to so much other bad behavior that has essentially come home to roost for all of the western democracies.  When Trump said that Obama created ISIS, he was referring to the fact that the former state apparatus of Iraq was essentially thrown under the bus when the U.S. did not respect the results of the democratic elections in Iraq and supported the Shia minority leader who had lost instead.  We all suffer for such actions because organizations like ISIS target the U.S. AND ITS ALLIES.  We have all paid a price for U.S. actions in the past, and yes, we have benefitted from our relationship with the U.S., but quit trying to make it seem as though Canada is somehow on the winning end.  It's been very hard for Canada to maintain its own public policies over the years because of U.S. dominance.  

Back to your original point: Look at Canada's contributions to NATO and the UN over the years.  They are substantial and some of them are not military in nature, such as training police in Afghanistan.  What's more, the U.S. has made a few rogue decisions without the support of the UN or all members of NATO, in its various coalitions of the willing.  Some of those decisions really backfired, such as the invasion of Iraq.  Anyway, these are complex and widely varying issues.  The point is, when there was a clear moral purpose, Canada has usually made contributions.  And yes, Canada has made many mistakes, from its treatment of indigenous peoples in residential schools to its treatment of Chinese railroad workers to its treatment of Jewish immigrants during WW2.  We have problems just like the U.S. does.  The U.S. is not going broke.  We all have to work together to maintain peace internationally.  By alienating its allies and everyone else, the U.S. will have a harder time getting buy-in from the international community on a range of issues.  It's about winning hearts and minds, not breeding contempt.

[bush_cheney2004]

44 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Freeloader?  Canada participated fully in all of World War One, mostly without the U.S.  The U.S. joined WW2 after Pearl Harbor.  Canada was there from the start after Britain declared war on Germany. 

 

It was Canada's war as loyal part of the imperialist, warmongering  British Empire.    WW1 and WW2 were not started by the U.S., but the U.S. sure as hell finished them.   Britain was broke, its empire would continue to decline, so Canada had to find another economic sugar daddy...USA.

Quote

Canada supported the U.S. in Afganistan after 911.  Canada punched above its weight in both world wars, but the stats speak for themselves.  Don't ever question that.  You only have to visit the Senate Chamber at the Parliament Buildings or the monument at Vimy Ridge to appreciate the contributions of Canada to its allies.  There were also achievements in peace-keeping, which Canada pioneered.  Prime Minister Pearson received the Nobel Peace Prize for this work.  You're buying into Trump's rhetoric with this "freeloader" nonsense.  The U.S. people have been victims to its military industrial complex for decades, contributing far more to it than was justified.  I mean, how many times over do you need to be able to destroy the world?  The U.S. has made its military too high a priority for far too long. 

 

 

False....Canada has not kept its commitment to NATO/military funding...Canadian Forces have been starved and abused for decades now.   Trump is not the only president to call Canada out on this...even Obama criticized Canada for being a NATO deadbeat.  There can be no peace keeping until there is peace making.

"Punching above its weight" = FREELOADER

Quote

Another problem is that the U.S. has meddled in so many countries, from installing Saddam Hussein as Iraqi leader to supporting the Shah in Iran to trading arms for hostages to getting involved in the opium trade to fund the Vietnam war to so much other bad behavior that has essentially come home to roost for all of the western democracies.  When Trump said that Obama created ISIS, he was referring to the fact that the former state apparatus of Iraq was essentially thrown under the bus when the U.S. did not respect the results of the democratic elections in Iraq and supported the Shia minority leader who had lost instead.  We all suffer for such actions because organizations like ISIS target the U.S. AND ITS ALLIES.  We have all paid a price for U.S. actions in the past, and yes, we have benefitted from our relationship with the U.S., but quit trying to make it seem as though Canada is somehow on the winning end.  It's been very hard for Canada to maintain its own public policies over the years because of U.S. dominance. 

 

Canada has not only benefited, it has championed such polices as part of "Responsibility to Protect".    Chretien attacked Serbia (Kosovo War) enthusiastically,  even though Serbia was no threat to Canada.   Ditto Iraq, Balkans, Haiti, Libya, and Syria.    The plot to depose Aristide in Haiti (2004) was developed in Canada.

 

Quote

Back to your original point: Look at Canada's contributions to NATO and the UN over the years.  They are substantial and some of them are not military in nature, such as training police in Afghanistan.  What's more, the U.S. has made a few rogue decisions without the support of the UN or all members of NATO, in its various coalitions of the willing.  Some of those decisions really backfired, such as the invasion of Iraq.  Anyway, these are complex and widely varying issues.  The point is, when there was a clear moral purpose, Canada has usually made contributions.  And yes, Canada has made many mistakes, from its treatment of indigenous peoples in residential schools to its treatment of Chinese railroad workers to its treatment of Jewish immigrants during WW2.  We have problems just like the U.S. does.  The U.S. is not going broke.  We all have to work together to maintain peace internationally.  By alienating its allies and everyone else, the U.S. will have a harder time getting buy-in from the international community on a range of issues.  It's about winning hearts and minds, not breeding contempt.

 

Then Canada and other nations better start paying more of the bill.....Trump is not going to pick up the majority of the check anymore (NATO, UN, NORAD) without consequences on trade and foreign policy.    

Edited June 4, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

"It was Canada's war as loyal part of the imperialist British Empire.    WW1 and WW2 were not started by the U.S., but the U.S. sure as hell finished them.   Britain was broke, its empire would continue to decline, so Canada had to find another economic sugar daddy...USA."

You're saying the U.S. won the wars because of its power, not moral purpose.   Britain was broke because it made massive sacrifices to fight a just war that the U.S. joined after it was attacked.  Britain was the first country to declare war on Germany.  That's a badge of honour in my books.  With regard to Canada's position in Bosnia against Serbia and its actions in Haiti, the reasons for such involvement were moral and not only self-interested.  Yes, Canada has acted outside of the UN like the U.S. has and reserves that right.  The U.S. is locked into a massive military supply chain that it cannot break.  Military overspending in the U.S. is a problem.  As with the second amendment, the American people don't seem to see a way out of it.  I guess it's worth asking the question: If NATO is policing the world, whose messes is it cleaning up?  It's arguable that the U.S.'s allies have spent a hell of a lot of money supporting U.S. causes and cleaning up the fallout of U.S. policies.  I don't even question this anymore.  I think of the massive security fees Canadians spend on air travel, which were essentially a salve to the U.S. after 911.  We accept this as a reasonable price to pay in our relationship.  If Trump is counting costs and coming to a different tally on matters such as trade surpluses, maybe Canada needs to take a closer look at all of the costs.