Was It Practical To Kill The Negotiations Over The Sunset Clause?

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Thinkinoutsidethebox said:

1) Selling companies off to foreign interests can't be good for Canada in the long term. The second things don't go their way they pack up and either take the work elseware or shut it down. Domesticly owned they at least put some effort into keeping it going. 

2) This capital argument is interesting, you say foreign investment is required for capital but after that all profits leave the country. Do economists consider that side of the equation? Maybe it's the reason Canada doesn't have enough capital in the first place. 

1) This is a decades-old approach to domestic investment.  There is more capital on earth than in Canada.  "The second things don't go their way" goes for pretty much every investor in terms of how they match their money.

2) Yes they do.  Canada is smaller than the world which is why there is less capital here.

[Army Guy]

On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 2:53 PM, Zeitgeist said:

The oil reserves in the U.S. are much smaller than the Canadian reserves.  There's a party going on as the U.S. accesses shale oil through fracking, but that's a short-term boom.  Canada's a long-term secure energy source for the world.  It should NOT put all its eggs in the U.S. export basket, especially in terms of refining.  Canada can do its own refining.  We need Energy East to ensure that our domestic oil market is priority one.  If the U.S. wants to treat Canadian resources as though they are domestic resources, they have to treat their market as our domestic market, period.  That will eternally be the deal. 

We have put all our eggs into exporting oil to the US, or at least most of them, Sure Canada could do it's own refining.....one would have to ask why does the US do most of it for us ? is it that we like selling off oil at a deflated cost, only to buy it back process at higher rates ?

We need energy east , yes we do....except we can't drive a pipe line through  one province, let alone drive one across the entire country....and then Quebec is got it's hands out....it won't allow one driven across Quebec unless it stops in Montreal to be process.....Our federal government has not shown the leadership required to drive a bicycle , let alone a pipe line.....Have we put any pipe in the ground for the trans mountain yet ? but we still continue to pay protestors right... This government is not interested in driving any pipe lines any where......or it would have already been done....

 

e need to stop all this liberal bullshit about forcing liberal values into NAFTA when they have nothing to do with TRADE.....and why can't we agree to a clause to revamp or look at this agreement every 5 years.....there is after another clause that says ANYONE can leave after giving 6 months notice.....

[Thinkinoutsidethebox]

On 6/7/2018 at 8:59 AM, Michael Hardner said:

1) This is a decades-old approach to domestic investment.  There is more capital on earth than in Canada.  "The second things don't go their way" goes for pretty much every investor in terms of how they match their money.

2) Yes they do.  Canada is smaller than the world which is why there is less capital here.

Nonsense, where there is will there is a way. You don't need a bucket of foreign money to accomplish things. 

The reason foreigners are investing in Canada is they can exploit our resources and make huge profits. 

You all seriously underestimate Canadians and Canada's capabilities, I can't believe you have so little faith in this country. 

Canada is a follower who wants to play with the other kids. There are other even smaller countries who take the lead, think outside the box and are doing very well for themselves. We have everything we need except the will, it's one of the reasons people like Trump are getting elected. We are watching our country sink deeper and deeper into debt, we are virtually giving our resources away, we are exporting more and more manufacturing, talent and resourcefulness every day using the exact thinking you are promoting. Using the same thinking that got us into this mess is not going to get us out. 

Doesn't this country have think tanks? Are they trained monkeys prohibited from coming up with ideas that can actually save this country? Maybe we should fire the whole group and hire a bunch of kids... 

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, Thinkinoutsidethebox said:

1) Nonsense, where there is will there is a way. You don't need a bucket of foreign money to accomplish things. 

2) The reason foreigners are investing in Canada is they can exploit our resources and make huge profits. 

3) You all seriously underestimate Canadians and Canada's capabilities, I can't believe you have so little faith in this country. 

4) we are virtually giving our resources away, we are exporting more and more manufacturing, talent and resourcefulness every day using the exact thinking you are promoting. Using the same thinking that got us into this mess is not going to get us out. 

5) Doesn't this country have think tanks? Are they trained monkeys prohibited from coming up with ideas that can actually save this country? Maybe we should fire the whole group and hire a bunch of kids... 

1) 'Things' ... the devil is in the details.  Do you need a bucket of foreign money to get a fence painted ?  No.  How about to invest in a massive private infrastructure project ?  Yes.  Of course there are limits to these things.

2) That is the nature of all investment, yes.  The investor class 'exploits' the resources and produces consumer product while hiring Canadians.  That is life.

3) Are you really arguing with my logic that Canada has fewer resources than the world itself ?  

4) Resources are priced on a world market.  Exports help our trade balance and bring wealth into the country.  It's not "my" thinking it's macroeconomic practice followed since Trudeau Sr.'s era.  And... what "mess" ?

5) Given that you are promoting ideas from the 1970s I don't see you as being in a position to cast aspersions on the practices of world trade. 

But keep thinking outside the box, at least you are expressing a ground's-eye-view of problems as fodder for discussion.

 

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 6/1/2018 at 10:26 PM, -1=e^ipi said:

I can understand the undesirability of the 5 year sunset clause. However, the current NAFTA has the option to leave after 6 months notice, and it is reasonable to expect that agreements have ongoing consent (it would be rape without consent). I don't see why no 5 year sunset clause should be a pre-condition for Canada. It is better than no trade agreement for the next 5 years.

 

I suspect there are other issues that the Trudeau government is unable to compromise on (such as supply management) and that they are using the 5 year sunset clause as a convenient excuse to justify inability to get a deal.

.

There's a big difference between being able to terminate a deal and having a definite time limit on the deal. The option to leave clause has never been used. By contrast, a 5 year sunset clause discourages companies from investing in Canada because they can't plan for the future. 10 or 15 years might have been tolerable but 5 means never-ending negotiations and uncertainty. 

Both countries have peculiarly high tariffs on certain agricultural products which are a tiny part of the overall relationship. And how big is the US trade deficit with Canada right now anyway? 

We should get rid of supply management but Trump's loudmouth insults make it a lot harder to do so. Some negotiator he is. We are an independent country and deserve a certain respect in how our leader is spoken to publicly by a close ally. 

 

Edited June 10, 2018 by SpankyMcFarland

[bush_cheney2004]

Trump has the absolute right to leave NAFTA after six month's notice...it is part of the agreement.   

Canada has no right to a permanent trade deal with the USA, ally or not.   

Canada is a competitor, but still far too dependent on U.S. trade...more than any other country in the world.

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Trump has the absolute right to leave NAFTA after six month's notice...it is part of the agreement.   

Canada has no right to a permanent trade deal with the USA, ally or not.   

Canada is a competitor, but still far too dependent on U.S. trade...more than any other country in the world.

Such an escape clause exists in many international agreements but is very rarely used. For example, Iran could leave the NPT if it wanted. 

Trade benefits both countries. The old ideas about win-lose trade gave us a much poorer world. 

 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Such an escape clause exists in many international agreements but is very rarely used. For example, Iran could leave the NPT if it wanted. 

Trade benefits both countries. The old ideas about win-lose trade gave us a much poorer world. 

 

 

Really ?   Do you mean like when Canada left the Kyoto Protocol treaty back in 2011 ?   Like that rarely used ?

Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do.....Canada can take it or leave it.

The U.S. is far less dependent on exports to Canada, Canadian capital investment, etc.

[eyeball]

Was It Practical To Kill The Negotiations Over The Sunset Clause?

It probably would have been more practical to kill Trump.

What? Like I'm the only one who thought that?

 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

It probably would have been more practical to kill Trump.

What? Like I'm the only one who thought that?

 

 

How would you do that .....another terrorist attack from Canada ?

[eyeball]

11 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

How would you do that .....another terrorist attack from Canada ?

I kind of expected an inside job by now.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, eyeball said:

I kind of expected an inside job by now.

 

Why ?   Trump's poll numbers are better than Trudeau's in Canada.

[eyeball]

I suppose but when Doug Ford starts to express support for Trudeau in his scrap with Trump it's clear that political tides are changing. 

Edited June 10, 2018 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I suppose but when Doug Ford starts to express support for Trudeau in his scrap with Trump it's clear that political tides are changing. 

 

Trudeau is so incompetent he even has provinces fighting each other over trade, pipelines, and carbon taxes.   

[SpankyMcFarland]

39 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Really ?   Do you mean like when Canada left the Kyoto Protocol treaty back in 2011 ?   Like that rarely used ?

Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do.....Canada can take it or leave it.

The U.S. is far less dependent on exports to Canada, Canadian capital investment, etc.

Yes, rarely used and a very different situation. If the US left NAFTA it would end the entire deal. 

A sunset clause, on the other hand, would mean definite, constant renegotiation of NAFTA which would make it useless, not worth signing. 

Trade benefits both countries - Canada AND the USA. Businesses understand that. America Alone destroys the post-war consensus that America built in the world at precisely the time it will need support to shape Chinese behaviour over the next century. 

 

Edited June 10, 2018 by SpankyMcFarland

[bush_cheney2004]

12 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Yes, rarely used and a very different situation. If the US left NAFTA it would end the entire deal.

 

So it is OK for Canada to ditch a climate change treaty for Canadian interests, but bad for Trump to leave NAFTA ?

 

Quote

A sunset clause, on the other hand, would mean definite, constant renegotiation of NAFTA which would make it useless, not worth signing.

 

Then don't sign it....original NAFTA included provisions for any partner nation to leave after six months notice....nothing special about Canada and the USA.  Canada and Mexico have far less trade compared with USA trade....why ?

 

Quote

Trade benefits both countries - Canada AND the USA. Businesses understand that. America Alone destroys the post-war consensus that America built in the world at precisely the time it will need support to shape Chinese behaviour over the next century. 

 

Too bad....Canada and Germany are NATO deadbeats for "post-war" order, and the Americans will no longer pay most of the bill in blood and treasure.

China is ascending no matter what Trump or the U.S. does.

[SpankyMcFarland]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

So it is OK for Canada to ditch a climate change treaty for Canadian interests, but bad for Trump to leave NAFTA ?

 

 

Then don't sign it....original NAFTA included provisions for any partner nation to leave after six months notice....nothing special about Canada and the USA.  Canada and Mexico have far less trade compared with USA trade....why ?

 

 

Too bad....Canada and Germany are NATO deadbeats for "post-war" order, and the Americans will no longer pay most of the bill in blood and treasure.

China is ascending no matter what Trump or the U.S. does.

1. I would disagree with both.

2. A sunset clause makes it much less attractive to sign. We should not sign it. 

3. Canada should pay more to support NATO.

4. China is ascending but modifying its behaviour is crucial for the rest of the world. 

 

 

[bush_cheney2004]

22 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

1. I would disagree with both.

2. A sunset clause makes it much less attractive to sign. We should not sign it. 

3. Canada should pay more to support NATO.

4. China is ascending but modifying its behaviour is crucial for the rest of the world. 

 

 

 

1.   OK, but nations are free to exercise negotiated exit clauses...circumstances change over 25 years.

2.   Agreed...Canada should not sign such an agreement if it does not support Canada's interests.   But that doesn't mean the U.S. should relent.

3.   Agreed again, but Canada hasn't and won't, because it doesn't have to....yet.

4.   China has joined global trade and is very competitive.   Canada and other western nations should not depend on the U.S. economy or military to be the largest counter-balance.  China is now the USA's largest trading partner.

 

I am old enough to remember when FTA/NAFTA did not exist....Canada survived just fine.   Canada has become far too dependent on the U.S. market and direct investment...Canada is responsible for Canada, not the Americans.

 

Edited June 11, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[SpankyMcFarland]

Even Harper is expressing bewilderment at Team Trump’s outlandish behaviour:

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/trump-trade-beef-with-canada-former-canadian-prime-minister-weighs-in

And Trump said “the gig is up”. Not jig, gig. I’ve never heard anybody make that mistake before. 

 

[bush_cheney2004]

4 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

And Trump said “the gig is up”. Not jig, gig. I’ve never heard anybody make that mistake before.

 

"Gig" has existed alongside "jig" for many years in American usage / media.   "Jig" is more intended to describe nefarious dealings that have been found out, while "gig" is an engagement or employ that is now over.

South Park episode used "gig" according to this reference:

Quote

Tucker:

And you did a great job leading us here. Now you just stay out of our way! [into the megaphone]

The gig is up, Fosse! Bring out the doll! Or we'll tell on you!

http://southpark.wikia.com/wiki/Lil'_Crime_Stoppers/Script

 

[Jimwd]

On 6/1/2018 at 11:49 AM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Trump has better approval ratings than Canada's "screw up" drama teacher....who refused to accept a sunset clause as if Canada has an eternal right to NAFTA with the United States.    He and Freeland's team of mental midgets spent many days in the U.S. trying to influence American politics and trade...TOTAL FAIL.

Trudeau has visited the USA sixteen (16) times as prime minister.....Trump has yet to visit Canada, because he doesn't need to beg Canada for anything.

Bring on the trade war....that Canada cannot win.   Oh, and leave NAFTA already to the Canadians and Mexicans.

Check international approval ratings. Trump is despised world wide. He has brought shame and disgrace to his nation.

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, Jimwd said:

Check international approval ratings. Trump is despised world wide. He has brought shame and disgrace to his nation.

 

Good...Trump does not need the world to love him...that is a Canadian value...not American.

[Jimwd]

On 6/1/2018 at 1:02 PM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

What if we...just....don't...care ?   Americans are not Canadians....we do not have a "please love us" gene.  

Americans do not sanctimoniously and condescendingly say "Sad".

The U.S. has done lots of "awful" things in the past to be "admired" so much.

Trump is just another U.S. president.

No trump is not just another president, trump is a fascist demagogue who is destroying your democracy and is a threat to the world. Your condescending comments to a nation that sacraficed the lives of their troops because you were attacked on 911 is disgusting and pathetic.

[Jimwd]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Good...Trump does not need the world to love him...that is a Canadian value...not American.

 

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Good...Trump does not need the world to love him...that is a Canadian value...not American.

You brought up approval  ratings not me. Backfired huh?

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, Jimwd said:

No trump is not just another president, trump is a fascist demagogue who is destroying your democracy and is a threat to the world. Your condescending comments to a nation that sacraficed the lives of their troops because you were attacked on 911 is disgusting and pathetic.

 

NATO membership has responsibilities...even for defense spending deadbeats that sent Canadian Forces into war without proper equipment, jungle camo, no rotary winged aircraft, and Iltis jeeps.    Now that's pathetic.

Trump is an existential threat to Canada's economy because no other nation in the world is so dependent on the USA market, investment capital, and military.

Edited June 12, 2018 by bush_cheney2004