Jerusalem is Israel's Capital...

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, marcus said:

...Nothing, no cause, is more noble and ennobling today than the Palestinian cause—and no racist occupation of another people’s homeland uglier that the Israeli occupation of Palestine — and here is the evidence of it— all you have to do is to look at this picture —

 

Are they taking him to a residential school ?

[Altai]

Yeru-Shalom 

Shalom=Selam 

Selam=Seleme

Seleme=Islam 

The City of Islam 

 

Bite your fingers 

[Omni]

22 minutes ago, Altai said:

Yeru-Shalom 

Shalom=Selam 

Selam=Seleme

Seleme=Islam 

The City of Islam 

 

Bite your fingers 

With all that and 25 cents you can make a phone call. 

[marcus]

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Are they taking him to a residential school ?

Or to a gas chamber?

[Altai]

President Erdogan said "We wont leave Jarusalem  (the city of islam) in the hands of a child murderer country"

 

Bite your fingers 

Edited December 10, 2017 by Altai

[OftenWrong]

6 hours ago, marcus said:

Look at the ugliness around him, the vile and violent machinery of death and destruction that is Zionism, that is Israel

Or they have surrounded him to protect him from being killed by a sniper. 

[eyeball]

12 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Oh to drink hot blood, eh?

What the heck is that about?

[OftenWrong]

10 minutes ago, eyeball said:

What the heck is that about?

Just something I read in a book one time by some author, think he was called William Shakespeare.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, marcus said:

Or to a gas chamber?

You'd think they'd avoid them like the plague, after all that happened.

[eyeball]

13 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Just something I read in a book one time by some author, think he was called William Shakespeare.

And just how the heck does that bear on anything we're talking about? 

[OftenWrong]

15 minutes ago, eyeball said:

And just how the heck does that bear on anything we're talking about? 

I dunno. I think the quote is about wanting revenge. You figure it out.

[eyeball]

9 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I think the quote is about wanting revenge. You figure it out.

Revenge for what?

Quote

I dunno.

Now you're talking. 

Edited December 10, 2017 by eyeball

[OftenWrong]

13 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Revenge for what?

Now you're talking. 

Not a member of the literati, evidently. "Good heavens... a Yale man"   

[Omni]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Revenge for what?

Now you're talking. 

Agreed. At least one comment was clear enough.

[Scott Mayers]

On 09/12/2017 at 2:52 AM, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

No, it does not make sense, but I will propose another model that has been executed in the past and still exists today:

Israel could draft The Palestinian Act of 2018, taking sovereign control of all the land, but agreeing to cultural requirements of the Palestinian population on designated "reserves".   In this way, Israel would retain control of borders and natural resources while native Arabs would become "status Palestinians" subject to the legislation and courts of the Israeli sovereign state.  Negotiated "treaties" could be agreed to by both parties, subject to the whim of the controlling sovereign.

This solution model has been implemented around the world, most notably in North America on a large, continental scale.

Sorry for the late response. 

I was taking a 'neutral' stance in the approach I was explaining. If you look objectively at the situation, the Israeli nor Palestinians could resolve the problem FROM WITHIN. IF we, as the rest of the world, were NOT affected by their turmoil, we could ignore them completely and let them kill each other on their own. But we ARE affected everywhere by what occurs there. If this were not the case, then no one here would have any justification to be discussing why one of 'us', as Trump represents, as an outsider, should care one way or the other to even have a concern to demonstrate favor nor disfavor of Israel nor Palestine's need to declare Jerusalem as the domain of either side. 

Because of the significance of the Palestinian/Israeli issues imposed upon us all, we require demanding a U.N. type resolution that removes Jerusalem from anyone's' UNIQUE power over that contentious historical place. I already doubt your actual sincerity as being the 'American' you claim if you don't recognize how Washington D.C. represented this KIND of resolution when it was created. 

We should also impose upon Israel to abandon all 'settlements' and divide the whole region (without inside influence) to 'states' that have boundaries of equal right to a 'contingent' land with part of it connecting to Mediterranean access. Walls should be torn down as well. 

To me, IF this cannot be done, we need to either abandon trade to or from those impeding an actual solution that is not of a genocidal nature. And if this is still not being done, we should completely destroy the whole area and 'reset' it for the rest of the world to have a peace and chance to resettle it with fair people. 

[Scott Mayers]

On 09/12/2017 at 7:34 AM, Rue said:

I have argued that Scott Mayer, Hudson Jones, Marcus et al, use the identical script over and over again. One of the things

these supposed individuals do is to constantly put the shrinking map falsehood on threads about Israel over and over again.

The technique is based on a simple principal, if you repeat the same lie or falsehood repeatedly, it will become true.

 

In fact the shrinking map argument is placed on this form in  each and every post or thread about Israel.

http://edgar1981.blogspot.ca/2014/05/countering-shrinking-palestine-maps-lie.html

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2012/07/debunking-map-that-lies.html

http://www.catholicsforisrael.com/articles/israel-today/188-israel-palestine-when-the-map-lies

Interestingly whenever the shrinking maps technique is exposed as a sham none of the Middle East experts who present this shit on this forum follow up and respond. 

I respond. It's hard to debate with you because you ARE an Israeli supporter AND with a more personal interest because of your own emotional connection as being Jewish related. When some case is brought before a court about some crime involving one's personal relations, while one could be relatively fair in other issues, the family's links make them liable to act without logical reflection. You respond too defensively without realizing your biases. I understand it but cannot help if we cannot step back and look at it objectively. 

The maps I used shows the prior peoples in Jerusalem which shows that even the Jews were in less numbers than even the Christian presence there at a relatively recent time (people involved in those times still exist and affect the politics there!) This makes any argument about latter periods that alter the conditions moot if you argue for anything but WAR and POWER of force (might) as some right to maintain Israeli support. It is hypocritical to also support an even earlier ancient time as some just claim by Jews if they opt to selectively IGNORE what occurred in between. That is, you can't beg people have COMPASSION to defend the ancient Jewish claim of ownership when the same people ALSO argue for a NON-COMPASSIONATE right-to-might justification to ownership of that area for the Jews now.

You must remain consistent: If you opt to ask for some 'right-by-justice' arguments through some compassionate expectation, you can't take its contradictory stance, 'right-by-might' arguments and expect you aren't being sincere. Because many take emotional issues on this subject for some connection to that area by some religious-cultural beliefs of their own (or some economic ones too), you will tend to ignore ANY remote arguments for your 'side' without concern for that consistency when arguing.

[GostHacked]

23 hours ago, Rue said:

Present the statement he said that. In fact on Feb. 10, 2016, he stated, "  Israel has no choice in the current political reality but to continue its control of the West Bank, ".

Right out of Bibi's mouth when he was much younger. At the 4:00 minute to 4:30 mark.  Much earlier than his 2016 statement, we can go back 20-30 years for this gem.  Don't take my word on it,  take his words!  This whole thing is Bibi defending the one state solution. This was back in 1978. This video has been posted by a few here. And unfortunately Rue, you are wrong on his stance and the timeline regarding that stance. In the end, neither side wants a two state solution.  The way the map has changed with the ever increasing building of the settlements in the occupied territories, making it difficult for the Palestinians to do anything. Going with a one state is not going to help, because then that turns into a civil war if Israel declares the the contested areas for themselves. The racism between the two groups won't go away overnight with either solution, and we should not expect that to be the case either.

This man (whatever his real last name is) was never in support of a two state solution.

"But the stumbling block to the road for peace is this demand for a PLO state which will mean more war, which will mean more violence in the Middle East. And I think , I sincerely believe that if this demand is abandoned, we can have real and genuine peace.

[bush_cheney2004]

55 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

...We should also impose upon Israel to abandon all 'settlements' and divide the whole region (without inside influence) to 'states' that have boundaries of equal right to a 'contingent' land with part of it connecting to Mediterranean access. Walls should be torn down as well. 

To me, IF this cannot be done, we need to either abandon trade to or from those impeding an actual solution that is not of a genocidal nature. And if this is still not being done, we should completely destroy the whole area and 'reset' it for the rest of the world to have a peace and chance to resettle it with fair people. 

 

Your proposed solution(s) presume an objective and independent power to do such things, but this is not reality.   The sovereign state of Israel and allied nations have more than enough power to resist any such measures, as there is no collective "we" to implement your proposals.

The Unites States will continue to advance its own interests in the region, backed up by military and economic power.   There currently is no "we" to change this, as any UN action would require U.S. alignment and resources.

[Scott Mayers]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Your proposed solution(s) presume an objective and independent power to do such things, but this is not reality.   The sovereign state of Israel and allied nations have more than enough power to resist any such measures, as there is no collective "we" to implement your proposals.

The Unites States will continue to advance its own interests in the region, backed up by military and economic power.   There currently is no "we" to change this, as any UN action would require U.S. alignment and resources.

Then there IS no solution by your view....or none that you believe could serve anything other than whatever should incidentally BE the case. [...like whether we could control whether an asteroid might hit us tomorrow, for instance.] Is that a fair assumption?

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Scott Mayers said:

Then there IS no solution by your view....or none that you believe could serve anything other than whatever should incidentally BE the case. [...like whether we could control whether an asteroid might hit us tomorrow, for instance.] Is that a fair assumption?

 

My position is that there is no collective "we" to develop and execute any such solution, for Israel-Palestine or for an asteroid collision.   Your proposals are based on a false presumption...no such framework exists.

Reality presents the most obvious and historically consistent "solution" for the impasse, continued conflict and competition to conclusion as some future date.

We already know what the "solution" was in North America and many other areas of the world.

[marcus]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

We already know what the "solution" was in North America and many other areas of the world.

Why the need to go back so far to try to justify the ugly actions by the colonial power?

A better solution, or the eventual solution will be what happened a lot more recently. Which is when a racist colonialist power was pushed aside in South Africa.

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, marcus said:

Why the need to go back so far to try to justify the ugly actions by the colonial power?

A better solution, or the eventual solution will be what happened a lot more recently. Which is when a racist colonialist power was pushed aside in South Africa.

 

There is no need to "justify" anything.

The "racist colonial" power(s) have not been pushed aside in Canada or the United States.

South Africa developed its reserve model from Canada's example.

Edited December 10, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[Scott Mayers]

6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

My position is that there is no collective "we" to develop and execute any such solution, for Israel-Palestine or for an asteroid collision.   Your proposals are based on a false presumption...no such framework exists.

Then you have no 'solution'. You're just helping to conserve the present situation with a claim that no one can do anything about it. Just ignore this thread then. It's intended to discuss IF we 'can' do something given any hope to do anything. Otherwise we may as well be talking about whether Atlantas citizens should permit Plato to speak on its behalf.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Scott Mayers said:

Then you have no 'solution'. You're just helping to conserve the present situation with a claim that no one can do anything about it. Just ignore this thread then. It's intended to discuss IF we 'can' do something given any hope to do anything. Otherwise we may as well be talking about whether Atlantas citizens should permit Plato to speak on its behalf.

 

"We" already have a "solution" in place...continued dominance by Israel and allied interests until a compromise is negotiated or one side capitulates.

As far as the power of "we", one should ask why there isn't a declared Palestinian state already.    That's what "we" has done to date...nothing.

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Not a member of the literati, evidently. "Good heavens... a Yale man"   

Feel free to educate me about what eating blood has to do with retaliation in the context I used it in.  I thought sapper's attempt to be disingenuous was pathetic but before you carry on any further - you don't think this made it pretty clear who and what was under discussion?

 You see the little back arrows in the upper right hand corners of quoted text boxes?  You should use them now and then.