Jerusalem is Israel's Capital...

[Scott Mayers]

What function does Trumps announcement serve to you one way or the other? Would it not be irrelevant to you whether Trump announced or not? If not, then you have no additional factor to add other than to try to distract anyone speaking against a country that you prefer others to hopefully not notice is doing wrong by those who DO think there is an issue.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Scott Mayers said:

What function does Trumps announcement serve to you one way or the other? Would it not be irrelevant to you whether Trump announced or not? If not, then you have no additional factor to add other than to try to distract anyone speaking against a country that you prefer others to hopefully not notice is doing wrong by those who DO think there is an issue.

 

Trump made a campaign promise, same an many previous U.S. presidents.

This makes Trump more...ummm..."presidential".

You can speak all you wish, but you do not have the luxury of silencing me or any other forum members.

Canada and the United States support Israel in many ways...right or wrong.   They even toss Palestine a bone once in a while for appearances sake.

I am consistent and congruent on this matter, making no excuses for why imperialist policies in North America should be accepted beyond the common denominator of...POWER.

[Scott Mayers]

I'm not 'silencing' you. You appear to be trying to do that to me, is more of what I was saying, because you are not actually arguing but restating a kind of "Bush"-like appeal. ...like when Bush asserted WMDs of Sadam or repeating his link to Al Qaeda. If you actually believe in nothing LESS than this kind of argument, I'm saying that your approach for ALL other arguments should be consistently to STATE your view without anything more to add. I don't believe this is so and why I doubt that you are sincerely arguing but emoting for some other personal interest you don't wish to share. I get it if that is the case. I just don't believe you're being serious.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Scott Mayers said:

I'm not 'silencing' you.

 

Correct...because you cannot silence me.

There is nothing special about my position with respect to Israel, or yours.   I prefer reality over fantasy, but that's just me.

If you choose to engage such topics in this forum, please be prepared for opposing viewpoints without regard for a hidden agenda.

I don't care why you are critical of Israel or Trump's embassy "announcement".

Play the game....or not.

[OftenWrong]

4 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

I'm not 'silencing' you. You appear to be trying to do that to me, is more of what I was saying, because you are not actually arguing but restating a kind of "Bush"-like appeal. ...like when Bush asserted WMDs of Sadam or repeating his link to Al Qaeda. If you actually believe in nothing LESS than this kind of argument, I'm saying that your approach for ALL other arguments should be consistently to STATE your view without anything more to add. I don't believe this is so and why I doubt that you are sincerely arguing but emoting for some other personal interest you don't wish to share. I get it if that is the case. I just don't believe you're being serious.

First, thanks for posting. But from the OP - you asked "What do you guys think?" I find it refreshing to hear differing views, both in agreement and disagreement. If you post here you will get some of that. If you only want agreement, there is another forum for that (where the whole group coos in unison to the melody of "Kumbaya"...)

[Scott Mayers]

3 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

First, thanks for posting. But from the OP - you asked "What do you guys think?" I find it refreshing to hear differing views, both in agreement and disagreement. If you post here you will get some of that. If you only want agreement, there is another forum for that (where the whole group coos in unison to the melody of "Kumbaya"...)

I already 'got' her view. She just wasn't trying to add NEW information or figured that I didn't hear her (?) I PREFER disagreement with a better challenge, even if  for arguments sake those who might agree with me.

[bush_cheney2004]

6 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

I already 'got' her view. She just wasn't trying to add NEW information or figured that I didn't hear her (?) I PREFER disagreement with a better challenge, even if  for arguments sake those who might agree with me.

 

No, I answered yours and others' questions (directed at me) with responses that are counter to your world view and value system.

Do you really think that "we" should be dictating how Jerusalem should be instantiated and governed, or have the right to do so ?

Why doesn't Israel have prerogative to determine where its capital city should exist, same as any other nation ?

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[Scott Mayers]

23 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

No, I answered yours and others' questions (directed at me) with responses that are counter to your world view and value system.

Do you really think that "we" should be dictating how Jerusalem should be instantiated and governed, or have the right to do so ?

Why doesn't Israel have prerogative to determine where its capital city should exist, same as any other nation ?

 

You merely 'insulted' me by declaring some delusion above ('reality over fantasy') which is merely a non-sequitur given it doesn't ESTABLISH your 'reality' valid AND mine 'invalid'. Thus, you're just stating, not arguing. All that is "counter" to me is that you don't seem to have ANY reason other than a 'might is right' argument. 

"We" should be attentive to the FACTS that Israel is established on a Jewish-only state (with token support to those who allow them to) and threaten the world both there and here by the nature of the West to be 'agreeing' to their (Israel's) intolerance. If we 'shouldn't' be 'dictating', then not even the U.S. 'should be dictating' the 'support' as it CLEARLY asserts violation AGAINST not only the Palestinians but to ALL Muslims worldwide who view Jerusalem as their own. If both are 'wrong', which I contend the rest of the world stand by, we CAN resolve the issue by isolating the capital (both would agree its their own) and set up a 'republic' with the two states. 

 

The nature of Israel, IN THE POWER, to maintain this.....along with the support of us here, is extremely violent and justifies any retribution. Or does it not matter whether terroristic activities continue here or anywhere else in the world. If the Israelis ARE the 'supreme' elements of beings they think they are, then they would have intellectually derived this. I know they have. But then it indicates their OWN HATRED of Muslims WITH PROOF! And the complicity of the U.S. or any others of their support, the same is true. We support their EQUAL RIGHT TO USE FORCE AT ALL COSTS upon us in any way the WORKS. 

And THIS is what you have to try to prove of yourself as a member of our states here in North America. If YOU don't care, why should anyone care whether you get violated in kind. I might chance to 'look the other way' too. Is that what you appeal to?

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Scott Mayers

[bush_cheney2004]

40 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

You merely 'insulted' me by declaring some delusion above ('reality over fantasy') which is merely a non-sequitur given it doesn't ESTABLISH your 'reality' valid AND mine 'invalid'. Thus, you're just stating, not arguing. All that is "counter" to me is that you don't seem to have ANY reason other than a 'might is right' argument.

 

You can choose to be insulted if you please....reality is that Jerusalem is Israel's capital city.   Jerusalem D.C. is fantasy.

'Might is right' is a valid argument, demonstrated by thousands of years of human civilization...to this day.

My argument is just as valid as yours.

 

Quote

"We" should be attentive to the FACTS that Israel is established on a Jewish-only state (with token support to those who allow them to) and threaten the world both there and here by the nature of the West to be 'agreeing' to their (Israel's) intolerance. If we 'shouldn't' be 'dictating', then not even the U.S. 'should be dictating' the 'support' as it CLEARLY asserts violation AGAINST not only the Palestinians but to ALL Muslims worldwide who view Jerusalem as their own. If both are 'wrong', which I contend the rest of the world stand by, we CAN resolve the issue by isolating the capital (both would agree its their own) and set up a 'republic' with the two states.

 

So you are OK with using POWER to affect you own agenda and value system, but would prefer that Israel refrain from doing so ?

There is nothing special about Jews, Muslims, or Christians coveting the holy city of Jerusalem that would override geo-political realities, backed by power.

 

Quote

The nature of Israel, IN THE POWER, to maintain this.....along with the support of us here, is extremely violent and justifies any retribution. Or does it not matter whether terroristic activities continue here or anywhere else in the world. If the Israelis ARE the 'supreme' elements of beings they think they are, then they would have intellectually derived this. I know they have. But then it indicates their OWN HATRED of Muslims WITH PROOF! And the complicity of the U.S. or any others of their support, the same is true. We support their EQUAL RIGHT TO USE FORCE AT ALL COSTS upon us in any way the WORKS.

 

Not sure what you are saying here, but yes, conflict will continue with powers exerting force in several ways to preserve dominance in the region and access to resources.   This circumstance is not isolated to just Israel or the Middle East.   As for Muslims, hatred and terrorism can be found in spades regardless of Israel's existence or policies.

Palestine will be subjected to Israel's POWER as long as it is an existential threat.

 

Quote

And THIS is what you have to try to prove of yourself as a member of our states here in North America. If YOU don't care, why should anyone care whether you get violated in kind. I might chance to 'look the other way' too. Is that what you appeal to?

 

Again, it doesn't matter if I care or not.   "Terrorism" has been a constant for many decades in my nation and others for a very long time.   Focusing on Israel and/or "Muslims" seems to be a very narrow and limited view.

Israel doesn't have the North American luxury of an already conquered and subjugated native population.

Edited December 8, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[OftenWrong]

16 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

I already 'got' her view. She just wasn't trying to add NEW information or figured that I didn't hear her (?) I PREFER disagreement with a better challenge, even if  for arguments sake those who might agree with me.

Nonsense, I think plenty of new information was given. The problem in that region is more complex than what you are alluding to in your first post, that Trump is on a suicide mission because of impending impeachment. That, most assuredly is not the reason for his move on this. In recent news, both parties voted against a motion to impeach Donald Trump-

Trump impeachment vote fails overwhelmingly

12/06/2017
House Democrats overwhelmingly joined Republicans on Wednesday to defeat an attempt to impeach President Donald Trump.

Information was given that:
- Jerusalem is already the self-declared capital of Israel.
- Other nations have recognized this.
- Several past US presidents and congress expressed their support for this, even through the passage of laws.
- All countries have the right to self-determination, including the right to choose which city within their borders is the capital.
- Comparison of Israel with Pangea are not well founded. May I also add that Pangea existed 100's of millions of years ago, long before any humans existed to live on it.
- Former Canadian governments have expressed similar support for this idea.

... just to name a few of the informative points raised here by forum member @bush_cheney2004! 
 

[marcus]

4 hours ago, Bonam said:

Who is talking about east Jerusalem? 

Israel recognizes East Jerusalem as there's. Contrary to international law. The question is, what does it mean when Trump says U.S. recognizes Jerusalem as the capital and will move its embassy. There is no mention of East or West Jerusalem. It sounds like Trump is repeating Israeli talking points by not distinguishing between the two.

 

[Scott Mayers]

"....reality is that Jerusalem is Israel's capital city."

And,....the reality is that Jerusalem is Palestine's capital city. There! Did I now win because I say it last? Does it convince you differently?   

"might is right" is fine if you don't mind it imposed on you. This IS nature's default prior to "civilization". Just don't let me catch you complaining about any injustice and expect me not to throw this claim back at you elsewhere. 

The problem becomes one of a subset of people who are "indifferent" to conditions they don't perceive locally or even beneficial (as wars and disasters tend to foster economic gains for many). But the lowest common denominator of those who exist in defiance of some convention to a LOGIC solution only empower the EMOTIONAL ones and prevents civilization and peace that defaults to those who already view this preference. It makes those people the major factor that prevents even a potential 'majority' of favor for peace impossible. 

I think you need to rethink this one. I'll have to see how you argue on other issues you may find more compassion for to determine if this isn't just some touchy personal factor rather than some logical misfire. 

 

 

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, marcus said:

Israel recognizes East Jerusalem as there's. Contrary to international law. The question is, what does it mean when Trump says U.S. recognizes Jerusalem as the capital and will move its embassy. There is no mention of East or West Jerusalem. It sounds like Trump is repeating Israeli talking points by not distinguishing between the two.

 

I don't think so....the U.S. would build its embassy in West Jerusalem, per U.S. federal law (site location).

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Embassy_Act_of_1995

Edited December 8, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[Bonam]

Just now, marcus said:

Israel recognizes East Jerusalem as there's. Contrary to international law. The question is, what does it mean when Trump says U.S. recognizes Jerusalem as the capital and will move its embassy. There is no mention of East or West Jerusalem. It sounds like Trump is repeating Israeli talking points by not distinguishing between the two.

I think it's obvious the embassy will be located (if it's ever moved at all) in the undisputed parts of Jerusalem west of the 1949 border. There is no point in saying the US recognized the Israeli part of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, because if you are talking about the capital of Israel, you obviously aren't talking about the Palestinian part of Jerusalem. Trump isn't exactly known for the precision of his language, so it's not exactly surprising that he failed to specify things to the degree that you might wish. I'm sure the US will clarify what exactly it means in the near future. 

[OftenWrong]

51 minutes ago, marcus said:

Israel recognizes East Jerusalem as there's. Contrary to international law. The question is, what does it mean when Trump says U.S. recognizes Jerusalem as the capital and will move its embassy. There is no mention of East or West Jerusalem. It sounds like Trump is repeating Israeli talking points by not distinguishing between the two.

 

 

The international legal and diplomatic status of Jerusalem is unresolved. Legal scholars disagree on how to resolve the Israeli–Palestinian dispute about it under international law.Many United Nations (UN) member states formally adhere to the United Nations proposal that Jerusalem should have an international status.
Positions on Jerusalem

Edited December 8, 2017 by OftenWrong
add link

[bush_cheney2004]

9 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

...I think you need to rethink this one. I'll have to see how you argue on other issues you may find more compassion for to determine if this isn't just some touchy personal factor rather than some logical misfire.

 

...and I think I have expressed my position on this topic quite well.

I do not seek your agreement or approval.

No country knows the price for "peace" more than Israel.

Edited December 8, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[Scott Mayers]

13 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Nonsense, I think plenty of new information was given. The problem in that region is more complex than what you are alluding to in your first post, that Trump is on a suicide mission because of impending impeachment. That, most assuredly is not the reason for his move on this. In recent news, both parties voted against a motion to impeach Donald Trump-

Trump impeachment vote fails overwhelmingly

12/06/2017
House Democrats overwhelmingly joined Republicans on Wednesday to defeat an attempt to impeach President Donald Trump.

Information was given that:
- Jerusalem is already the self-declared capital of Israel.
- Other nations have recognized this.
- Several past US presidents and congress expressed their support for this, even through the passage of laws.
- All countries have the right to self-determination, including the right to choose which city within their borders is the capital.
- Comparison of Israel with Pangea are not well founded. May I also add that Pangea existed 100's of millions of years ago, long before any humans existed to live on it.
- Former Canadian governments have expressed similar support for this idea.

... just to name a few of the informative points raised here by forum member @bush_cheney2004! 
 

"-Jersusalem is already the self-declared capital of Israel."

Jerusalem is NOT a consolidated entity capable of self-declaration. But let me try too: Jerusalem is MY capital. So now I declared it, I give it to the world and no religious organ can impose laws that favor nor disfavor other groups. The people of my city now have no state but the world's. 

 

"-Other nations have recognized this."

I'm not "other nations". ...

I don't 'recognize' it. I wasn't even invited to the meeting to vote. I guess they forgot to invite potential dissenters.

 

"-Several past US presidents and congress expressed their support for this, even through the passage of laws." 

And 'several' past AND present leaders also disagree  and even passed these into their own laws.

 

"- All countries have the right to self-determination, including the right to choose which city within their borders is the capital."

"Country" requires the inhabitants to have the vote to allow some set of distinct owners of some cult to declare they don't have to follow the prior country's rule. If force is all the matters, than 'right' again only refers to 'might'. The 'borders' are the contention. 

 

"- Comparison of Israel with Pangea are not well founded. May I also add that Pangea existed 100's of millions of years ago, long before any humans existed to live on it."

My comparison was to the arbitrary nature of claiming some 'truth' by merely labeling it when the meaning is not tied to its label. Asserting "X is Y" is a definition of Y by X that 'begs' without justification. If you use outside meanings to X and Y, you need to define what X is independently, what Y is, and how they are related. Thus, the statement, "Pangea is the name of the continent that existed billions of years ago", is definition begging because it only ties the label, "Pangea", to that entity. That entity, the continent that existed billions of years ago doesn't prove nor disprove whether anyone was there to assert it UNIQUELY as named Pangea. [like whether a sound of a falling tree 'exists' if it is defined by the act of hearing it.]

Claiming that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is the same. It begs your personal definition of it by opinion but doesn't establish whether the city is NOT the capital of the Palestinians UNIQUELY. It just begs your preference without argument. 

 

"- Former Canadian governments have expressed similar support for this idea."

This is an irrelevant appeal. Former Palestinian governments would express a different view.

 

 

 

 

[Scott Mayers]

18 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

...and I think I have expressed my position on this topic quite well.

I do not seek your agreement or approval.

No country knows the price for "peace" more than Israel.

How?

[bush_cheney2004]

11 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

How?

 

Seriously ?    Have you forgotten your "Hitler" reference so soon ?

Jerusalem is the capital city of Israel, just in case that is in any doubt.

[OftenWrong]

2 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

"-Jersusalem is already the self-declared capital of Israel."

Jerusalem is NOT a consolidated entity capable of self-declaration. But let me try too: Jerusalem is MY capital. So now I declared it, I give it to the world and no religious organ can impose laws that favor nor disfavor other groups. The people of my city now have no state but the world's. 

You are entitled to your opinion, but for the debate to carry on one must be founded in reality. That is not meant to be an insult, but what you are talking about here is fiction. There is not much point to discuss such "fantastic" ideas. In reality you cannot claim it is your capital unless it is within your borders. That's just... fundamental.

Quote

Pangea is the name of the continent that existed billions of years ago", is definition begging because it only ties the label, "Pangea", to that entity. That entity, the continent that existed billions of years ago doesn't prove nor disprove whether anyone was there to assert it UNIQUELY as named Pangea. [like whether a sound of a falling tree 'exists' if it is defined by the act of hearing it.]

Claiming that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is the same. It begs your personal definition of it by opinion but doesn't establish whether the city is NOT the capital of the Palestinians UNIQUELY.

Palestinians are a people that have no country. The country is Israel. Jerusalem can still be their capital, but only in the sense that it belongs to the nation of Israel.

Quote

"- Former Canadian governments have expressed similar support for this idea."

This is an irrelevant appeal. Former Palestinian governments would express a different view.

This point shows that Donald Trump did not unilaterally make this decision. A number of other world leaders past and present have done likewise. As is often the case by pro-leftist media these days, they are not lying but they are omitting parts of the truth, seemingly to increase outrage and fear directed solely at Donald Trump.

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

You are entitled to your opinion, but for the debate to carry on one must be founded in reality.

 

Agreed...we are entitled to our own opinions, but we are not entitled to our own facts.

[Scott Mayers]

7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Seriously ?    Have you forgotten your "Hitler" reference so soon ?

Jerusalem is the capital city of Israel, just in case that is in any doubt.

So Hitler's Holocaust justifies the Jews to now have carte blanche victimhood rights to now BE the same? Where is the German Nationalists among Israel? Hitler (and/or the party as a whole) actually formulated an antithesis to the Jews by embracing the kind of National Socialist he saw worked effectively within the Jewish community. That is, their philosophy was based on embracing in reflection, a solidarity among the German aboriginals by fostering a 'history' and 'religious cult' that granted "Providence" (Nature and their 'god') to formulate a ZION exclusive of all other peoples. 

Any wrong by one time against people does not justify payback to the others unrelated to the cause of harm, NOR to the offspring of those children. 

Is your "Jerusalem" ALL of it (East and West)?

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Scott Mayers said:

So Hitler's Holocaust justifies the Jews to now have carte blanche victimhood rights to now BE the same?

 

No, they have "carte blanche" to make sure it never happens to Jews again.

Plus I just wanted to trap you with your own Godwin's Law moment.

 

Quote

Is your "Jerusalem" ALL of it (East and West)?

 

I don't control Jerusalem....ask Israel.

My country would locate an embassy in West Jerusalem if it ever happens.

 

[Scott Mayers]

17 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

You are entitled to your opinion, but for the debate to carry on one must be founded in reality. That is not meant to be an insult, but what you are talking about here is fiction. There is not much point to discuss such "fantastic" ideas. In reality you cannot claim it is your capital unless it is within your borders. That's just... fundamental.

Begging facts is not proving them. Do you not recognize the borders prior to 1947?

 

 

[Omni]

2 minutes ago, Scott Mayers said:

Begging facts is not proving them. Do you not recognize the borders prior to 1947?

Funny how those facts seem to be conveniently ignored. I wonder if anyone has presented them to Donald.