Jerusalem is Israel's Capital...

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

The size of bitch is moot when it has the most powerful asshole on the planet on its side.

Never to the victim of the bitch.

[Rue]

28 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I am not doubting you, however I am questioning you.  And please believe me that I don't know as much on this topic as some might think, so I am not being naive. 

1.  I thought the Rabin/Arafat peace talks under Clinton were about both sides recognizing the other, based on a two-state solution ?

2. Is the PA not a continuation of Arafat's government in this regard ?

Also - if, as I have been reading, there has never been an intention to place the capital on occupied territory then why is this idea so controversial ?  Is it the symbolism ?  I always thought the controversy came out of the site of the capital being on disputed land.  

I value your objectivity, and ask that you try to frame your reply in both the pro- and con- centrist opinions on the Jerusalem issue please.

In regards to 1, Arafat openly was caught on South African radio saying any peace talks he was engaging

in were a sham and he had no intention of following through with a two state solution and was using it as a stalling

tactic to re-arm. When the statement went public he openly stated he had bargained in bad faith all along and the US and Israel

should have known he would never agree to anything but a Muslim state in Jordan, Israel and the West Bank-Gaza and he was  only engaging in talks to give his forces time to re-arm.

In regards to 2, Abbas has reconfirmed 1 and stood up in his PA assembly giving a standing ovation to fellow members calling for war to take back Israel and he continually repeats the only way he will recognize Israel is as a NON Jewish state which MUST take back ANYONE who claims to be a Palestinian WITHOUT PROOF of being Palestinian provided they are NOT Jewish. This return of "Palestinians" would include being given land and financial compensation and this would be a condition precedent to recognizing this non Jewish state. He has said this would be the first step in then amalgamating it into a greater Sharia law state with Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza.

He has stated NO rights to non Zionist Jews of theWest Bank (250,000 Hasidic Jews) and they would have to leave or face dire consequences.

This is the moderate Abbas and this is what his constitution says and his repeat speeches say. Hamas only differs on that it would remove all Jews from the West Bank and Israel by death or forced expulsion to European nations.

3. Israel prior to the creation of Israel stated and has always maintained ALL of Jerusalem as its capital. Rabin, Olmert, Ehud Barak and Shimon Peres all stated they would agree to sharing the capital as part of a comprehensive peace settlement.

4. The Jerusalem capital sharing issue ended when the Muslim clergy sitting on a board with Christian and Jewish clergy walked out and said they would never agree to Jews or Christians having access to the Mount or Jerusalem being governed by anything but a sharia law nation.

5. The Arab League of Nations, PA, Hamas, does not recognize Jewish right to land ownership and sovereignty anywhere in the Middle East stating the Muslim religion and its sharia laws can not permit such a thing. Likewise to all other non Muslims.

Conclusion I already have done the last thing you asked.

In a comprehensive peace settlement all 3 religions would have to be recognized as having equal rights. That might require more than a religious council that failed.

Its conceivable a second Muslim Palestinian state on the West Bank could use East Jerusalem as its capital. There would be room. However from a practical perspective it won't recognize the Christian land titles where the buildings would end up being situated like Israel does if it were to be in the East side of Jerusalem.

Next, the automatic assumption Israel can not have its capital in Jerusalem is part of the larger believe it should not exist as a Jewish state. It it was a Muslim state no one would question it being in Jerusalem.

The fact is the Ottoman Empire inherited occupation of Jerusalem. Then the British illegally created Trans Jordan. Britain lied and said TransJordan would be a temporary state. It became a permanent state. It was called the Palestinian state of Transjordan. To this day it has a constitution forbidding Jewish citizenship. It unilaterally was given 90% of the areas where Jordan, Israel and the West Bank were illegally in violation of the British mandate. Churchill admitted in his memoirs the British lied deliberately and created the illegal state of TransJordan to prevent and thwart a Jewish state. He also stated he flooded the West Bank and where Israel is with non Palestinian Muslims to create the impossibility of Jews having a majority population.

In fact on the day WW2 was declared by the British there was supposed to be a League of Nations conference to declare TransJordan illegal and find a new country to oversee the creation of a Jewish state where Jordan, the West Bank and Israel are.

WW2 broke out and so this never happened. After WW2, the League of Nations disbanded, the UN came about and appointed Elenor Roosevelt Ambassador for displaced Jewish refugees. To make a long story short at that point Europe and the UN ignored her and laughed at her. The Arab nations seeing Jews coming to Palestine had told their European colonial operators and the US that there would be no Jewish state or no oil. Britain had placed colonial governments in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq. It artificially created Iran jamming together three feuding nations, one Kurd, one Shiite, one Sunni to  justify its continuing presence posing as mediator of all 3.

This same formula was used in Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Jordan by the British. In Jordan and Iraq Britain placed two sons of of Faisal the Arab they double crossed. Faisal had agreed to a peaceful Muslim nation next to a Jewish nation. The British and French fearing that alliance would exclude the need for French or British help, lied to Faisal. The French lied to Faisal and said rip up the agreement the Jews were preparing to double cross you. Faisal did. Weitzman who he signed the agreement with called him and said you've been lied to. Faisal said  no, and that very day was arrested by the French who unilaterally declared Syria and Lebanon independent nations under their colonial control. Both nations were made up of many feuding factions. To placate Faisal, one son was made King of Jordan, the other Iraq, and the remainder of the Faisal klan was given Saudi Arabia. When WW2 broke out Egypt, Syria and Iraw formed an alliance with Hitler and the Mufti of Jerusalem in Palestine went to Berlin where he lived in a stolen Jewish home broadcasting daily to Arabs in Palestine to fight the British in Palestine and while they were at it wipe out any Jews.

After WW2 he fled to the Nazi supporting regime of Iraq.

Iraq and Syria created Baath parties based on Nazism. Nasser and Sadat in Egypt based all their policies on Hitler as they both admitted in their memoirs.

Jerusalem was never part of any sovereign nation.

When Jews in Palestine were abandoned after WW2 the Arab League unilaterally declared war on them. The only reason East Jerusalem got separated from West Jerusalem was because that is where the war ended. Jordan never claimed sovereignty over Jerusalem, only temporary military occupation which it relinquished in 1967.

From 1949 to 1967 Jordan's soldiers would openly urinate and defecate on Jewish holy sites ridiculing Jews coming to pray. They allowed Muslim civilians to hack pieces off Jewish holy sites and sell them as souvenirs. They looked the other way as Palestinian terrorists used the West Bank and East Jerusalem to launch terror attacks on Jews in West Jerusalem. They did nothing as all the Jewish synagogues in East Jerusalem were burned down and Jews openly killed and  beaten until they left their homes and went on to the West side.

Jerusalem other than the West side in Israel has ever been in a sovereign nation. West Jerusalem and all of Israel is NOT recognized by any Arab nation, any Muslim nation or the Palestinian terror cells and appointed reps.

I can tell you Muslim clergy to this day protest if Christians or Jews try go to the Mount to pray and the IDF has unfairly to prevent riots let the Muslim clergy have their way to avoid fights.

Arafat denied not once but many times that there was a Jewish temple in Jerusalem as has Abbas. According to Abbas in his rewrite of history, since Jerusalem was in fact first created by Canaanites before the Jews came to Jerusalem long before Christians and then Muslims, in his magic rewrite of history Canaanites are Palestinians and thus he uses that argument to say NO part of Jerusalem can be part of a Jewish state or even be accessible to Jews or Christians without a sharia law nation controlling Jerusalem.

Most Palestinians and Israelis have co-existed in Jerusalem. The PA and Hamas are not contrary to popular belief popular in Jerusalem because they prevent tourism and they harass Muslims in Jerusalem doing business with Jews of Jerusalem.

The PA does not recognize any Christian land rights, the Israelis do. 90% of East Jerusalem has Christian land titles the PA will not recognize and Israel does.

 

 

 

 

[Rue]

7 hours ago, marcus said:

one side

ugly apartheid settler colony

even uglier imperial power,

other side

stands the glory of a global defiance against that immoral depravity called “Zionism” —

racist, xenophobic, homophobic, anti-Semitic, Islamophobic, climate change denier, serial sexual predator, real estate charlatan, prompted by his ultra Zionist son-in-law and bankruptcy lawyer

other side stands the world —

Resist brothers and sisters in Palestine!

You with your glorious presence in the ugly midst of the occupation of your homeland and the world in solid unwavering solidarity—bearing witness to your righteous cause!

 

 

If anyone doubted you are an extremist and spambot  at least they now know. That script was pathetic.

[eyeball]

58 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Never to the victim of the bitch.

Two bitches you mean.

 

[Altai]

Northern Korea said "There is no country called Israel, so it cant have a capital." 

 

LeL 

[Omni]

2 hours ago, Rue said:

As usual you spew nonsense. Trump can not be impeached for recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

 

That's not what I said, but at least it only took you one line to miss that boat.

[Rue]

13 minutes ago, Omni said:

That's not what I said, but at least it only took you one line to miss that boat.

Bullshit. Scott Mayer started this thread stating that the announcement of Jerusalem being the capital  of Israel and I quote:

"appears as though he maybe setting up for a suicidal fuck you before he gets impeached "

You responded to Mayer stating:

"As mentioned the other thread has discussed this issue a fair bit. And impeachment is certainly part of the discourse."

So I responded stating you spew nonsense and that Trump could not be impeached for recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

You want to play games Omni. Then let's play. When in my comment to you did I misquote you hmmm? Where did I say you said Trump can be impeached for recognizing the capital of Israel hmmm?

You are in such haste to defend your crap you engage in the same false assumption you claim I engaged in.

Anything else?

 

 

 

[Omni]

8 minutes ago, Rue said:

You want to play games Omni. Then let's play. When in my comment to you did I misquote you hmmm? Where did I say you said Trump can be impeached for recognizing the capital of Israel hmmm?

You didn't misquote, you misunderstood. Carry on with your game.

[eyeball]

I see the usual suspects are up to their typical miscomprehension tricks this morning.

[GostHacked]

Bibi also said he would never go for a two state solution. Something him and Arafat would have in common.

And the ever changing map of Israeli borders shows they are not willing to go with a two state solution. Their actions speak louder than any works denying that. The Jewish settlements in the occupied areas are proof to that.

Now is the capital just the west part of Jerusalem? Or the whole thing?  I recall Obama supporting the notion of the capital being an undivided Jerusalem.

 

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

I'm not really getting what I wanted out of this thread, on the other hand I am: politicians lie, nobody will give an inch, and nobody will lose face.  As such, poverty, desperation and terror will persist and everybody there prefers that situation to the alternative.

You are welcome to your ways, I suppose.

[Rue]

On 12/7/2017 at 1:18 AM, marcus said:

Three of the biggest donors in U.S. politics are billionaires Ronald Lauder, Sheldon Adelson (historically republican donors) and Haim Saban (historically, a democratic donor). 

Their number one agenda is Israel. Or as they are called, Israeli Firsters. 

 

 

I now have time to respond to your bullshit which singles out Jews.

To show how full of crap you are in your singling out of Jews I start with this list and ask you to explain how you ignored all these non Jews?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/us/elections/top-presidential-donors-campaign-money.html

Interestingly you choose one Jew who does not even support Trump and came up with 2 others and  provide no source to compare what they contribute to others as I did. . You do engage in bullshit that singles out only Jews who donated then advanced the bullshit Jewish money control conspiracy. Jews are rich they control Trump. Got it. There we  have it. Nothing but money from Jews, let alone 2 Jews is what controls Trump.

You show your true colours. You show vividly how when discussing Israel, you will engage in stereotypes about Jews outside Israel advancing them as part of a Jew control conspiracy. Pathetic.

How about these contributors, are they Jews?

https://www.aol.com/2010/10/13/the-10-biggest-corporate-campaign-contributors-in-u-s-politics/

Go on pick out the Jews from this list:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-07-14/presenting-all-time-top-100-political-donors

Explain about the NON Jews on this list:

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/033116/top-10-corporate-contributors-trump-campaign.asp

Explain about the non Jews on this list:

http://www.ibtimes.com/who-donates-trump-clinton-list-richest-campaign-contributors-includes-hedge-fund-2440008

Where's the Jews on this one?

https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/contributors?cycle=2016&id=N00023864

Pick the Jews from this list:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/12/09/the-six-donors-trump-appointed-to-his-administration-gave-almost-12-million-with-their-families-to-his-campaign-and-the-party/

What about this guy hmm how did you miss him?

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/288377-hindu-american-emerges-as-trump-mega-donor

I take the time on this thread to expose you and the rest of your entourage for what you are-bigots. You don't discuss Israel. You don't discuss peace. You come here to incitement and resentment against Jews using this thread as an excuse to do so.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rue]

37 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

Bibi also said he would never go for a two state solution.

Present the statement he said that. In fact on Feb. 10, 2016, he stated, "  Israel has no choice in the current political reality but to continue its control of the West Bank, ".

Netanyahu has not rejected a two state solution for ever as you suggest. In fact if all  his statements are read in full context if the PA and Hamas recognized Israel as a Jewish state and disarmed, anything is negotiable at that point. That is his actual position. He has stated recently to Trump that as long as violence continues and the PA-Hamas won't recognize Israel's right to be Jewish, all other discussions are moot.

Your attempt to suggest his position is the same as Arafat's is bullshit. He does not support taking over the West Bank and turning it into a Jewish state as the PA and Hamas do taking over Israel and turning it into a Muslim state. You might want to talk to eye about your miscomprehension. He's a tad concerned.

Here is an old article that basically explains for you his actual position and the gamesmanship and rhetoric being played out.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Think-about-it-Netanyahu-and-the-two-state-solution-332888

Netanyahu himself is quote amendable to a two state solution if he could figure out how to disarm terrorists on the West Bank and have the PA and Hamas abandon its notion of turning Israel back into a Muslim state.

Some of his cabinet members believe there is no hope of any peace. The majority of the Knesset does.

Any attempt to pretend you understand his rhetoric and the issues involved is tainted by your need to present an anti Israel dialogue,

Netanyahu and Abbas both say things all the time. What they actually mean when the doors are closed is another story.

Their positions unlike your simplistic stereotyping of the issues are far different.

As much as I detest Abbas and consider him a liar, when doors are closed, I do not know or claim to know what the PA would settle for.  I do know Abbas has no power. He is an aging, tired, weak figurehead who can not afford to sound weak. Likewise Netanyahu has a coalition that would fall apart if he does not sound tough.

No one knows the real flex room behind the rhetoric.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Rue

[Rue]

38 minutes ago, Omni said:

You didn't misquote, you misunderstood. Carry on with your game.

That's right I didn't misquote. Its there for anyone to read and interpret. Watch when you use the vasoline. Things get out of hand real quick.

[Rue]

36 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I see the usual suspects are up to their typical miscomprehension tricks this morning.

I'm no usual suspect. Have the integrity to use my name and explain how I "miscomprehended". Finish it.

Tricks? Hell no. Omni could never afford me.

[Omni]

2 minutes ago, Rue said:

That's right I didn't misquote. Its there for anyone to read and interpret. Watch when you use the vasoline. Things get out of hand real quick.

But you did misunderstand. And why so crude all the time? it's a bit weird.

[Rue]

12 minutes ago, Omni said:

But you did misunderstand. And why so crude all the time? it's a bit weird.

Crude? Vasoline is a crude oil by product. Skip the innocent shit with me. Save it.

 

[bush_cheney2004]

President Trump and Congress will determine U.S. foreign policy for Israel, and that includes billions in foreign aid going to many nations in the region.

Anybody here who doesn't like it is welcome to do a better job...and pay for it.

 

[Scott Mayers]

Too much to respond to today. It appears my 'depth' may too deep for anyone here. I'll try to come back later and possibly try again later tonight.

[Omni]

3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

President Trump and Congress will determine U.S. foreign policy for Israel, and that includes billions in foreign aid going to many nations in the region.

Anybody here who doesn't like it is welcome to do a better job...and pay for it.

 

Not to mention billions in arms to the Saudis. Then go and piss off everybody in the region, and beyond. Brilliant.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Omni said:

Not to mention billions in arms to the Saudis.

 

True...Canada exports billions in arms to the Saudis.  Sunni ways !

[Omni]

16 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

True...Canada exports billions in arms to the Saudis.  Sunni ways !

I'm surprised you didn't try and blame that one on Trudeau too. I guess you knew we'd know better. 

[OftenWrong]

On 08/12/2017 at 9:46 PM, eyeball said:

Yes...retaliation is a bitch too.

Oh to drink hot blood, eh?

[OftenWrong]

18 hours ago, marcus said:

What an apt and perfect closure to the ignominious thievery of Palestine! Zionists deserve this perfect ending to their history of colonial occupation of another people’s homeland! A cesspool of every moral disease in the world, a despicable bastard, loathed by the world, siding with them and declaring a stolen city their capital!

There is an inner rhythm to the arch of justice in this world — imperceptible, quiet, dignified, beautiful — add any other ennobling thought the world celebrates and of which the Zionists are deprived —

Resist brothers and sisters in Palestine! You with your glorious presence in the ugly midst of the occupation of your homeland and the world in solid unwavering solidarity—bearing witness to your righteous cause!

Inshalla, eh?

[marcus]

What a beautiful boy, what a magnificent, brave, bold, courageous boy! Look at the ugliness around him, the vile and violent machinery of death and destruction that is Zionism, that is Israel — and then look at his gloriously raised head, defying his blindfolded sight, set so high towards the heavens —

Who do you think will win this battle? Those ugly thieves, the whole platoon of them, in full military gears, or that boy: pure, simple, bold, the heart of a lion beating in the assured fragility of his bare bones —

Nothing, no cause, is more noble and ennobling today than the Palestinian cause—and no racist occupation of another people’s homeland uglier that the Israeli occupation of Palestine — and here is the evidence of it— all you have to do is to look at this picture —

Just look at that Christlike figure walking tall and blindfolded, towering head and shoulder over his tormentors, with moral superiority over the cowards who have surrounded him —