America under President Trump

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, WestCoastRunner said:

Do you have any studies to prove this is in fact true in Canada. 

Perhaps this should be moved to another thread? 

The Google links OW has provided are a good read.  I recommend them in that they are academic reviews of the challenges of globalization in terms of culture.  As such, the 'failure' seems to be the idea that the core Western value of pluralism will not be surrendered.  If that's what we mean by 'failure' of multiculturalism then I wholeheartedly agree.  However, it is to me a stretch to say that a framework of tolerance and pluralism is a failure because it refuses to give up itself, essentially, to 'other' cultures.

Furthermore, while the European philosophers who gave birth to these values represent Western culture they were writing of universal values.  The success of the American model flowed backwards to Europe, and indeed became an evangelical, moral and global force.  It was never thought to be a captive idea to one culture, but a framework for the 'pursuit of happiness'.  Any idea that Multiculturalism should denigrate such universal values is an aberration of the intent of Multiculturalism IMO and indeed such a strain of Multiculturalism would be, and is, a practical failure. 

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, jacee said:

Multiculturalism isn't something Canada created, it is just a fact that Canada acknowledges. The "isolated cultural groups" you whine about are usuaĺly only 'grouped' by the availability of  cheap or public housing on arrival, and disperse as they prosper and buy homes elsewhere.

Therein is the paradox: multiculturalism can't be considered in isolation from the dominant culture and as such each country has its own flavour of "multi" culturalism.  It's easy to see that political dialogue, social mobility, and pre-existing home culture of acceptance would make a society and arriving peoples more fit to manage cohesion.  As such, as one of OW's papers points out, the actual policy of multiculturalism is meaningless apart from how it plays out on a personal level.

 

[Hal 9000]

49 minutes ago, jacee said:

I find that ridiculous. I don't think you've experienced the neighbourhoods you're talking absolute nonsense about.

Multiculturalism is alive and well in our cities, neighbourhoods, and especially in our schools. 

Certain lower cost neighbourhoods in cities have always been flooded with successive waves of immigrants from the latest international wars, invasions and disasters. Irish, Polish, Czech, Jewish, Italian, Vietnamese, and now Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria  ... The costumes and customs and food smells  change but what is always true is that the kids integrate in schools and are soon indistinguishable from the previous waves of immigrants. The families prosper and move on to better housing ... and a new wave arrives.

Multiculturalism isn't something Canada created, it is just a fact that Canada acknowledges. The "isolated cultural groups" you whine about are usuaĺly only 'grouped' by the availability of  cheap or public housing on arrival, and disperse as they prosper and buy homes elsewhere.

It's a load of nothing, bs, lack of knowledge you spew, and it's dangerous xenophobia, imo.

Multiculturalism isn't failing at all. That's just the ranting mantra of white supremacists.

Actually, it's quite the opposite.  For the most part people of different cultures will live within the general community, but as their numbers grow, they actually become more isolated.  Sure the next generation may speak better english than their parents, but that is a function of necessity - and sometimes a temporary function.  It's not always about low income either, it's about living with those people who have the same culture as them.  

Look at China town, they aren't integrating into western culture and if anything, they have the numbers where they simply don't have to.  A Chinese person can go to Vancouver and have a full life without ever speaking english.  The Indians are better integrated with Canada, but they still prefer to be with their own people and one can look to greater Vancouver for that evidence too.  We could go on down the line, but Vietnamese choose to be isolated and I think it's obvious that the muslims grow more isolated as their numbers grow too.  

Sure we can use the Irish, Polish and Italians as people who have integrated, but that's because their cultures aren't too dissimilar to what we've created in Canada.  It's stunningly naive and arrogant to think that people with a different religion, race, language and culture, will drop all that and assume Canadian values as their numbers increase. 

[Omni]

12 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

Actually, it's quite the opposite.  For the most part people of different cultures will live within the general community, but as their numbers grow, they actually become more isolated

I don't know where you live but I spent a number of my younger years growing up in Toronto, in an area known as "the beaches" which was/is one of the most diverse multicultural regions in the country. and I always felt welcomed in whichever area of that neighborhood I traveled to. The parents spoke English as best they could while the children were fluent. The atmosphere was pleasant, welcoming, interesting. You could learn things about foreign lands without having to buy a plane ticket. and the foods were much more interesting than whatever Canadian cuisine is. I celebrate the concept of a diverse culture. No need to hide under your bed. One main reason people from the far corners come here is because they respect and admire the standards of our legal system and for the most part support it as much as those of us born here. And who doesn't love a good curry?

[Argus]

14 hours ago, Hal 9000 said:

 Trump has heard 100's of people slag him every waking moment of every day for over a year now - it means nothing to him,

No, he's not exactly Mister Sensitive. Have you ever wondered why a man who spent his life partying and is now 71 has no real friends? His entire life has been one of desperately seeking approval, and never receiving it. His apartment in Trump Tower looks like something from the palace of Versailles, because he thinks that will impress people (it just looks gaudy and tasteless).  Everything he's ever done has been to try to impress people. But he's so shallow, low-class, petty, vindictive and dishonest that the upper classes who he's always desperately courted have never done more than sneer at him. Manhattan is the richest island in the world, and it voted 86% for Clinton, not their fellow rich guy Trump. The people who knew Trump, who know Trump, don't like him and don't respect him.

[Argus]

12 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Racial intolerance among all groups has increased in the big urban areas, a failure of multiculturalism.

Racism is more likely in close contact with minorities than in distant, rural areas where there are none. 

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, Argus said:

Racism is more likely in close contact with minorities than in distant, rural areas where there are none. 

I find the opposite.  Small town folk fear the erosion of 'their' values.  Certainly San Francisco and New York seem to espouse openness to 'minorities' over the rockbed Trump supporters between the coasts.  

[Argus]

2 hours ago, jacee said:

The "isolated cultural groups" you whine about are usuaĺly only 'grouped' by the availability of  cheap or public housing on arrival, and disperse as they prosper and buy homes elsewhere.

Do you ever go to restaurants or bars? I do, all the time. And aside from work lunches (Ie, people from this or that department or agency or employer celebrating a birthday or promotion) what I'm struck by is the tables are virtually always racially segregated. In fact, often enough the restaurant is racially segregated. Like, people from other ethnic communities don't go to the same restaurants and bars as I do. When they do, they go together. So you have a table with Asian people, and a table with Black people and a table with white people. I don't often see mixed tables except of people on a work lunch.

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, Argus said:

 I don't often see mixed tables except of people on a work lunch.

That's a fair observation,  Mine is that young people loitering at the Eaton Centre appear to be remarkably diverse in their groupings.  Whether it signifies anything to the larger population can only be conjecture.  To me the only significant question is whether the Western model will endure when absorbing Eastern groups.

[Argus]

32 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

That's a fair observation,  Mine is that young people loitering at the Eaton Centre appear to be remarkably diverse in their groupings.  Whether it signifies anything to the larger population can only be conjecture.  To me the only significant question is whether the Western model will endure when absorbing Eastern groups.

Agreed. Thus my focus on culture, values and religious extremism which supports values which are antithetical to western values. I'm not super worried about Chinese, for example, since they don't have a foreign religion to support foreign cultural beliefs. I am worried, however, about the influence China has on its diaspora.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, Argus said:

 I am worried, however, about the influence China has on its diaspora.

Agreed.  Every point of cultural integration has its own challenges and China, being a cohesive nation with strong national pride, is another one.

[Argus]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Agreed.  Every point of cultural integration has its own challenges and China, being a cohesive nation with strong national pride, is another one.

I'm not worried about China being a cohesive nation with national pride. I'm worried about China being a hostile foreign power run by a corrupt and ruthless dictatorship. All those Chinese-Canadian businessmen crowding in to see Trudeau and his ministers for whatever fee they charge aren't doing so on their own behalf but because they've been instructed to do so by China.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, Argus said:

1) I'm worried about China being a hostile foreign power run by a corrupt dictatorship.

2) All those Chinese-Canadian businessmen crowding in to see Trudeau and his ministers for whatever fee they charge aren't doing so on their own behalf but because they've been instructed to do so by China.

1) I suspect that self-organization will eventually present a kind of democratic option to China.  Central planning from every level, without input, is prone to expensive failure.  But I concur: worry.

2) 'hostile' and 'looking to invest' are two attributes that are at odds.  Although globalization is not a panacea against conflict, it does bind governments and economies together.

[Argus]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

2) 'hostile' and 'looking to invest' are two attributes that are at odds.  Although globalization is not a panacea against conflict, it does bind governments and economies together.

Sure, the way the US was bound together with Latin America in the fifties. Not something I want with us and China, thanks. China has cheated on every trade agreement it's ever made. I don't want to be bound together with an abusive, dishonest, and violence-prone partner.

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

1) Sure, the way the US was bound together with Latin America in the fifties.

2) Not something I want with us and China, thanks. China has cheated on every trade agreement it's ever made. I don't want to be bound together with an abusive, dishonest, and violence-prone partner.

1) Good point, and therein you have discovered the 'secret sauce' of diplomacy.  The sauce is a combination of self-interest and national morality.  Canada and Saudi Arabia dealing arms, the US supporting oppression in Latin America, or supporting regime change in Iran under Carter not knowing it would blow up on them, or the US trying to influence Syria without wanting to go there.  Smarter people than you or I work on this stuff.

2) But jobs.

[Argus]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

But jobs.

It seems to me that all we send them, basically, are raw resources to the tune of about $20 billion a year. They, on the other hand, send us finished products for closer to $68 billion. There is a lot more money and a lot more jobs in the finished products than in raw resources, too. I don't see China being much interested in buying anything much from us that they can make cheaper themselves, so raw resources is going to continue to be the mainstay of our exports. Given the huge trade imbalance you would think it would be the Chinese sucking up to us rather than the reverse but western politicians keep grovelling before them in hopes they'll buy more of our finished products. They aren't going to. Even if they agree to open up their market they won't do it in reality. So we should stop treating them like they're in the drivers seat. We're the customer, they're the supplier.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

9 minutes ago, Argus said:

Even if they agree to open up their market they won't do it in reality. So we should stop treating them like they're in the drivers seat. We're the customer, they're the supplier.

You didn't address Chinese investment in Canada, though.  That's part of it.

[Argus]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You didn't address Chinese investment in Canada, though.  That's part of it.

My discomfort with Chinese investment is mainly on the way we grovel to them and let them do things not in our interests. Letting them buy an abandoned mine, for example is fine, but not bringing in Chinese workers to mine it for export to China. Buying an oil company is okay, as long as we hold them tightly to our pollution and labour laws, but not buying a high tech company which provides communications for the military. That's idiotic.  There is no such thing as a Chinese company which is independent of the government. Any time you deal with a Chinese company you are dealing with the Chinese Communist party.

People keep suggesting they will democratize but things seem to be going in the opposite direction over there, and all they're using the wealth trade brings them for is to modernize their military.

[OftenWrong]

@jacee

Quote

I find that ridiculous. I don't think you've experienced the neighbourhoods you're talking absolute nonsense about.

Multiculturalism is alive and well in our cities, neighbourhoods, and especially in our schools. 

Certain lower cost neighbourhoods in cities have always been flooded with successive waves of immigrants from the latest international wars, invasions and disasters. Irish, Polish, Czech, Jewish, Italian, Vietnamese, and now Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria  ... The costumes and customs and food smells  change but what is always true is that the kids integrate in schools and are soon indistinguishable from the previous waves of immigrants. The families prosper and move on to better housing ... and a new wave arrives.

Multiculturalism isn't something Canada created, it is just a fact that Canada acknowledges. The "isolated cultural groups" you whine about are usuaĺly only 'grouped' by the availability of  cheap or public housing on arrival, and disperse as they prosper and buy homes elsewhere.

It's a load of nothing, bs, lack of knowledge you spew, and it's dangerous xenophobia, imo.

Multiculturalism isn't failing at all. That's just the ranting mantra of white supremacists.

 

Presumably then people like Angela Merkel are also white supremists?

Attempts to build a multicultural society in Germany have "utterly failed", Chancellor Angela Merkel says

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2017 by OftenWrong
added quote by jacee and link

[taxme]

21 hours ago, Omni said:

Yes I can imagine who you Facebook with. But I am a Canadian and I have lived and worked in every province and territory of this country except for PEI. I have also spent a lot of time in the US, mostly in the south. Take a wild ass guess where I heard the word "nigger" far and away the most often. 

Those folks in PEI were a mighty lucky bunch to not have you ever set foot in their province. But hey. 

[Michael Hardner]

https://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/339751/after-10-days-the-mooch-is-out-at-white-house-comms-director/

 

Awwww... The Mooch got fired.   That was my favourite new character !

[taxme]

5 hours ago, Hal 9000 said:

Actually, it's quite the opposite.  For the most part people of different cultures will live within the general community, but as their numbers grow, they actually become more isolated.  Sure the next generation may speak better english than their parents, but that is a function of necessity - and sometimes a temporary function.  It's not always about low income either, it's about living with those people who have the same culture as them.  

Look at China town, they aren't integrating into western culture and if anything, they have the numbers where they simply don't have to.  A Chinese person can go to Vancouver and have a full life without ever speaking english.  The Indians are better integrated with Canada, but they still prefer to be with their own people and one can look to greater Vancouver for that evidence too.  We could go on down the line, but Vietnamese choose to be isolated and I think it's obvious that the muslims grow more isolated as their numbers grow too.  

Sure we can use the Irish, Polish and Italians as people who have integrated, but that's because their cultures aren't too dissimilar to what we've created in Canada.  It's stunningly naive and arrogant to think that people with a different religion, race, language and culture, will drop all that and assume Canadian values as their numbers increase. 

This program and agenda called multiculturalism has been a failure. As you said, Chinese as well as East Indians pretty much can now live and work in the Lower Mainland of Vancouver and pretty much don't have to worry about learning or speaking English anywhere because they are just about everywhere now here in BC and growing.

They all have their own TV,radio stations, newspapers,churches,restaurants,schools,community halls,1000's of businesses and the government will even cater to them and speak their language. How are they ever going to assimilate with a sweet heart deal like that, and especially as their numbers increase they will soon become the majority. The muslims are a prime example of that. They will not assimilate, and have shown that they will not join in the Canadian family. Our present day immigration policy is way out of whack. Watch a swearing in citizen ceremony in most of the big cities and the majority of the new immigrants are mostly all non-white. There is indeed something wrong with that picture.  

Canada needs to go back to our past immigration policy where the majority of our new immigrants came from Britain and Europe and Australia. Presently, 85% of our new immigrants are coming from the third world, and the rest are coming from the Caucasian western countries. Talk about racial suicide. This needs to be reversed to force those third world immigrants to get with the program and start living, and speaking in English, and made to forget from whence they came. They can keep whatever is their culture in their homes but when they leave their homes, speak and act like you are a Canadian. They should not be allowed to treat the English language as a second class language, and to be treated by them as just a minor inconvenience for them to have to do so.   

[taxme]

5 hours ago, Omni said:

I don't know where you live but I spent a number of my younger years growing up in Toronto, in an area known as "the beaches" which was/is one of the most diverse multicultural regions in the country. and I always felt welcomed in whichever area of that neighborhood I traveled to. The parents spoke English as best they could while the children were fluent. The atmosphere was pleasant, welcoming, interesting. You could learn things about foreign lands without having to buy a plane ticket. and the foods were much more interesting than whatever Canadian cuisine is. I celebrate the concept of a diverse culture. No need to hide under your bed. One main reason people from the far corners come here is because they respect and admire the standards of our legal system and for the most part support it as much as those of us born here. And who doesn't love a good curry?

Canadian cuisine and home cooking before the seventies was the food of the day and we all enjoyed it. Having a meal of prime rib with mashed potatoes, corn, gravy and apple pie was a great part of Canadian cuisine way back when and even today. I bet that you were pretty much brought up eating Canadian cuisine, and enjoyed it. There is nothing wrong with eating foods from another culture, variety is good, but don't try and make it sound like Canadian food was the chits to have to eat. 

[Boges]

The Mooch is out. So Spicer and Priebus GFTO because of the Mooch and then the Mooch quits. And Trump is trying his best to get Sessions to quit as AG. 

Has an administration ever had this much turnover in the history of the US? 

[Argus]

50 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

https://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/339751/after-10-days-the-mooch-is-out-at-white-house-comms-director/

 

Awwww... The Mooch got fired.   That was my favourite new character !

I think what bothered Trump was his inappropriate language, and also that he divorced his wife. You know what a family values man Trump is.