Islamophobia in Canada

[Shady]

Only in your fervid imagination.

Stop denying facts.

[eyeball]

What facts am I denying?

Apostates, in the context of the GWOT, we're/are the harem of western backed dictators Muslims are trying to overthrow. Those sorts of apostates probably deserve execution. We keep interfering with that completely natural process.

You should address your own denial before accusing others of being in denial.

[MadisonNY]

Yeah, it's not as bad as the infidelophobia in some other parts of the world, but it does show that there are some a****oles in Canada. Thankfully the majority of the population, just like the majority of Muslims, are not that bad.

I agree, but there's more radical islamists in Canada that we think. :/

[ironstone]

Islamophobia in Canada?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_patrols

http://www.vocativ.com/world/germany-world/germanys-sharia-police/

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35059488

It's only a matter of time till we see this extremist crap on the streets of Canada.

[WestCanMan]

Excuse me but I came back with a blatantly verifiable fact. You've acknowledged you were wrong to accuse me of making an ad hominem argument when I pressed you on your claim so you should be able to admit I'm entirely correct when I claim I stand a much greater chance of being killed by lightning than by an Islamic terrorist.

If you recall we're talking about Islamophobia in Canada not Khandar or the Caliphate, go check the thread title yourself if you don't believe me.

I'm shocked at how easily you walked into this one. Maybe it says a lot about the capacity of fear to thoroughly render someone incapable of cogent thought but that said...I'm not shocked to see people who accuse others of using ad hominem fallacies turn right around and commit the informal fallacy of moving goalposts around when they're desperate to maintain the credibility of their case.

You want my opinion? Here's one, these debating tactics do not indicate an ignorant phobia that needs pitying, they indicate an inciteful loathing that should be excoriated. It's a real pleasure to do so with the same material you've provided to feign your ignorance.

OK, so the first sentence of your answer was not an ad hominem argument, just the last two paragraphs were (the part about me just being some paranoid ignoramus).

For it not to be an ad hominem argument you'd have to tackle the tough question about whether there are any areas where large muslim populations don't equate to large problems - not what you just perceive to be my own personality quirks.

Right on cue, you had no bullets for the main thrust of my argument so you went after me.

I repeat "every nation on earth with a large population of muslims starts running into the exact same problem". You can blame my ignorance for all the problems in 50 different countries if you want, and stand by your claim that Canada has magic water that will eradicate any potential problems before they surface. Whatever.

[dialamah]

There is an enormous difference between criticizing an ideology and creed, and pointing out the current behaviour of many who follow it, and the hate literature you linked to which makes all kinds of ridiculous allegations, virtually all of them dishonest, about a people. Saying there are parts of Koran which command violence against unbelievers, in other words, is not the same as saying Jews are greedy and corrupt and are involved in a conspiracy to control the world.

If the "criticism" of Islam didn't focus entirely on a one-sided view, in order to substantiate a fear of Muslims, then yeah - I'd accept that this is all just objective discussion. But what I am seeing from some is that they use parts of the Quran to declare Muslims inherently violent. They find reasons to dismiss the many parts of the Quran that teach peace and tolerance; they ignore the many clerics and other Islamic experts who denounce and use Quranic scripture and Hadiths to do so. I just don't see how that is any different than the way in which Daesh use the Quran and various Hadiths to support their war.

The Westerners who want to use Islam as motivation for terrorism also seem to want to downplay the impact of Western influence and meddling in that region. We ignored how much of the Arab world felt about having Isreal plunked down in that region. The people in that region watched the US make up "evidence", and then attack Iraq. We meddle in their politics, and lie about it. We engage in military action in their countries and leave them worse off. And yet it's because Islam teaches them to be violent that we have a problem with terrorists? How blind and illogical is that?

I don't know how or why the misinformation about the Jews got started but I bet there was no lack of 'proof' at the time for their perceived crimes; today, many of us no longer believe that information and so it's 'hate speech' or 'hate crimes' from those that still believe. Some people feel they have plenty of 'proof' about the Muslims and their 'crimes', they take the actions of the extreme minority as 'proof' of how all Muslims feel and believe, and will some day act. They use words written hundreds of years ago to 'prove' that Muslims as a whole are bent on conversion or genocide. They take isolated incidents of a few hundred immigrants who happen to Muslim behaving badly in their new country as 'proof' of all Muslim's ill-intent, while ignoring the many millions if immigrants who also happen to be Muslim becoming well-integrated into their new country.

There is a complete absence of logic in your certainty. You cannot suggest that because people make things up about Jews therefore everything people are complaining about with regard to the Muslim world and its culture is also wrong. That's especially when those who make claims about the Muslim world and Islam support them with evidence, as opposed to those who simply make preposterous claims and accusations about Jews with no evidence or facts behind them

The demonizing of a person or group, whether a competitor, a religion or an ethnicity, tends to follow fairly predictable patterns. I see it happening with Muslims, and it seems to also have happened with Jews in the past, with very long-term consequences. For Muslims, the Daesh are very useful in allowing others to demonize Islam and all Muslims and I wonder what was used against the Jews, because I really don't know.

But you have previously admitted that anyone who believes apostates should be executed is an extremist. Therefore, the percentage of the Muslim world which is composed of extremists is considerably higher than one half of one percent, is it not?

I think a politician who advocates banning and/or carding Muslims and building walls against Mexicans, and those who agree with him, are also extremists. That would make roughly 30% of Americans extremists. I think that people who walk around Walmart with loaded weapons to make a point are extremists; so there's another significant portion of the US population. Do I want those kind of people moving to or visiting Canada and 'influencing' Canadians to their brand of extremism? Of course not, why would I? Am I able to pick out those people from among all Americans who may want to move or visit here? Nope. So, what I have to do is rely on our system of government and laws to manage those who may have extremist views, while still welcoming those who do not.

Yes, it's a risk, someone with extremist views may come to Canada whether a White Supremacist with a gun fetish who believes inter-racial couples should be killed, or an Islamic fundamentalist who believes apostates should be killed. But it's also true that people with extremist views already live here, and that people who've been born here can be radicalized. We cannot make us safe from everything all the time, and it's fruitless to try. We'll just put ourselves in a prison, and remove our own humanity.

Edited December 27, 2015 by dialamah

[DogOnPorch]

If the "criticism" of Islam didn't focus entirely on a one-sided view, in order to substantiate a fear of Muslims, then yeah - I'd accept that this is all just objective discussion.

So...what's your take on the passages from the Quran I posted?

[dialamah]

Islamophobia in Canada?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_patrols

http://www.vocativ.com/world/germany-world/germanys-sharia-police/

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35059488

Link #1: Sharia patrol groups are denounced by Muslims; several of them are charged, convicted and jailed. Christian patrol groups are now in operation as well.

Link #2; A group of men are annoying people, are picked up and are ultimately determined to not be breaking any laws. A video group follows these men and finds them doing nothing much at all.

Link #3: Same as Link #2

It's only a matter of time till we see this extremist crap on the streets of Canada.

That NEVER happens with non-Muslims, eh? I never see guys on street corners with signs about the end of the world, aggressively warning us all to repent. I never see Christian religious programming telling people how God is going to punish them for their behavior, telling women they should be modest in dress and behavior, advocating moderation/avoidance of alcohol, submission to Jesus, etc. Nobody has ever gotten a knock on their door, to find nicely and modestly dressed people at their door, trying to tell them about God.

If Muslims are on the street talking to people about their beliefs and religion, it's 'extremism'. If Christians do it, it's unremarkable.

[WestCanMan]

Dialamah you are ignoring every page of known and accepted historical fact at the same time as you are painting yourself as a bleeding heart humanitarian and everyone else as racists.

Instead of just telling us how you feel why don't you go out and find an example of one area where a large population of muslims were wonderful & tolerant towards other cultures and shut everyone up for good? That's all it takes. Your one Utopia vs the other 1,500 years and 50 countries which were the exact opposite of utopian.

We are talking about a massive amount of history, covering a large portion of the earth over an extremely long time with results that have remained rock-steady and you are talking about what you personally feel in your heart. Why are you so unwilling to step up with some facts about what we are actually talking about? We don't think that your opinion trumps historical data.

I acknowledge that there are a lot of people out there who are members of that faith who want to believe that their religion is a religion of peace. There are also a lot of people who believe that smoking isn't bad for them or their children, or that they can take ecstasy with no worries at all, that they are ok to drive after ten light beers, or they are sure that they know a guy who's a member of the Hell's Angels but he's really a nice guy. A lot of people in Germany thought that their government was doing things that were logical and acceptable under the circumstances.

I'm happy to hear your point of view expressed with history, not your predictions of the future. I judge people by their actions and I tend to put less faith in other people's opinions of how likely they are to change in the future.

[ironstone]

Link #1: Sharia patrol groups are denounced by Muslims; several of them are charged, convicted and jailed. Christian patrol groups are now in operation as well.

Link #2; A group of men are annoying people, are picked up and are ultimately determined to not be breaking any laws. A video group follows these men and finds them doing nothing much at all.

Link #3: Same as Link #2

That NEVER happens with non-Muslims, eh? I never see guys on street corners with signs about the end of the world, aggressively warning us all to repent. I never see Christian religious programming telling people how God is going to punish them for their behavior, telling women they should be modest in dress and behavior, advocating moderation/avoidance of alcohol, submission to Jesus, etc. Nobody has ever gotten a knock on their door, to find nicely and modestly dressed people at their door, trying to tell them about God.

If Muslims are on the street talking to people about their beliefs and religion, it's 'extremism'. If Christians do it, it's unremarkable.

I'm grateful you didn't post any links to Christian suicide bombers,Christians beheading,burning,drowning people,etc.

[DogOnPorch]

It's pretty obvious that some posters feel that folks pointing-out Islam's tendency towards violence and murder is the REAL problem. If we'd just shut-up and submit, Islam would be peaceful. Tah-daaa.

[WestCanMan]

The demonizing of a person or group, whether a competitor, a religion or an ethnicity, tends to follow fairly predictable patterns.

Is it safe to say then dialamah that it's always wrong to demonize a group? That's what you are telling us, isn't it? Because I can actually think of groups with less blood on their hands who are actually condemned by popular opinion in North America.

I ask you this: If a group has a leader that's completely angelic to his own members but kills astonishing numbers of people for no other reason than their lack of willingness to accept his beliefs and live every moment of their lives according to his orders would we consider that person bad by western standards? What about his followers? I dare you to answer that question truthfully dialamah.

[dialamah]

I'm grateful you didn't post any links to Christian suicide bombers,Christians beheading,burning,drowning people,etc.

I could or at least, people who call themselves Christians. Peace-loving Christians would denounce them, just as peace-loving Muslims denounce those who bomb, behead, burn and drown others.

[WestCanMan]

If Muslims are on the street talking to people about their beliefs and religion, it's 'extremism'. If Christians do it, it's unremarkable.

You're re-writing history if you want to say that the main strategy of spreading Islam has been to send out their followers in suits and dresses to be politely annoying like Jehovahs, born agains, etc. I have had wobbly pops in several countries that are dominated by christians and have yet to have Christian Police get up in my grill telling me to change my ways.

Honestly dude you don't seem to make a single point with any merit, and you are making some ridiculous claims.

[WestCanMan]

I could or at least, people who call themselves Christians. Peace-loving Christians would denounce them, just as peace-loving Muslims denounce those who bomb, behead, burn and drown others.

It's all in the numbers dialamah, that's the thing. You don't call it a pattern when one group does something and 99.999% of the rest of the group is denouncing them.

A cat in East Rutherford New Jersey made friends with a crow, therefor all cats are friends with crows. True or false?

A cat in Boston Massachusetts ate a mouse. On that same day, tens of thousands of cats from all over the world ate mice, just like every other day for the last 1,500 years. 90% of the cats on earth actually didn't eat a mouse that day though, so it's safe to say that if you buy a cat it's not very likely to ever attack a mouse. True or false?

[dialamah]

I ask you this: If a group has a leader that's completely angelic to his own members but kills astonishing numbers of people for no other reason than their lack of willingness to accept his beliefs and live every moment of their lives according to his orders would we consider that person bad by western standards? What about his followers? I dare you to answer that question truthfully dialamah.

Daring me to answer 'honestly' suggests that if my answer isn't one you 'approve' of, you'll not accept it.

Anyway, I denounce people who kill other people for any reason. I denounce leaders who encourage their followers to kill, for any reason. I hold *individuals* responsible for their actions.

In the Quran, choices are provided and supported by scripture. Different people choose to follow different scriptures. Whole Islamic sects are given to following the most peacefu and progressive scripture; some Muslims follow the most *violent* scriptures; most are somewhere in between. I hold the *individuals* responsible for their choices; if they follow the peaceful scrptures, that is to be commended and respected. If they follow the violent scriptures, that is to be condemned and denounced. Which I do, wholeheartedly.

[DogOnPorch]

Do you feel Mohammad...the creator of Islam...was a peaceful man?

Did he ever murder anyone?

Did he ever rape anyone?

[WestCanMan]

did he ever marry anyone who would still be in elementary school?

[DogOnPorch]

did he ever marry anyone who would still be in elementary school?

Yes....Mohammad liked the kiddies. A factor that instantly disqualifies Islam from getting respect from DOP.

[Guest]

Daring me to answer 'honestly' suggests that if my answer isn't one you 'approve' of, you'll not accept it.

Anyway, I denounce people who kill other people for any reason. I denounce leaders who encourage their followers to kill, for any reason. I hold *individuals* responsible for their actions.

In the Quran, choices are provided and supported by scripture. Different people choose to follow different scriptures. Whole Islamic sects are given to following the most peacefu and progressive scripture; some Muslims follow the most *violent* scriptures; most are somewhere in between. I hold the *individuals* responsible for their choices; if they follow the peaceful scrptures, that is to be commended and respected. If they follow the violent scriptures, that is to be condemned and denounced. Which I do, wholeheartedly.

It's like WestCanMan said, it's all in the numbers. If I were to offer you a country to live in where you could wear what you want, draw what you want, drink what you want, have relations with whoever you want (consensual, of course), insult whatever religion you want for as long as you want with as much vitriol as you want, the chances are good you wouldn't choose an Islamic country. It's all in the numbers. You could probably get youself into some kind of trouble anywhere with that kind of behaviour, but the chances are better that the trouble will come quicker and much more painfully from Islamic sources. Just odds.

[DogOnPorch]

And just to throw it out there...since all religions are ultimately the same being the argument often found...

Did Jesus murder anybody?

Did Jesus rape anybody?

Did Jesus molest children?

Did Jesus lead armies to conquer territory for Christianity?

Edited December 27, 2015 by DogOnPorch

[Smallc]

God certainly did.

[Guest]

Odin?!? Does Thor know?

[dialamah]

did he ever marry anyone who would still be in elementary school?

She was somewhere between the age of 9 and 17, depending on who you believe. In any case, the marrying of young females was very common among people of all nations and faiths, at that time. Generally, even if a girl married at a young age, the marriage was not consummated untll the girl had her first menses, and was considered a woman, commonly around age 12-13, though some were younger and some were older.

[DogOnPorch]

God certainly did.

He/She/It doesn't exist for all purposes.

So I'll just assume you're afraid to actually answer those questions I asked?

Edited December 27, 2015 by DogOnPorch