Islamophobia in Canada

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

 

1. that doesn't make the people making that argument responsible for the actions of people on the edge

2. Marilyn Manson is not responsible for Columbine

3. you're the hate monger

4. hating anyone who dares criticize Islam or any Muslim

 

Ridiculous position.
1. When the arguments are chiefly purposed to exclude and demonize people then they need to take some responsibility, yes.  Conservatives are supposed to be about responsibility, not saying whatever you like without care for the results.
2. Ridiculous analogy.   
3. Shooting the messenger and not taking responsibility for yourself.  This is very sad to me.
4. You are lying about the argument, so I will move on now.

[Yzermandius19]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

When the arguments are chiefly purposed to exclude and demonize people then they need to take some responsibility, yes.  Conservatives are supposed to be about responsibility, not saying whatever you like without care for the results.

the arguments aren't chiefly purposed to exclude and demonize people

even if they were, they aren't responsible for the actions of others

the hate crime perpetrators are responsible for their own actions

you blaming others for saying something that the perpetrators twist to justify their actions

is the ridiculous position here

 

you are the anti-responsibility person here

letting the perpetrators of the hook

because someone said something

that got them fired up

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

1.I never could understand the blindness the left has when it comes to Islam.  Those who would normally be at the front of the line advocating for the rights of women and homosexuals develop cast iron blinkers when it comes to Islam.

2. Show me where I've vilified people who didn't thoroughly deserve it, 

3. If you are of the mind that criticism of Islam  

4. Advocating for the freedom of expression...

1. We criticize Christianity too, but we don't advocate imprisoning them, barring them... people criticize African American culture but nobody says bar them from Canada.  I guess you don't understand the difference between criticizing a religion and demonizing its adherents.

2. If you think they deserved it, then you have 4 dead people in London who are starting to pay the price for the crimes you think they have committed.

3. "Criticism of Islam" ... stop it.  It's a lie.

4. Grasping at straws now... if I criticize you I'm restricting your freedom of expression, but if you respond you are expressing freely.  Got it.

So we have Yzermanius and BCSapper who support the murder of this family, because it's validated by Muslim crimes in others parts of the world.  I think I have heard enough from them.  Anyone else ?

 

[Yzermandius19]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

So we have Yzermanius and BCSapper who support the murder of this family
 

go fuck yourself

you slanderous piece of shit

despicable and disgusting behavior over 9000

 

you get on your high horse about demonizing others

and you demonize others far more than anyone you accuse of doing so

the hypocrisy is staggering

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. We criticize Christianity too, but we don't advocate imprisoning them, barring them... people criticize African American culture but nobody says bar them from Canada.  I guess you don't understand the difference between criticizing a religion and demonizing its adherents.

2. If you think they deserved it, then you have 4 dead people in London who are starting to pay the price for the crimes you think they have committed.

3. "Criticism of Islam" ... stop it.  It's a lie.

4. Grasping at straws now... if I criticize you I'm restricting your freedom of expression, but if you respond you are expressing freely.  Got it.

So we have Yzermanius and BCSapper who support the murder of this family, because it's validated by Muslim crimes in others parts of the world.  I think I have heard enough from them.  Anyone else ?

 

1) Neither do I, because I fully understand the difference.

2) Ridiculous argument.  Stop it.

3) No it isn't.  Try addressing the criticism.

4) No, I was talking about the law.  You can say what you like, as can I.

As for your last paragraph, I'm ashamed of you.

Edited June 8, 2021 by bcsapper

[Yzermandius19]

attacking the person, not the argument and putting words in their mouth

is all MH has

ad hominem strawmen

just a parade of fallacies

no semblance of rationality whatsoever

just him and his butthurt feelz

castigating anyone who dares disagree with him as the devil incarnate

cognitive dissonance is a helluva drug

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Yzermandius19]

22 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

3) No it isn't.  Try addressing the criticism.

he will either attack the messenger and not the message

and/or he will fabricate a message

and fallaciously associate it

with the messenger he doesn't agree with

 

he will not engage in rational discussion

debating the argument in good faith

if he did

he'd get his ass handed to him

so he avoids that at all costs

so he can fool himself into thinking he's the smart one with the moral high ground

it is the only way he can maintain that delusion which protects his self image in his own mind

hence the massive cognitive dissonance we are witnessing

Edited June 8, 2021 by Yzermandius19

[Army Guy]

10 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

As I said it will provoke psychos who are few but still exist into taking the wrong action. There are milder ways of telling the truth not to create hate or be provocative. As an example I would say as per my posts that those who do not believe in equality of women and respect for women and respect for other religions and equality of races must be barred from immigrating to Canada (that includes anyone regardless of what particular faith) rather than pointing my fingers at any certain faith or ideology

That would pretty much include everyone, including most existing Canadians... So much for immigration.

[Argus]

13 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Please, all of you Muslim haters on here DO step up and rationalize the murder of a family.  Let's hear it again now, you have never been shy about hating Muslims before. Your team scored four yesterday, so don't be a sore winner.

First, it ought to go without saying that no one on this site has ever even suggested violence against Canadian Muslims, not even obliquely. At least not that I'm aware of. 

Most of us disapprove of Islam because of its strict conformity with medieval cultural values and beliefs. And because of its hostility towards 'unbelievers'. By some estimates half their religious texts concern how to treat unbelievers (generally not well). So the importation of large numbers of people devoted to such beliefs is naturally a concern.

That disapproval, and wariness of the growth of such a religion, is entirely understandable given the religious violence we see throughout the world, and our desire to not see it here. But that does not suggest any desire or approval of violence against Muslims.

I don't like progressives and their beliefs either, and say so rather often. That doesn't mean I'm going to advocate or celebrate their murders.  It is the mark of a civilized society that we use words to express our disapproval of ideas, beliefs, and policies, rather than resorting to physical violence. What you and others are doing with posts like this is suggesting words incite violence. And they can. But not among civilized people. And holding civilized people responsible for acts of unbalanced people seems illogical. I mean, can we not denounce conservative or liberal policies without being blamed for inciting violence? 

If we can't use words to express our disapproval of philosophies, policies, beliefs, values or even religions where does that leave us?

 

[Argus]

10 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

As I said it will provoke psychos who are few but still exist into taking the wrong action.

There's nothing we can do about that. Charles Manson was provoked into murdering people by a Beatles song. The Son of Sam was apparently told to murder people by his dog.  John Hinkley tried to murder a president because of a movie. You cannot know what will incite someone who is mentally/emotionally unbalanced.

10 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

There are milder ways of telling the truth not to create hate or be provocative. As an example I would say as per my posts that those who do not believe in equality of women and respect for women and respect for other religions and equality of races must be barred from immigrating to Canada (that includes anyone regardless of what particular faith) rather than pointing my fingers at any certain faith or ideology

Congratulations. You are, according to MH and others, Islamophobic for suggesting that. 

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

"Criticism of Islam" does not mean vilifying people who adhere to a faith/creed and saying they should not be permitted in Canada.  That is scapegoating, vilifying and elementary hate-mongering.  The people who use this flawed logic are closed off to arguments that the arguments don't work, and are never universally applied.

It's amusing you write this given the most ardent supporter of your earlier post has just advocated this very thing. So perhaps things aren't as cut and dried as you seem to believe, hmm?

And you make a blanket statement here which you have to know is silly. If devoted followers of a religion which required human sacrifice wanted to immigrate to Canada would you be fine with that? Likely not. So we do know that there are some belief systems it would be best to keep out of Canada.

I and others have simply advocated that we test potential immigrants to find out the degree of flexibility and adaptability they possess in order to keep the most ardent supporters of a medieval value system out. That is not Islamophobia, but simply common sense.

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Furthermore, these arguments inflame people who are on-the-edge such as the one who killed innocent worshipers in a Quebec mosque awhile ago.

So BCSapper and Yzermandius have put their hands up to help facilitate that kind of hate-mongering so far.  Who else?

Blaming those who peacefully express their opinion for someone who does not is silly. Are we all to remain silent and never express strong views lest they inflame crazy people?

[OftenWrong]

19 minutes ago, Argus said:

Are we all to remain silent and never express strong views lest they inflame crazy people?

It's the only way for us to remain safe. We need to do it for the safety of others.

[Army Guy]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

"Criticism of Islam" does not mean vilifying people who adhere to a faith/creed and saying they should not be permitted in Canada.  That is scapegoating, vilifying and elementary hate-mongering.  The people who use this flawed logic are closed off to arguments that the arguments don't work, and are never universally applied.

Furthermore, these arguments inflame people who are on-the-edge such as the one who killed innocent worshipers in a Quebec mosque awhile ago.

So BCSapper and Yzermandius have put their hands up to help facilitate that kind of hate-mongering so far.  Who else?

The left and right or "Most Canadians" vilify entire groups of people all the time, IE First Nations, KKK, extreme right or left,  Antifa, Christians with strong religious beliefs on gay marriage, Abortion, Liberals , Conservatives ... what makes Islam any different ?

There are going to be groups of people that are just not meant to be together, Muslims and westerns nations have to many differences, Culturally, religiously.  In most cases the divide is to great for both sides to over come. We have not yet discovered a way to screen out just those that are trouble makers in any race or religion , Dearbourne, Mich is one example where things are getting out of hand, here in Canada we have Muslim communities that have purchased tracts of land to be sold only to other Muslims. There are many more examples but you get the point. Not all Muslims or all Muslim nations are bad but their religious beliefs are very concerning, and in some Muslim countries very scary.. 

Our immigration/ refugee  system is already biased, with all of its rules and regulations, and in some cases lack off rules and regulations and yet we are not vilifying our own policies. 

Those wingnuts that are on the edge, are not coming to this forum, they are being brainwashed on hard core hate sites, set up for that specific purpose to get home grown people to do evil things...

[Argus]

7 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

There are going to be groups of people that are just not meant to be together, Muslims and westerns nations have to many differences, Culturally, religiously.  In most cases the divide is to great for both sides to over come. We have not yet discovered a way to screen out just those that are trouble makers in any race or religion

And a large part of the problem is we're not even trying. The Left in Canada is unbendable on this subject. There must be no screening of any kind to weed out those with extremist sympathies or views. Even suggesting it draws howls of 'Islamophobia!".  I'm perfectly willing to accept that some Muslims are easily capable of living in and adapting to a secular world. But the other side seems incapable of accepting the corollary that some are not and that the more such people we bring in the more those views will spread and begin to cause trouble.

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

1. The left and right or "Most Canadians" vilify entire groups of people all the time... 

2. There are going to be groups of people that are just not meant to be together, Muslims and westerns nations have to many differences, 

3. Our immigration/ refugee  system is already biased, with all of its rules and regulations, and in some cases lack off rules and regulations and yet we are not vilifying our own policies. 

4. Those wingnuts that are on the edge, are not coming to this forum, they are being brainwashed on hard core hate sites, set up for that specific purpose to get home grown people to do evil things...

1. Right... but there's this idea of freedom of religion, association, expression, and it's morally repugnant to disparage people based on such things...  I don't think we should 'villify' political groups per se, unless they're explicitly directed to morally repugnant goals, like the KKK.

2. The idea that Muslims are a special type of human that can't integrate is not borne out in fact. The idea that a Muslim can't exist in western society is ridiculous, that religious pluralism doesn't work with Islam ... not real.   In any case, you should still be able to make the case that the precepts of the religion are incompatible without inspiring hate.  People have failed to do this, and instead seek to inflame and villify.

3. Ok, again you can make the case about flawed policies without depicting humans as being inherently evil.

4. They're already here.  They're posting here.  They think that 'Criticizing Islam' means depicting people as irredeemable and unable to live in liberal society, unlike every other person on earth.  


3. 

[Michael Hardner]

9 minutes ago, Argus said:

 There must be no screening of any kind to weed out those with extremist sympathies or views. 

Utter lies.  It's good that I gave you a pass already to my Muslim-haters list... you are perhaps the worst example, because you are able to reason, but when it comes to the topic of immigration your arguments decline to illogic and you are unable to see past your prejudices.

Anybody else on here want to stand up and support killing of Canadians of the Muslim faith implicitly or explicitly ?

[DogOnPorch]

I feed the crocodile in hopes that the creature will eat me last. 

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

I feed the crocodile in hopes that the creature will eat me last. 

Your arguments were amongst the first to do that circular thing where you blame the Koran for how its adherents behave, then when pointed out that other holy books have violent instructions... switch to blaming the adherents.

Of course, geo politics is the answer.  A kid who grows up in Canada isn't likely to be an extremist.  Unless he reads The Rebel too much, I mean.

Anyway, carry on... the Muslims are dying so update your PR kit for recruits, thanks.

[Argus]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Utter lies.  It's good that I gave you a pass already to my Muslim-haters list... you are perhaps the worst example, because you are able to reason, but when it comes to the topic of immigration your arguments decline to illogic and you are unable to see past your prejudices.

You lose your mind over this issue and turn into a raging progressive zealot. We do NO screening of immigrants other than checking to see if they have a criminal record or are on a terrorism watch list. We have spoken of this many ,many times. You know this to be correct, but facts simply don't matter when you get like this.

5 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Anybody else on here want to stand up and support killing of Canadians of the Muslim faith implicitly or explicitly ?

As I said, you are not capable of adult discussion on this issue. I and others have already condemned this. But to you, in your current state, anything but abject shame at daring to question Islam makes your eyes bug out and your hair stand on end and your fingers  pound the keyboard in a rage.

You need to leave this web site. Go back to your progressive safe space where everyone agrees with you. Or see a doctor to get some kind of medication. Your attitude is not healthy.

[Argus]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

Your arguments were amongst the first to do that circular thing where you blame the Koran for how its adherents behave, then when pointed out that other holy books have violent instructions... switch to blaming the adherents.

How is it illogical to blame a religion for how people act in the name of that religion?

Edited June 8, 2021 by Argus

[Argus]

13 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Right... but there's this idea of freedom of religion, association, expression, and it's morally repugnant to disparage people based on such things...  I don't think we should 'villify' political groups per se, unless they're explicitly directed to morally repugnant goals, like the KKK.
 

And you are here today vilifying all of us who don't like Islam and accusing us of condoning and supporting murder.

[dialamah]

3 hours ago, bcsapper said:

never could understand the blindness the left has when it comes to Islam. 

Just as "the left" cannot understand the racism of "the right" when it comes to any issue involving non-white people.  

[dialamah]

11 minutes ago, Argus said:

And you are here today vilifying all of us who don't like Islam and accusing us of condoning and supporting murder.

I don't like Islam either.  But I don't find it necessary to call adherents to Islam liars, misogynistic, fanatics, barbaric, homophobic, backward, dangerous, and constantly bring up the actions of the worst of them to characterize all of them, like the anti-Islam group on this forum do.   MH is being very specific in his villification; he's not including every Canadian, or every white, non-Muslim Canadian or even every poster on this forum.  His remarks is directed specifically to the people  who can't understand the difference between criticizing a religion and pushing the idea that every member of that religion supports and engages in the most extreme behavior featured on the news.  

[dialamah]

27 minutes ago, Argus said:

How is it illogical to blame a religion for how people act in the name of that religion?

You don't, though.  You, specifically, assume that every Muslim who doesn't support and condone violence, terror, misogyny, homophobia is lying.  Because in your mind, you can't be Muslim and also be moderate.  

 

[Argus]

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I don't like Islam either.  But I don't find it necessary to call adherents to Islam liars, misogynistic, fanatics, barbaric, homophobic, backward, dangerous, and constantly bring up the actions of the worst of them to characterize all of them, like the anti-Islam group on this forum do. 

You rarely criticize Islam, as if you're afraid to do so. For every word you spend criticizing Islam you throw out a hundred or two defending it and attacking Christianity instead.

And nobody uses the 'all' term except you. However, when people are talking about the dangers of a religion or philosophy or organization or group they obviously talk about the elements of it they believe are dangerous and why and give examples. 

I've made it plain my preferred option is to interview every would-be immigrant to discern their views. You and the others on the pro-immigration side have refused to consider this.

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

MH is being very specific in his villification; he's not including every Canadian

No, just those who have the utter temerity to disagree with his views on Islam.