Islamophobia in Canada

[Argus]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

It does matter, because the case is made that members from that culture are effectively irredeemable because there is something different from other cultures.  The tracing back to the text is part of a circular explanation that is made on here repeatedly.  

I don't believe anyone has said they are 'irredeemable' or even implied it. Certainly I haven't. My point has been that a devoted follower of a religion is not about to change his cultural views and values as long as that religion and its leadership reinforce the morality and righteousness of those views and values. So either he has to stop believing in the religion somewhat - as a lot of western Christians have - or the religion has to alter its interpretation of doctrine - as Christianity has done. Without either or both of those happening then yes, that person IS, I guess, irredeemable.

[Argus]

14 hours ago, bcsapper said:

It's pretty tricky to define, though.  If I told you and someone else something bad about Islam, let's say that incident where the religious police in Saudi Arabia wouldn't let schoolgirls leave a burning building because they were in their jammies and therefore not properly attired, you might not hate Islam because of it, but the someone else might.  Whose opinion matters?

What if I say this:

“About sixty-one percent of the contents of the Koran are found to speak ill of the unbelievers or call for their violent conquest; at best only 2.6 percent of the verses of the Koran are noted to show goodwill toward humanity. About seventy-five percent of Muhammad’s biography (Sira) consists of jihad waged on unbelievers.”

Would that be Islamophobic?

[PIK]

17 hours ago, dialamah said:

You let pass PIK's declaration that Muslims getting attacked and killed wasn't a problem because "We don't want Islam in Canada".  I guess you agree with him since didn't say anything when I called you out on it.

Not so much a defense of Islam, as standing up against bigotry.

I don't like Islam, it is a very sick and troubled religion. That is not being anything but honest. Funny how you can have israeli apartheid week in schools where jews get to be abused and chased around for the week, but say boo about Islam. .......

[PIK]

18 hours ago, jacee said:

You can criticize any religion you want, especially your own. 

But you cannot incite or promote hatred against Muslims or any other identifiable group. 

You know you reveal yourself as a foreign and partisan attack dog agent when you try to tag and insult me as Muslim. That's ridiculous. You have no clue about Canadians. I don't practice any religion, but I defend people's right to do so without people promoting and inciting hatred against them.

So you have no problem defending a religion that hates your guts and would gut you if they could. Real smart jacee.

[Michael Hardner]

32 minutes ago, Argus said:

I don't believe anyone has said they are 'irredeemable' or even implied it.

Yes, that's definitely the message I get from others on here who effectively want a quarantine on anybody who is in that religion.  We get quotes from the Koran posted that say if you're in the religion you believe in murdering infidels, etc.  I guess you don't see those.

[dialamah]

21 minutes ago, Argus said:

Well, that is true, that their religion does give them permission to lie to infidels. And it IS true that in the context of Canada a lot of them would realize that saying "I hate infidels' probably wouldn't go over very well. But mostly I would think they would find 'diversity' a code word for 'we can do whatever we want and not assimilate', as opposed to 'of course I respect Hindus and SIkhs!'

Their religion says they can lie to infidels if to do otherwise would result in their death.  The latter is something the anti-Muslim crew like to gloss over.  

Sure, you can suppose any number of things as to why only the parts of the survey you don't like aren't true and that 'those people' must be lying only on those questions. But then if someone notices and calls you biased or even bigoted, you don't have much of a leg to stand on in denying those accusations.

[GostHacked]

20 hours ago, jacee said:

I am not "in Islam".

Anyone who needs recourse to the law has it in Canada.

What is your point?

Islamophobia - inciting hatred against Muslims in Canada should not be against the law?

Is that your point?

It's already against the law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_Canada

Ben Shapiro sums that up quite nicely.

 

[betsy]

29 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Their religion says they can lie to infidels if to do otherwise would result in their death.  The latter is something the anti-Muslim crew like to gloss over. 

That's not all, Dialamah.  You're not doing the kitman, are you?

 

Here are various verses:

 

Quote

 

Quran

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.

 

------------

Sahih Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permitted in order to deceive an "enemy."

Sahih Bukhari (50:369) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered. 

 

The Hadith makes it clear that Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them or protect themselves.

There are several forms:

Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true as it relates to the Muslim identity.

Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."

Tawriya - Intentionally creating a false impression.

Muruna - 'Blending in' by setting aside some practices of Islam or Sharia in order to advance others.

 

 

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by betsy

[jacee]

19 hours ago, Goddess said:

I think trolling is more like when someone comes onto a thread and loudly disagrees with something, calls people trolls, Islamophobes and not Canadians and then refuses to answer questions as to why they disagree with a statement.

What do you think?

 

I think trolling is when someone has a mission to promote a particular noxious agenda - e.g., promoting anti-Muslim sentiments - and fails to respect thread topics and constructive conversation  with their zealous attempts to pervert all topics into their mission - e.g.  inciting and promoting hatred against Muslims.

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by jacee

[Goddess]

25 minutes ago, betsy said:

That's not all, Dialamah.  You're not doing the kitman, are you?

 

Here are various verses:

 

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx

 

This jives with what a Muslim woman told me when I asked why so many of them lied to me - she said "It's because you're a woman.  And because they can."  She told me that they are free to lie to anyone that they don't feel deserves their truth or to protect Islam, which is a pretty broad category - to protect Islam.

Quote

Their religion says they can lie to infidels if to do otherwise would result in their death.  The latter is something the anti-Muslim crew like to gloss over.  

I'm not really certain this is correct, given the many forms of lying that is allowed in Islam, as shown in Betsy's post.  Is this what "the religion" says, or is this just your interpretation of the verse?  Becasue it seems there is not a lot of consensus in Islam as to what the correct interpretation of verses are, and all are free to interpret any scripture however they want.

For instance, the wife-beating we were talking about yesterday - there are many, many interpretations of what that would involve, from a "light tapping" described on one site, to actual hitting with a stick (some websites say they are not to draw blood with the beatings, others say it's okay if the woman is especially disobedient.)  They DO all seem to agree that smacking your wife is perfectly acceptable in Islam.  There is certainly nothing that says they should never strike their wives.

I would guess it's the same with lying to infidels.  There doesn't seem to be a real consesnsus on what, how, and why lying would be permissible.

It's nice that Dialamah's interpretations are benign, but to say that her above statement RE: lying to infidels, is official Islamic policy is disingenuous, IMO.

[jacee]

18 hours ago, drummindiver said:

No, he posted a reward for others spewing hate speech. That is not hate speech.

"Though he carried on fights with various public figures (and even ran for mayor of Mississauga in 2014) he focused much of his attention on schools, which he accused of “indoctrinating” students with Islamic ideology. In one video, he offered a bounty — first $1,000, later increased to $2,500 — to anyone who filmed a Muslim student in a Mississauga school “spewing hate speech during Friday prayers".

The bigoted creep put kids in danger, so the police got involved and laid a charge against him, approved by the Attorney General.

Disagree?

Take it up with them.

[DogOnPorch]

Islam regularly preaches death to all Jews and assorted Kafir.

Even in Canada.

[dialamah]

58 minutes ago, betsy said:

That's not all, Dialamah.  You're not doing the kitman, are you?

 

Here are various verses:

 

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx

 

Yeah, that all pretty much backs up what I said.  

[DogOnPorch]

3 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Yeah, that all pretty much backs up what I said.  

 

Yes...Islam encourages lying to the Kafir to further the faith's dominance over all others.

Edited September 19, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

Plus, the Quran states this unequivocally... 

 

Let not believers take disbelievers as allies rather than believers. And whoever [of you] does that has nothing with Allah, except when taking precaution against them in prudence. And Allah warns you of Himself, and to Allah is the [final] destination.

https://quran.com/3/28

[drummindiver]

32 minutes ago, jacee said:

The bigoted creep put kids in danger, so the police got involved and laid a charge against him, approved by the Attorney General.

Disagree?

Take it up with them.

I do disagree.

Lots of hate speech going on in schools..

[capricorn]

20 hours ago, dialamah said:

You let pass PIK's declaration that Muslims getting attacked and killed wasn't a problem because "We don't want Islam in Canada".  I guess you agree with him since didn't say anything when I called you out on it.

How observant of you dialamah. As a matter of fact, my views about Islam and Muslims do align pretty well with those of PIK's. In fact, those views align pretty much with those declared by some other posters here. Therefore I don't feel the need to repeat what has already been expressed in this regard.

[dialamah]

3 minutes ago, capricorn said:

How observant of you dialamah. As a matter of fact, my views about Islam and Muslims do align pretty well with those of PIK's. In fact, those views align pretty much with those declared by some other posters here. Therefore I don't feel the need to repeat what has already been expressed in this regard.

Well, that's cool.  I shall just put you into the same category as those Muslims who hate gays/apostates enough to wish death upon them:  disgusting examples of humanity.  

[capricorn]

4 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Well, that's cool.  I shall just put you into the same category as those Muslims who hate gays/apostates enough to wish death upon them:  disgusting examples of humanity.  

Whatever turns your crank.

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, capricorn said:

Whatever turns your crank.

 

Notice how dialamah blames YOU for Islam's failings.

Edited September 19, 2017 by DogOnPorch

[Argus]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Their religion says they can lie to infidels if to do otherwise would result in their death.  The latter is something the anti-Muslim crew like to gloss over.  

I don't think they gloss over it so much as ignore it since it appears that's nothing but wishful thinking on your part.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Sure, you can suppose any number of things as to why only the parts of the survey you don't like aren't true and that 'those people' must be lying only on those questions. But then if someone notices and calls you biased or even bigoted, you don't have much of a leg to stand on in denying those accusations.

If examine a survey or poll from a logical perspective then people can call me bigoted? I would say if someone accepts a survey result without question they're idiots.

We had this discussion about the 'proud to be Canadian' aspect of the poll, if you recall. It did not necessarily mean what you believed it meant.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Argus

[jacee]

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

Islam regularly preaches death to all Jews and assorted Kafir.

Even in Canada.

Show me evidence of that "regularly" in Canada.

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, jacee said:

Show me evidence of that "regularly" in Canada.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSzSTd3kN3E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_6wEZJT9dM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13WTFjcZWes

 

[DogOnPorch]

3 examples in under a minute.

[jacee]

3 hours ago, PIK said:

I don't like Islam, it is a very sick and troubled religion. That is not being anything but honest. Funny how you can have israeli apartheid week in schools where jews get to be abused and chased around for the week, but say boo about Islam. .......

Show me evidence of that in Canada.