Islamophobia in Canada

[Rue]

No one agrees on what the Koran, Bible or anything else says. So called Islamic scholars even of the same school don't agree. Arabic language is actually quite poetic using one word for many things probably more than we do in English. In English we just tended to borrow from Latin/French to add words.

Arabic, Armaic, Hebrew, they can all use one word for different things. Its all in the tone of your voice and the context in which the words are used, not the words themselves and so when you listen its one thing, but when you read, its something else. Then again you could say that about any language.

However for the purposes of politics, we can safely say there are two distinct schools of Islamic interpretation in direct conflict, Sunni (as championed by Saudi Arabia) and Shiite (as championed by Iran).

Their argument is over who inherited Islam after Muhammed died not really the interpretation of the Koran although some would say otherwise.

For the purposes of this forum, it doesn't really matter. The kind of phenomena that leads to using the Koran as a pretext to engage in terrorism, war, etc., it could all in theory be argued to be based on the Koran or in contradiction to the Koran no different then how anyone else uses their religious books I suppose. I mean technically religion set up as a response to attacks and to fight back is Siekhism which is relatively new and there are so many writings from their Gurus that talk of peace you can't even say its just a warrior religion.

Certainly Christianity and Judaism were at one point warrior religions. They have evolved past that. I don't think the Pope will initiate any crusades although you never know. Judaism has no real leader. It has Rabbiahs in Israel who think they are the centre of the religion but they are ignored by the average Israeli and across the world there is no centralized structure that dictates doctrine but many different kinds of denominations and associations.

These two religions have had more time to evolve and therefore have many more sects. Islam does not. The sects it does have are not as diversified. The reality is you have the Arab monarchy in Saudi Arabia acting as caretaker of Sunnism and the monarchy in everyday practice imposes a Sunni belief system on as many countries as it can within the Arab League. Iran has since deposing of the Shah or Iran moved to try replace Saudi Arabia and so it defends the Shiites in Lebanon, Iraq, Bahrain, Yemen and agitating for change in Sunni countries where Shiites are not in the majority as well. Hezbollah is its proxy occupation army of Lebanon.

Assad is an Alawite and they are not even considered Muslims by either Sunnis or Shiites. Iran props Assad for political reasons not religious ones, i.e., preventing a Sunni majority from taking control of the government there.

Bahaiis, Zoroastrians, Yazidi, Druze, Berbers, Turkmen in Syria (not to be confused with Turkish people), Kurds, Beduins, Jews, (all kinds of beliefs) Christians ( Assyrian, Coptic, Armenian/Syrian/Greek Orthodox) all have distinct religions and are as native to the ME as Islam. Everyone of these religions influences the others in some way.

The reality is modern military leaders in Arab League countries use their Muslim clergy as Kings once used their affiliation with the Church in Europe to maintain control of the masses.

Gamel Nasser felt Islamic religion was keeping the Muslim world divided and conquered. He tried to get away from a Muslim collective identity to an Arab one which was basically anyone in the ME who hated Israel. He used Israel as a unifying scapegoat to get everybody from different sects onside and seeing themselves as a national political collective whose common theme was speaking Arabic not necessarily being Muslim.

His attempts are over. Using Israel as a scapegoat and common enemy kept all Arab League nations from turning on one another but that could not last because the ancient inside battles between Muslim sects has been going on for thousands of years and Israel's creation in the entire scheme of conflicts is but one of literally thousands and as the world has shrunk with the cell phone, competing sects now have new reasons to hate each other.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Rue

[Guest]

It is nice to see Syrian refugees handing out flyers to condemn the Cologne attacks. http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/syrian-refugees-are-handing-out-these-fliers-in-germany-to-condemn-the-cologne-attacks--b1jzWff8he

We, men from Syria, condemn in the strongest possible terms abuse against women and the attack and robberies on New Year’s Eve.

We regret that women were injured, physically and in their honour, we hope that they will recover well and soon from these attacks.

We hope that the perpetrators of these criminal acts will be found and punished.

Our cultural values were trampled by these crimes. Those values include respect for women and men, respect for bodily integrity, and respect for personal property.

We Syrians have come to Germany as refugees, because we want to live freely in this democratic society. We want to shape, to speak, and to live democracy.

We regret that the acts on New Year’s Eve have brought our group — a group of Syrians, a group of refugees and of other Arab or North African people — and our culture into disrepute.

We’ve fled an inhuman war, in order save our lives and our ability to remain human. We want peace and security and the opportunity to provide for our families through work.

We thank all the people in Germany, both women and men, for all of the help they have so far offered us. We want to show ourselves worthy of your help. We remain united: Your values are our values.

Germany has done more for us than any other European or Arab country!

[DogOnPorch]

Rue...specifically the claim was different interpretations of the Quran. Not Islam itself.

This site has the 7 main English translations of the Quran.

http://quran.com/

This one deals with the Quran word by word.

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp

Anybody can get a good grasp of the contents. It isn't magic.

[Charles Anthony]

Guys,

Please stay on topic and keep your banter to yourselves.

I just took out some of your trash. Please do not pile up some more.

[dialamah]

Rue, thank you for that analysis. And Slick, that is sad to read; it's unfortunate that they felt they had to assert their basic humanity, and even more unfortunate that too many people will ignore and disregard it. Haters gonna hate, as the song goes.

So, people are starving to death in Madaya and other places in Syria. Rebels and the Syrian government are both responsible for this. Equally barbaric, both claiming to be on the side of "right", whatever that is.

Another terrorist kills people in Turkey, another barbaric act, another claim of their moral superiority, their right to kill to advance their goals.

Western allies drop more bombs, callously accepting the killing and maiming of "non-combatants", aka kids, women, old men as well as young men, as the price of doing war.

Millions of people caught, terrified, starving, dying. They lose their homes, their parents, siblings, spouses and children. Men are forced on pain of death to themselves and families, threatened with 'dishonor' to wives and daughters - and so they join some faction and do what they must, become part of the machine that destroys. Or they try to leave, to save themselves and their families, and are criticized for being cowards. So much criticism, so little compassion.

It really boggles my mind that some wish to refuse these people help based on the assumption that they are 'barbaric' compared to us - warlike, misogynistic, stone-age; that they must be the worst of humanity because they are from 'that area' or 'that religion'. Strangely, willing to leave these people to suffer, to starve, to die, they would still call themselves 'more civilized'.

Pathetic. My heart breaks. I know we can't help them all, can't save them all, that however many we accept it's not even a drop in the bucket, more like a drop in the ocean. I am so glad that as a nation, we are stepping up. We are proving our heart, our humanity, our bravery. To those who would turn them away, I rank you with those who stand outside Madaya, blocking food and water, while those inside starve and die. You are not 'civilized' and I am glad you are not "my Canada".

Edited January 13, 2016 by dialamah

[Hudson Jones]

From your same link:

Regarding the Pakistani child prostitution rings in England, members of that community are willing to agree that there is a cultural aspect to what happened:

-Dr Taj Hargey, imam of the Oxford Islamic Congregation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang#Reaction_and_public_debate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang#Reaction_and_public_debate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_sex_trafficking_gang#Response_from_Muslim_spokesmen

-k

I agree there are cultural issues, but notice how in Sweden, some other Muslim countries were not on the list. Notice how Bulgaria and Romania.

Also, Pakistan does not represent Islam or Muslims.

This goes back to the biggest issue with how you have been approaching this topic, which is to blame a religion and anyone else who seems themselves as Muslim for the acts that are prevalent in specific cultures.

[ReeferMadness]

Estimate based on what? Traveled there for sex... does that mean prostitutes? I can't vouch for Australia, but in Canada visiting a prostitute isn't a crime.

Actually, it is a crime, since bill C-36 was passed.

[Argus]

What the hell ever made you think I thought I understood the Koran when I (and others) have tried over and over to point out to you that there are as many interpretations of it as there are Arabic speaking Islamic scholars? Reading comprehension seems not to be a forte. (that's French)

Your suggestion no one agrees on the central tenets of Islam flies in the face of reality. There are quibbles about some aspects of it, of course, but there is far more agreement than disagreement among mainstream scholars. And it's rather difficult to simply ignore history and how most of the Muslim world reads the same themes into it. You will not find any Islamic scholars, for example, who say it's acceptable to be gay. And in any case, we have 1400 years of history to go by, and examples of how the Muslim world treats people. And a religion of peace, it most definitely is not.

And how can it be a phobia to be worried about an ideology which causes people to commit violence against others?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Top-10-Reasons.htm

Edited January 14, 2016 by Argus

[Rue]

Dog on P you missed he point. The Koran and Islam are one and the same and translating it outside Arabic is not causing the disagreements as to what it means and to say it is -is ridiculous for the reason I and others have stated.

What because I don't speak or write Armaic I can' understand Christian theology? Right. Because I don't speak or rite Biblical Hebrew, I can't understand my Jewish faith? Bull crap.

My point remains we should be able to criticize any religion and people using that religion for excusing violence and terrorism and yes we should do so without using references that incite violence against innocent people, in this specific case Muslim refugees who are a sitting duck for receiving the brunt of hatred as the result of rapists from their community.

That's why I do believe and call me naïve I believe the statement Slick showed is very important. If Muslims can speak out like that, it will do a lot to help them-I believe statements like that are powerful than silence which is often construed as condoning the rapes.

I am generalizing for the sake of debate. I also agree with Argus that there are some basic beliefs prevalent in Islam that just don't mesh with Western values and something has to give because the West is giving clear signs its about to backlash.

I have to tell you as well, someone is just not getting it. . You can bring in refugees, and put them in Howard Johnson's indefinitely because we have no facilities for them but then what?The Canadian Press yesterday is saying families of 5-7 children need houses in Kitchener and we have none for them so into hotels they go.

That has to fan resentment for people unemployed and/or homeless or struggling to meet their payments in the Kitchener area.

We have refugees with large families smiling and waving at the cameras going to hotels while our own citizens are homeless. That to me is not a Muslim issue. Any refugee coming in under our economic conditions is going to face resentment for those reasons. I would argue that a lot of what we call Islamophobia is a resentment to what many see as privileleges given some but not others.

The continual reference to only Syrians as refugees and no other refugees plus our ignoring Canadian citizens who are homeless to focus only on Syrian refugees is bad optics.

The Liberals picked the worst person as well to talk refugees. Using a privileged, studdering drunk banker lackie to lecture people on being welcoming is absurd. McCallum was a butcher in the banking sector. He got to where he was creating a system to suck the blood of Canadians and he wants to talk about being welcoming? How many of his policies put thousands of small business people onto the street broke?

As for Trudeau, for someone who vacations in Nevis, did he bring any Syrian refugees with him or just his nannies on his private flight? Mr. Silver Spoon lives in privileged la la land and will never be there to understand the cold hard reality of what his policies will incite and lead to.

Where do you think Trudeau will be in 15 years when the children refugees are entering the work force with the belief Canada brought them here and promised them a better life? When they can' find jobs they will scream Canada lied and is racis and Trudeau will be leaving on his trust fund and government pension. Him unemployed? Right. Oh he knows though. He never had any privileges. Mr. Drama boy with one year part-time work as a supply Drama teacher, oh he knows. He's from the school of hard knocks. Worked his way up struggling he did.

Today's incoming refugees have been given a message from our government they are entitled and the government provides food, clothing, shelter, drugsm, dental and medical benefits as well as a monthly income for FREE.

My grandparents and refugee parent were never told they were entitled. The immigrants and refugees of the past were never told they were entitled. That is the huge difference. They came here and had no help from the government. People came not expecting a damn thing other than to work hard because the government was not going to help them.

Today when you step off the plane, there's a lavish display of food and you are told put more than you need on your plate don't worry if you don't finish it. Then there is a parade to show you that not only can you waste food but that clothing magically appears and so will a home and work...oh relax don't worry about that because you will get free medical, dental and drug care and we will pay you.

Ironically the very refugees Trudeau posed with are privately sponsored not even state sponsored posing them as state sponsored.

All these benefits feed the addiction to entitlement from the state as a right from the moment people step off the plane. These things seem wonderful to liberals because they address the guilt of those liberals, but in the long run all they are doing is creating people addicted to the state's titties.

Wait until those mouths start biting when these refugees grow teeth.

Will Trudeau and MCallum with their quick fix to feel good and get votes policies,be there long term to deal with the long term damages to society by not cultivating independent Canadians capable of building businesses? Well?

We already have multiple generation families dependent on the state. Do they move off welfare, subsidized housing? Of course not the same do gooders throwing breasts at them to suck won't provide programs to get them off the breasts and learn to be independent.

Tell me, where will the jobs be for these people when people who have total command of our languages can't even get jobs?

Now is all that Islamophobia or is it the kind of issues that deals with all refugees and immigrants as well as people dependent on the state titties.

I don't see the state as a panacea or the above or lack of employment by incurring huge debts it can't pay back.

The huge deficits this government is running up will just as these refugee children hit the labour market cause record amounts of unemployment due to inflation. Inflation is the necessary and inevitable consequence of deficit spending and it will hit the very people we will condition to be unable to cope with it.

We are creating a welfare state and that does not help the poor, it captures them in ghettos they have no idea how to escape.

Bringing in immigrants who can help build the economy remember that? Portugese, Italians, Dutch, French, Scots, Ukrainians, Irish, Chinese, Siekhs, Dukhabors, Jews, West Indians, Muslims, who the hell cares what they were, they came and they sacrificed to build.

People created society by taking initiative without government control.

Our government is preventing creativity, individuality, critical thing. Is creating people dependent on state titties and being told what to do.

As for privately sponsored refugees-if the churches and private sponsors are willing to support the struggle to assimilate and willing to see this through and get refugees to be independent, good on them and those refugees and that is why I admire private sponsorship not phony photo op cynical government get vote programs.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Rue

[GostHacked]

All this prostitution stuff is getting way off topic. Sever thread drift here.

[Hal 9000]

All this prostitution stuff is getting way off topic. Sever thread drift here.

I agree, It is way off topic! But that was the point, to take the issue away from the 1000 odd NYE sex offenders in Germany and try to argue that western men were just as deviant.

[Rue]

Actually, it is a crime, since bill C-36 was passed.

The bill you referred to did not make it illegal to visit a prostitute. The law says you can't pay someone for sex or live off the avails of prostitution and this law tries to add restrictions as to what to advertise. Being a found in at a brothel is history,. Escorts don't work in brothels. They use the net to advertise now and they work out of their condos or their pimps condos.

That clarified and back to the topic, the phenomena that has fueled some very heated feelings are the rapes being carried out by Muslim refugees in Europe. We all read about this and it appears to be a very real issue in Norway, Finland, Sweden, Germany and Denmark where stories at New Year's indicate group rape during New Years festivities on the streets.That has fueled in the last 3 weeks serious concerns as to how Muslim men are adjusting to Western sexual morals when they come to Europe.

There is a very real schism between Eastern and Western values and since Muslim refugees have come to Europe it has brought in a segment, albeit a minority, who can be shown to now be contributing to sex crimes that otherwise were not there before.

I have a problem with the smug banker ceo toad man like John McCallum saying we won't have any problem,s in Canada because unlike Europe we screen people.

I think that is a pretty stupid comment. It may have some merit but it sets refugees up for failure in that if any commit crimes now, they can play back his smug comment. The man is a toad. He makes some very arrogant comments he can't possibly prove and he's no friend of refugees. Say what you want about Harper but his handling of refugees was to do it as quietly as possible. Harper understood the nuances which liberal do gooders claimed was reluctance to do more because he was racist. He was not. He understood to prevent backlash, absorbing people required taking into consideration certain things first to avoid problems later.

My position is clear. I think we are better off supporting people in camps nearer to their homes in Jordan and Turkey until they can go home and the people we do take in where possible are privately sponsored by NGO's and congregations.

I also fundamentally disagree with singling out certain refugees for favourable treatment. Is it Islamophonic to argue preference is being given to Muslim refugees? Is that an unfair thing to say? The appearance is there.

I think liberal do gooders jump on the cause of the month. and the cause of this month is Syrians at the expense of considering other equally as deserving refugees. I also can't hep but wonder as refugees get placed in Howard Johnson's hiotels, what abiout our own homeless? Our message is we take in people from abroad into hotels while ignoring our own citizens on the streets? It just doesn't feel right. It makes me cringe what message liberal doo gooders think it sends (look at how great we are we pui needy people in hotels...). It also sends the meta message that we think more of Syrian refugees and give them things we don't give our own poor. That of course breeds resentment from the perception of unfairness.

Is it Islamophobic to say there are high rates of in-breeding in the Syrians coming in leading to genetic and mental diseases we are not screening?

Is John McCallum screening out famillies of first cousin marriages? Of course he's not. No one dares discuss that.

You think Johny McCallum knows what Guillen-Barre syndrome is? Hey you know what it is?

There are some very serious medical issues we are taking in that are not being screened for and no we have not planned for the added medical strain on our already over-burdened hospital system.We do not have many Arab speaking psychologists or psychiatrists.

We are also putting children with special illnesses hidden into our school system. Just the culture change alone causes stress. Now add that to a child born from same cousins who is developmentally challenged. See that's ugly and unsexy to talk about. It doesn't get votes but it os reality when you are a teacher, social worker, school bus driver, teaching assistant, school principal. Right now they are on the front lines dealing with adjustment disorders and issues. More Sammy Yatim cases are coming.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Rue

[cybercoma]

I agree, It is way off topic! But that was the point, to take the issue away from the 1000 odd NYE sex offenders in Germany and try to argue that western men were just as deviant.

Where's your outrage over sex offenders at Mardis Gras? Oh right, they're not Muslim foreigners.

[DogOnPorch]

Where's your outrage over sex offenders at Mardis Gras? Oh right, they're not Muslim foreigners.

Which Mardis Gras are you upset about?

Was it a coordinated assault in multiple cities?

[PIK]

You are right cy, so since we produce our own idiots , why bring in more?

[cybercoma]

Because some people are smart enough not to engage in the ecological fallacy. If Muslims were rampant rapist then you'd be bent over in an alley by now with the hundreds of thousands of them in Canada already.

[waldo]

Because some people are smart enough not to engage in the ecological fallacy. If Muslims were rampant rapist then you'd be bent over in an alley by now with the hundreds of thousands of them in Canada already.

per statsCan (2011 NHSurvey): number of Muslims in Canada: 1,053,945 ... clearly Phobes of Islam must be ever vigilant and ever wary of these RampantRapers!

[Derek 2.0]

Instead of starting a new topic, I thought I'd add this story from Greater Vancouver here, since there will surely be calls of racial profiling/Islamophobia:

Three men spotted using smartphones to take photos inside a downtown Vancouver mall earlier this week have prompted security concerns and a police investigation.

Vancouver police confirmed late Thursday they were looking into the "suspicious" incident, which was first reported by local website Vancity Buzz.

Police are now asking the public to help identify the individuals.

And the pics leaked by media, which Vancouver Police didn't plan to make public, until their investigation was further along (if at all):

Suspicious no doubt, but then these three "Middle Eastern looking fellows" could be engineering students from UBC doing a project or contractors bidding on new entrance/exit doors at the Mall...............Prudent move by the media to leak this pics or is it Islamophobia?

[DogOnPorch]

Obviously it's Islamophobia. If women getting raped is Islamophobic, this most certainly is.

[DogOnPorch]

You are right cy, so since we produce our own idiots , why bring in more?

This particular Rottweiler won't bite you. Promise...

[Hudson Jones]

Instead of starting a new topic, I thought I'd add this story from Greater Vancouver here, since there will surely be calls of racial profiling/Islamophobia:

And the pics leaked by media, which Vancouver Police didn't plan to make public, until their investigation was further along (if at all):

Suspicious no doubt, but then these three "Middle Eastern looking fellows" could be engineering students from UBC doing a project or contractors bidding on new entrance/exit doors at the Mall...............Prudent move by the media to leak this pics or is it Islamophobia?

Over 600 photos/videos were taken by these guys, so it is suspicious. I don't see any problems with making it public.

However, this, what I believe is a legitimate reason to be on alert, is no excuse for thinking that Muslims will bring in terrorism and rape into Canada. It's no excuse for people to start crying: "SEE! THEY'RE HERE TO KILL US ALL!"

As it has already been eloquently communicated:

Because some people are smart enough not to engage in the ecological fallacy. If Muslims were rampant rapist then you'd be bent over in an alley by now with the hundreds of thousands of them in Canada already.

And:

per statsCan (2011 NHSurvey): number of Muslims in Canada: 1,053,945 ... clearly Phobes of Islam must be ever vigilant and ever wary of these RampantRapers!

[Derek 2.0]

Over 600 photos/videos were taken by these guys, so it is suspicious. I don't see any problems with making it public.

I don't either after several steps were made by the VPD.....namely an effort made to insure these three weren't just tourists/contractors/students etc. It would be pretty lousy if these guys were just conducting an assignment from University...

However, this, what I believe is a legitimate reason to be on alert, is no excuse for thinking that Muslims will bring in terrorism and rape into Canada. It's no excuse for people to start crying: "SEE! THEY'RE HERE TO KILL US ALL!"

I never suggested all Muslims are terrorists/rapists.........but if a group of younger Muslim males are acting in a manner similar to those that went onto attack Paris, Jakarta etc, I think that is reasonable grounds for a level of concern.

[waldo]

........but if a group of younger Muslim males are acting in a manner similar to those that went onto attack Paris, Jakarta etc, I think that is reasonable grounds for a level of concern.

uhhh... how do YOU know the persons depicted are Muslim? I missed your declared "like manner acting" in relation to Paris/Jakarta... do you have related links that speak to "like manner acting"? Reasonable grounds for a level of concern... towards who/what? Towards those individuals depicted in the photos or does your suggested level of concern rise beyond them?

[dialamah]

I also saw an Asian looking person taking random photos and sending them to someone when I was downtown today. Maybe I ought to have followed and reported on their activity? What is the tipping point for suspicion? Number of people or number of photos taken?

Edited January 15, 2016 by dialamah

[waldo]

I also saw an Asian looking person taking random photos and sending them to someone when I was downtown today. Maybe I ought to have followed and reported on their activity? What is the tipping point for suspicion? Number of people or number of photos taken?

those Asians and their obsession with photos... borders on a veritable barbaric cultural practice... if only there was a hot-line to snitch on them!