Surprise! Israel refuses cooperation with UN Gaza war probe

[Big Guy]

Some Palestinians in Gaza shoot wonky rockets into Israel. Israel retaliates by bombing Gaza and killing a couple of thousand of innocent civilians. Hamas vows revenge.

So a couple of Palestinians go on a suicide mission and take out a whole bunch of Jews in a synagogue. The Israeli government promises reprisals and to reply with a "harsh response". This was a shot at the heart of Israel in Jerusalem.

So more dead, more martyrs created, more potential suicide bombers created and a promise of yet another "harsh response".

Will they ever learn?

Edited November 18, 2014 by Big Guy

[bush_cheney2004]

I agree....when will the terrorists learn that Israel will keep fighting people and organizations hell bent on its destruction.

[Argus]

He said Germany owes Jews reparations, so should carve off a piece of Germany for Jews. It's not an attack against Jews it's a suggested solution to the Palestinian-Israeli problem.

No, it's a statement that says that Jews are foreigners in the middle east and should not be there, this despite the fact most were born there, and that while many emigrated from Europe back a couple of generations ago Jews also flowed into Israel from all the surrounding middle east countries where they were being persecuted.

Interesting to note that Jews flowed into Israel and Muslims flowed out. All the Jews were welcomed and given full citizenship. All the Muslims who flowed into the neighboring Muslim nations were shunned and refused citizenship, even up to this day they still live as refugees, as do their children and children's children who were born in neighboring Muslim countries.

[Argus]

Why? Why is it a joke?

I've already explained that.

[marcus]

No, it's a statement that says that Jews are foreigners in the middle east and should not be ther

Majority of Jews were foreigners who moved there less than a century ago. They displaced many of the inhabitants forcefully and destroyed over 500 towns and villages. This injustice continues today. The displacement and land grab continues today.

This is a simple fact.

However, now it's unrealistic to expect for these European and Eastern Jews, who before had no ties (except for religion) to leave. The least that should happen here is for Israel to follow international law and honour the latest borders that were drawn up and to pay compensation for the re-settlement of the refugees that are scattered in the surrounded areas.

[jbg]

I thought it was anti-Israeli comments passing off as anti-Jewish comments?

That's a distinction without a difference.

[jbg]

Some Palestinians in Gaza shoot wonky rockets into Israel. Israel retaliates by bombing Gaza and killing a couple of thousand of innocent civilians. Hamas vows revenge.

So a couple of Palestinians go on a suicide mission and take out a whole bunch of Jews in a synagogue. The Israeli government promises reprisals and to reply with a "harsh response". This was a shot at the heart of Israel in Jerusalem.

So more dead, more martyrs created, more potential suicide bombers created and a promise of yet another "harsh response".

Will they ever learn?

Exactly. So why don't the Arabs respect the reality of Jewish State of Israel and start working with it? It is not going away and eventually the Arabs (whether they call themselves Palestinians, Hamas, ISIS or antlered deer) will trigger a massive, tragic response.

[The_Squid]

That's a distinction without a difference.

That's absurd.

[Argus]

Majority of Jews were foreigners who moved there less than a century ago.

Same could be said for the majority of Canadians. So what?

They displaced many of the inhabitants forcefully and destroyed over 500 towns and villages.

It would be fairer to say the WAR which was declared on them by the surrounding Arab countries displaced many residents and destroyed many towns and villages.

The least that should happen here is for Israel to follow international law and honour the latest borders that were drawn up and to pay compensation for the re-settlement of the refugees that are scattered in the surrounded areas.

Why should Israel pay compensation when the surrounding countries caused the war which displaced them? Is Israel to be paid compensation by the surrounding Arab nations which forced out all their Jews and which Israel then absorbed?

[Hudson Jones]

Same could be said for the majority of Canadians. So what?

No. The same thing cannot be said. There are huge differences:

1. North America was colonized before international laws.
2. There is a big time difference between
3. The land size is much different
4. Aboriginals are able to live anywhere they want to in Canada. Palestinians are not and are being pushed out

It would be fairer to say the WAR which was declared on them by the surrounding Arab countries displaced many residents and destroyed many towns and villages.

Except that this cannot be an excuse to steal land. Not unless you live in the barbaric period where there were no laws. Also, you cannot blame other countries for the ethnic cleansing that took place. Without any resistance or fighting, Jewish militias and Israeli military went from town to town and destroyed villages, killed people, transferred people and many escaped knowing they were coming.

You should read about the Nakba and learn about it. This may stop you from repeating misinformation.

Why should Israel pay compensation when the surrounding countries caused the war which displaced them? Is Israel to be paid compensation by the surrounding Arab nations which forced out all their Jews and which Israel then absorbed?

Yes. If they lost land, possession and for any other losses, they should.

Jews have been paid and are being as there are several agreements and funds created in 25 countries. Including LARGE sums of money that Germany continues to pay the Jews for all of the harm and the displacement.

Read all about it: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/claims1.html

[jacee]

Exactly. So why don't the Arabs respect the reality of Jewish State of Israel and start working with it? It is not going away and eventually the Arabs (whether they call themselves Palestinians, Hamas, ISIS or antlered deer) will trigger a massive, tragic response.

Ah ... threats of annihilation ... real class act. :/

And when is Israel going to stop worrying about what other people call it?

.

[GostHacked]

That's a distinction without a difference.

I could be wrong, but not all Israelis are Jews, just as not all Jews are Israelis.

[Argus]

No. The same thing cannot be said. There are huge differences:

North America was colonized before international laws.

The UN established the state of Israel, which is a hell of a lot more legal than how most states are established - by conquest.

There is a big time difference between

No difference at all to those born there or here.

The land size is much different

Irrelevant

Aboriginals are able to live anywhere they want to in Canada. Palestinians are not and are being pushed out

Aboriginals were not able to live anywhere they wanted to until they were tamed. The Palestinians have not been tamed yet.

They're still attacking people with axes and knives (and bullets and cars)

Except that this cannot be an excuse to steal land. Not unless you live in the barbaric period where there were no laws.

When the UN created Israel it did not say "All you Arabs leave. Your land belongs to Jews now.". The only Arabs in Israel who lost their land were those who left and never came back. The Arabs who stayed there still own their land. Palestine is a different matter because they lost a war and have never been willing to sign a peace treaty with Israel.

Also, you cannot blame other countries for the ethnic cleansing that took place.

Why because you can only blame Jews for such things?

Jews have been paid and are being as there are several agreements and funds created in 25 countries. Including LARGE sums of money that Germany continues to pay the Jews for all of the harm and the displacement.

That's for the Holocaust. I'm talking about things like Egypt expelling all Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

Edited November 19, 2014 by Argus

[jbg]

I could be wrong, but not all Israelis are Jews, just as not all Jews are Israelis.

Anti-Zionism these days tends to equate to anti-Judaism. Why is it that Israel's alleged depredations concern many so much more than the out and out atrocities committed by the other side. Come on, meat cleaver attacks on worshipers in synagogues?

[dre]

Anti-Zionism these days tends to equate to anti-Judaism.

No YOU tend to equate it as a means of deflecting discussion away from Israels behavior as a state. It gives you a convenient way to simply dismiss people as being racists. You even denounce other jews that are critical of Israeli policy as anti-semites: "self loathing jews" is the term thrown around there.

Its just your typical cowardly BS... nothing more.

[marcus]

Anti-Zionism these days tends to equate to anti-Judaism.

According to you.

In the real world, anti-Zionism is being against a disturbing, inhumane ideology.

[overthere]

No YOU tend to equate it as a means of deflecting discussion away from Israels behavior as a state. It gives you a convenient way to simply dismiss people as being racists. You even denounce other jews that are critical of Israeli policy as anti-semites: "self loathing jews" is the term thrown around there.

Its just your typical cowardly BS... nothing more.

And how would you describe those who adamantly refuse to note the hypocrisy of refusing to equally condemn those countries and well funded organizations that are determined to exterminate Israel and every Jew? Is there a substantive difference between Nazi Germany and Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/Syria etc etc?

[Rue]

Some Palestinians in Gaza shoot wonky rockets into Israel. Israel retaliates by bombing Gaza and killing a couple of thousand of innocent civilians. Hamas vows revenge.

So a couple of Palestinians go on a suicide mission and take out a whole bunch of Jews in a synagogue. The Israeli government promises reprisals and to reply with a "harsh response". This was a shot at the heart of Israel in Jerusalem.

So more dead, more martyrs created, more potential suicide bombers created and a promise of yet another "harsh response".

Will they ever learn?

Your words presume from a distance to understand the psychology of conflict, the impact it has on Palestinians and Israelis and presents this conflict in terms so simplistic as to make it obvious you not only do not understand it but are presumptious enough to think you can lecture the conflicted parties that they don't get it.

Wonky rockets? Only someone who lives in a sheltered privileged environment and has no clue about why people must go to bomb shelters would make such a statement.

Those brothers died because their anger was exploited. The PFLP were able to take that anger and exploit them to engage in a futile gesture.

The tensions on the Mount, the cramped space and battles to land title, land access, intertwined with thousands of years of entrenched religious hatred and misunderstanding are complex. Your simplistic, elitist, patronizing words are to expected.

Your words are as belittling and insulting to Palestinians as you are to Israelis.

[Rue]

No YOU tend to equate it as a means of deflecting discussion away from Israels behavior as a state. It gives you a convenient way to simply dismiss people as being racists. You even denounce other jews that are critical of Israeli policy as anti-semites: "self loathing jews" is the term thrown around there.

Its just your typical cowardly BS... nothing more.

Your personal attack is to be expected. So is your denial that if JBG or I criticize you or others it has no basis. When the two of us criticize you or others as anti-semites, it is specific to your using the pretext of criticizing Israeli policies to belittle Jews for forming a state and your failure to seperate your comments as to how Jews perceive their identity from state of Israel policies.

The entourage you choose to echo and engage with have time and time again used the pretext of criticizing Israeli state policies to insult and belittle Jews for choosing to identify as a state collective.

Engaging JBG personally and calling him names is to be expected from you.

[Rue]

It does not matter where the jews went, the hatred would follow them to the ends of the earth. Actually Jordon should be given to the palistines.

Jordan was created as a Palestinian state and still refers to itself as a Palestinian state both in its constitution and coat of arms. It allowed automatic citzenship to any non Jew calling themselves Palestinian. It was Yasir Arafat who in 1967 during the Black Sabbath uprising who tried to kill King Hussein of Jordan and seize the country. In those days Arafat ridiculed the name Palestine and the notion of calling himself Palestinian. His Palestinian Lberation Organization ridiculed the word. When Hussein threw him out, he then began using the term Palestinian in a new manner to refer to the right of his group to take control and create a nation in Israel, Jordan the West Bank and parts of Lebanon and Syria. Until then Arafat stated the idea of a Palestinian state was stupid as Muslims following Sharia law should only have one world Muslim nation (caliphate).

Hussein removed the right of Palestinians to come to Jordan and get citizenship after this uprising. Israel captured the West Bank and East Jerusalem in 1967 and in fact offered to give back the West Bank to Jordan to rule and he said no thank you and he wished nothing to do with Palestinians at that point in the West Bank.

Israel has been stuck with this albatross ever since. Its choice was to abandon it to the Palestinians thereby exposing Israel to renewed terrorist attacks, or occupy it to prevent the attacks so it stayed. It created settlements as early warning posts and interceptors of incoming terrorists.

That need is no longer acute thanks to advanced satellite technology and security walls. Eventualy Israel will create a border and withdraw behind it. That withdrawal has been delayed at least another 2 years until Obama is gone and thanks to Obama creating havoc in the Middle East and igniting a civil war between Shiite and Sunni extremists forcing Egypt and Israel to sit out of the Obama insanity as he and Erdogan flip and flop back and forth with ISIL and Hezbollah and openly support Hamas.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Rue

[dre]

Your personal attack is to be expected. So is your denial that if JBG or I criticize you or others it has no basis. When the two of us criticize you or others as anti-semites, it is specific to your using the pretext of criticizing Israeli policies to belittle Jews for forming a state and your failure to seperate your comments as to how Jews perceive their identity from state of Israel policies.

Problem is you just invent that stuff inside your mind, for the reasons I stated above. Never one single time have you backed up any of these brain-dead accusations when challenged. Not one single time. This is your usual routine... bleat, wretch, moan... then run and hide. Or you just beltch out some 5000 line mountain of incomprehensible spittle packed with insults, and allegations of racism.

You know who ya are, and what you are Rue

[PIK]

Good post rue.

[Hudson Jones]

Aboriginals were not able to live anywhere they wanted to until they were tamed. The Palestinians have not been tamed yet.

This sort of racist and bigoted thinking and conversation does not warrant a debate.

[Rue]

removed

Edited November 19, 2014 by Rue

[Michael Hardner]

Charles warned on this thread to NOT make these things personal and this is exactly what's happening.

Focus on the discussion.