New poll shows majority of Canadians want NO new immigration.

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, Legato said:

Quantity

Why?

[Moonlight Graham]

15 hours ago, I am Groot said:

This argument does not work. It has been rejected since the day it first arose back in the 1980s. Not by goobers like me but by demographics experts, statisticians, and economists. It. Will. Not. Work.

 

In more than twenty years of studies on this claim, nothing has substantiated it.

In a 2003 paper titled Effect of Immigration on the Canadian Population: Replacement Migration?, Canadian sociologist and demographer Roderic Beaujot finds: “It is impossible to use immigration to prevent an increase in the population aged 65 and over as a ratio to the population aged 20-64”.

In a 2006 report by the C.D. Howe Institute aptly titled No Elixir of Youth: Immigration Cannot Keep Canada Young, we read that “no conceivable amount of immigration with an age profile such as Canada currently experiences can significantly affect the coming shift in the ratio of older to working-age Canadians”.

In a 2025 report for the Migration Policy Institute titled Understanding the Impact of Immigration on Demography: A Canadian Case Study, Professor Daniel Hiebert runs a number of different high-immigration and low-immigration scenarios, and concludes that “even under the highest of these immigration rates, the old-age dependency ratio would still rise”. The only way to counter the fact that immigrants “age and eventually retire along with their native-born peers” would be “continuously increasing the scale of immigration on an indefinite basis” – an obviously absurd policy.

There is no data to support the contention that Canada can use an open-door immigration policy to offset our own ageing population. This does not even address a fact that our immigration lobbyists find most inconvenient: an ageing society actually has many benefits.

https://dominionreview.ca/debunking-four-classic-arguments-for-mass-immigration/

Canada needs immigration or the population will collapse.  There's no kids anymore.  There's a reason why McDonalds turned itself into McCafe and Toys R Us has been closing down and the Canadian military has a big recruitment crisis.  I never said immigration will solve all our problems (far from it), but stopping immigration isn't going to work either.

The 4 solutions: 

1. have more babies, or 2. import young people from other countries, or 3. accept economic collapse, or 4. change the entire global economic system from capitalism to something else not dependent on perpetual market growth.  #4 isn't happening any time soon and #3 is a non-starter.  There's no other solutions I can think of.

[Moonlight Graham]

11 hours ago, eyeball said:

Canada's population has doubled and nearly tripled around the planet since the 60's.

What am I missing here? If we'd listened to you guys we'd be like.

Again you take the submissive stance, like many progressives do.  Your willingness to take big L's is remarkable.  White progressives are a weak submissive lot crippled by guilt.

We have a global situation where the poorest and least educated countries have the most children and the richest and most educated countries have the least.  Ideally it should be the exact opposite.  I'm not willing to accept civilization extinction because people in Africa and Asia can't control their reproduction rates to a reasonable level.  If they starve because food prices become too high that sucks but it's 100% their own fault.  At least China has done something about it.  India is a completely dysfunctional country with pathetic sanitation, it's sad but again it's their own fault.

Canada is rich, we'll do fine.  One could easily argue that we've become far too soft because of our cushy economic conditions post-WWII.  We could use a little economic hardship to toughen us up and set our priorities straight again.

Edited December 10, 2025 by Moonlight Graham

[Moonlight Graham]

9 hours ago, eyeball said:

It'll never be high enough for you people it seems.

What are you talking about?  LOL.  High enough to at least sustain a civilization might be nice?  Like the last few thousand years?

[eyeball]

20 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Again you take the submissive stance, like many progressives do.

Probably more like seniors...it's hard to give much of a fùck anymore...figuratively speaking.

The big popcorn gallery in the sky beckons.

23 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

We have a global situation where the poorest and least educated countries have the most children and the richest and most educated countries have the least. Ideally it should be the exact opposite. I'm not willing to accept civilization extinction because people in Africa and Asia can't control their reproduction rates to a reasonable level.

You're looking at it backwards. These people have little to no control over their economic fate, that's they have as many children as possible. To ensure there'll be as many hands working to scrape together everything the family needs, especially the elders pumping out the kids.

Ideally the tides of good fortune should have lifted all boats a lot more equally than less so there'd be less people. Civilization is going to collapse alright.

35 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

One could easily argue that we've become far too soft because of our cushy economic conditions post-WWII.  We could use a little economic hardship to toughen us up and set our priorities straight again.

Yup. Let me guess, you're okay Jack?

Welcome to the gallery! Got popcorn?

[eyeball]

31 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

What are you talking about?  LOL.  High enough to at least sustain a civilization might be nice?  Like the last few thousand years?

Ever higher to keep the tide coming in forever.

If he population doesn't grow neither does the economy...now you're talking real fear of extinction. 3/4's of no growth these days would cause half the posters in here to slash their wrists.

The rest of you would all be bedridden with depression.

 

[Moonlight Graham]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Probably more like seniors...it's hard to give much of a fùck anymore...figuratively speaking.

If you're here every day arguing with people about things you disagree with then obviously you care.

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You're looking at it backwards. These people have little to no control over their economic fate, that's they have as many children as possible. To ensure there'll be as many hands working to scrape together everything the family needs, especially the elders pumping out the kids.

So they're either hapless victims with zero agency, per the typical progressive narrative theorizing.  Or the fellas can't stop f***ing their women and the ladies can't stop opening their legs.  Have you ever been around poor people before?

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Ideally the tides of good fortune should have lifted all boats a lot more equally than less so there'd be less people. Civilization is going to collapse alright.

I'm willing to help people, but I'm not willing to go as far as committing civilizational suicide to do it.

[Moonlight Graham]

16 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Ever higher to keep the tide coming in forever.

If he population doesn't grow neither does the economy...now you're talking real fear of extinction. 3/4's of no growth these days would cause half the posters in here to slash their wrists.

Right.  There's room for immigration, i never said otherwise.

[I am Groot]

13 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Canada needs immigration or the population will collapse. 

So. What?

You're still dealing with the cliche's we've been fed for decades. Remember, an increased population does not necessarily lead to an improved or richer economy, just a bigger one. India's is bigger than ours. Want to be India?

A falling population means a shrinking economy. Okay. But is that disastrous? Japan's population has been falling for the last few years. It doesn't look like things are falling apart over there.

AI will blunt a lot of the issues with an aging population, especially as the boomers are already dying off. And our elderly are way wealthier than previous generations anyway. That wealth will still be spent, even if they're old, then left to someone else. It doesn't disappear because there are fewer people. Our natural resources will now be shared among fewer people, too, which means more wealth for each of us.

As the population falls, housing costs decline. As there are fewer workers, salaries will grow. The culture will change in a decade or two or three or four, and children will become fashionable and our birthrate will grow again.

 

Edited December 10, 2025 by I am Groot

[eyeball]

12 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

If you're here every day arguing with people about things you disagree with then obviously you care.

I guess on some level, less than before though. It's like when I was more involved in the process of local government on a couple of citizens advisories hereabouts.  Like here you see many of the same faces over the years. There's always a few newbies that appear for awhile and move on...I often wonder how many warriors in here are process junkies in the real world. I guess I got my start as a union rep when I was 18-19 years old.

I was taken aback a little within the first few weeks of COVID when even advising the lowest levels of government suggested you were in on the effort to control everything and everyone. Some emails and community board comments verged on the nonsense you see in here. It was  odd but I wasn't completely surprised or even unused to it - I'd long since discovered way way back in the day that being a union rep meant you were a commie so...

12 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

So they're either hapless victims with zero agency, per the typical progressive narrative theorizing.  Or the fellas can't stop f***ing their women and the ladies can't stop opening their legs.  Have you ever been around poor people before?

Sure, not walking around the Sudan or anything but I've seen 2nd to even 3rd world conditions within a mile of my house. I've also seen and hopefully was able to contribute a little bit to changing those conditions to 1st world.  It's taken 50 years and there's...it's a process and there's no end to it.

13 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I'm willing to help people, but I'm not willing to go as far as committing civilizational suicide to do it.

There's no shortage of vandals smashing away at civilization alright. I'm willing to help people resist being caught up and dragged against their will into it.  Being on the front line is for younger people though.

 

[eyeball]

13 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Right.  There's room for immigration, i never said otherwise.

I'm definitely starting to think otherwise - there's over 8 billion of us now.

[Moonlight Graham]

11 hours ago, eyeball said:

I'm definitely starting to think otherwise - there's over 8 billion of us now.

Why?  My goal is saving western civilization from extinction. I think that's a worthy and noble goal.  Some immigration is no threat to that.  If you put zero value on your own culture, traditions, ethnicity etc that's your prerogative.

What would you say to an indigenous tribe in Canada trying to save itself, it's culture, it's people, from literal extinction?  "Oh well. We're all earthlings. Get over it".  It's not racist for them to try to conserve their culture, traditions etc, so why is it for us?

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Why?  My goal is saving western civilization from extinction. I think that's a worthy and noble goal.  Some immigration is no threat to that.  If you put zero value on your own culture, traditions, ethnicity etc that's your prerogative.

What would you say to an indigenous tribe in Canada trying to save itself, it's culture, it's people, from literal extinction?  "Oh well. We're all earthlings. Get over it".  It's not racist for them to try to conserve their culture, traditions etc, so why is it for us?

Ok, how do you determine whether something is trending towards extinction ?  

Is it the whole culture or essential pillars of it ?

I would say 'Western Civilization' is based on Western Philosophies, and basic values of individual freedom set against the values of Abrahamic religions all governed through a forum a well-mediated public sphere.

I don't see any of those things pushing towards extinction, exactly, although all of them are being viewed through a new media lens, ie. global internet and social platforms.

So, yes, things will change on the surface... how do you decide what needs to stay pristine, if anything does ?  How do you decide if things are even going well or not ?

I tried to take your POV in a discussion on another thread with User and they made the very arguable case that things are better than ever.   ( i recently listened to Steven Pinker's ENLIGHTENMENT NOW which makes a very good case in line with User)

 

[eyeball]

8 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Why?  My goal is saving western civilization from extinction. I think that's a worthy and noble goal.

I think it's vain. Especially when its based on simply believing outnumbering everyone else is the winning ticket.

8 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

What would you say to an indigenous tribe in Canada trying to save itself, it's culture, it's people, from literal extinction?  "Oh well. We're all earthlings. Get over it".  It's not racist for them to try to conserve their culture, traditions etc, so why is it for us?

They've been outnumbered 40 to 50 to 1 or more and indigenous people have in fact gone extinct under such overwhelming odds.

As for culture... ours changes it's skin like everyday was Halloween. Being a stranger in a strange land seems quite ordinary.

Edited December 11, 2025 by eyeball

[Goddess]

STOP VOTING FOR THIS.

[TreeBeard]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Ok, how do you determine whether something is trending towards extinction ? 

From what I can tell, it’s based on the colour of the skins they see around them.  As they see more dark skin tones, it’s a sign of “western culture” going extinct. 

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

STOP VOTING FOR THIS.

This is nuts and devoid of any attempt to think clearly or critically.

Why on Earth would anyone vote for racketeering never mind campaign for it?

Why don't questions like this ever occur to you?

[Venandi]

1 hour ago, TreeBeard said:

From what I can tell, it’s based on the colour of the skins they see around them.

Then you need to get out more because it isn't a common sentiment in Canada and spewing that nonsense no longer resonates with your target audience. 

For the most part, that audience was concerned about things like security, demographic concentrations, integration, and ensuring that sufficient infrastructure and resources were available to accommodate any influx. Those concerns were repeated over and over again... you failed to listen, you screamed racist instead and created a mess that will take the best part of a decade to unfuc% if we get started on it today (and we won't). 

As it stands now, sensible people don't care about your snide references to racism; they have eyes to see, ears to hear and they recognize the source of the problem in need of fixing... that would be things like infrastructure, intake, and to a lesser extent (due to lack of relevancy) the insults from people like you and Herb.

I think you'll soon discover that direct (or oblique) digs about racism aimed at people with legitimate concerns will get you a "stick it up you a$$" response. Let me be the first to offer that invitation here and suggest that the orientation of insertion should be sideways.    

Edited December 11, 2025 by Venandi

[Shady]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Ok, how do you determine whether something is trending towards extinction ?  

Is it the whole culture or essential pillars of it ?

I would say 'Western Civilization' is based on Western Philosophies, and basic values of individual freedom set against the values of Abrahamic religions all governed through a forum a well-mediated public sphere.

I don't see any of those things pushing towards extinction, exactly, although all of them are being viewed through a new media lens, ie. global internet and social platforms.

So, yes, things will change on the surface... how do you decide what needs to stay pristine, if anything does ?  How do you decide if things are even going well or not ?

I tried to take your POV in a discussion on another thread with User and they made the very arguable case that things are better than ever.   ( i recently listened to Steven Pinker's ENLIGHTENMENT NOW which makes a very good case in line with User)

 

The death of the West is pretty much accepted now, because of liberal immigration policy.  Mohammed is the most popular boys name in the UK now.  In Ireland, 20% of the population is now foreign born with no end in sight.  Scotland has a Muslim president.  Personally, I think countries like Ireland should stay predominantly Irish.  If you want a slow stream of immigration allowing people to assimilate to Irish culture, cool.  Same for other Western countries.

[Shady]

It's time the West understood this...NYT writer telling White people in the West that they have lost.

 

Edited December 11, 2025 by Shady

[Michael Hardner]

16 minutes ago, Shady said:

The death of the West is pretty much accepted now, because of liberal immigration policy.  Mohammed is the most popular boys name in the UK now.  In Ireland, 20% of the population is now foreign born with no end in sight.  Scotland has a Muslim president.  Personally, I think countries like Ireland should stay predominantly Irish.  If you want a slow stream of immigration allowing people to assimilate to Irish culture, cool.  Same for other Western countries.

This is just a coffee shop lament really. 

State some principles. Also you're on. Ignore here for some reason so posted the other place if you want to chat. 

 

Thanks, shady

[Moonlight Graham]

14 hours ago, eyeball said:

I think it's vain. Especially when its based on simply believing outnumbering everyone else is the winning ticket.

It's vain to want to survive?  I'm not talking about dominating the world.  I'm talking about continuing to just EXIST on planet earth.  The reproduction rates in all western countries are well below replacement levels.  They're going extinct and being replaced by Indians, Africans, Arabs, Asians etc.  There's a huge difference in believing you're superior to other societies or wanting to ban all immigrants versus wanting to simply continue EXISTING.

The next time you talk to an immigrant tell them that multiculturalism in Canada doesn't matter because maintaining your culture, traditions, language etc is vain.  Go tell the Brits and Germans and Italians and Spanish that their culture and ethnicity is meanginless.

14 hours ago, eyeball said:

They've been outnumbered 40 to 50 to 1 or more and indigenous people have in fact gone extinct under such overwhelming odds.

And you don't care?  Indigenous people complaining about it is vanity?  "Cultures change, just learn English and believe in Jesus, get over it".

14 hours ago, eyeball said:

As for culture... ours changes it's skin like everyday was Halloween. Being a stranger in a strange land seems quite ordinary.

It's also pretty ordinary to value your ethnicity/culture and wish to maintain its very existence.

Edited December 12, 2025 by Moonlight Graham

[Moonlight Graham]

11 hours ago, eyeball said:

This is nuts and devoid of any attempt to think clearly or critically.

Why on Earth would anyone vote for racketeering never mind campaign for it?

Why don't questions like this ever occur to you?

They vote for politicians who maintain a system where some people are allowed to abuse our immigration system.  Please don't play stupid.

[Nationalist]

On 12/10/2025 at 1:30 AM, Moonlight Graham said:

Canada needs immigration or the population will collapse.  There's no kids anymore.  There's a reason why McDonalds turned itself into McCafe and Toys R Us has been closing down and the Canadian military has a big recruitment crisis.  I never said immigration will solve all our problems (far from it), but stopping immigration isn't going to work either.

The 4 solutions: 

1. have more babies, or 2. import young people from other countries, or 3. accept economic collapse, or 4. change the entire global economic system from capitalism to something else not dependent on perpetual market growth.  #4 isn't happening any time soon and #3 is a non-starter.  There's no other solutions I can think of.

There is a solution. Deregulation. Closed borders. Revived manufacturing. 

Let Canada strut. Affluence will return. Housing will become affordable. Families will flourish. The transformation would take at least a decade, but it would work.

[I am Groot]

19 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

From what I can tell, it’s based on the colour of the skins they see around them.  As they see more dark skin tones, it’s a sign of “western culture” going extinct. 

I understand that your ignorance is the product of living in Canada, where the media and government censor information that might tend to make us think less of any non-white community or group. But really, there's no excuse for not looking elsewhere on the internet for information.

We know what we think of as civilization. It's the West, where people resolve differences through discussion, where all citizens are to be considered by the government to be of equal value and to enjoy a certain set of rights. Clearly, your team has been backsliding on that part, preferring to give more human rights to people whose skin colour they like. I'm not sure why you think that's not racism, btw, but it is. In any event, the ideal is that all citizens can be respected by government and society and given equal rights and will be treated equally regardless of race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

Nowhere else in the world outside the West does this. Nowhere. Nowhere outside the West is even considering doing it. That's especially so for Muslim countries, whose citizens have flooded into the West over the last some years at the best of liberal types like you, gleefully waved past the border without a single query about their intentions. And even when they say openly "We will take over and make this place like the place we left" you just smile and nod.

You say you embrace all those Western ideals, but you're absolutely determined that the hill you will die on is fighting to make sure more millions of such people come here who want to destroy Western ideals. The riots and violence towards women and girls recorded in so many European countries mean nothing to you. You hand-wave it away, quite certain every Muslim who comes here seeks to cast off their old religious culture and values and adopt Canadian ones. Even if they're not doing that anywhere else.

How many people are in the House of Commons now who weren't born here? How many of them have demonstrated that they're Canadian first, as opposed to Indian/Sikh/Tamil/Muslim first? We don't ask them to integrate. And we tell them there's nothing to integrate to anyway. So they're going to take over soon. And they don't embrace Western values any more than their countries do.

Edited December 12, 2025 by I am Groot