Is Canada (or the US) becoming authoritarian?

[Moonlight Graham]

I asked Grok for the signs of an authoritarian government.  Which apply to Canada?   Which to the US right now?

• Suppression of Political Opposition:
  • Opposition parties are banned, harassed, or marginalized.
  • Political rivals are imprisoned, exiled, or silenced through intimidation.
  • Elections, if held, are manipulated to ensure the ruling party’s victory (e.g., voter suppression, ballot stuffing, or media control).
• Restriction of Free Speech and Press:
  • Censorship of media outlets, including state control or shutdown of independent news organizations.
  • Journalists face harassment, imprisonment, or violence for critical reporting.
  • Internet access may be restricted, with heavy surveillance of online activity.
• Erosion of Civil Liberties:
  • Limits on freedom of assembly, protest, or association.
  • Use of excessive force by police or military to suppress demonstrations.
  • Widespread surveillance of citizens, often justified as "national security."
• Centralized Control and Weakened Checks and Balances:
  • Concentration of power in the hands of a single leader or small group.
  • Judiciary and legislative branches are undermined, controlled, or packed with loyalists.
  • Constitutional changes to extend term limits or grant unchecked powers to the leader.
• Propaganda and State-Controlled Narratives:
  • Government dominates public discourse through state-run media or propaganda campaigns.
  • Alternative viewpoints are discredited as "fake news" or "foreign interference."
  • Cult of personality around the leader, portraying them as infallible or indispensable.
• Use of Fear and Repression:
  • Secret police or paramilitary groups enforce loyalty and punish dissent.
  • Arbitrary arrests, torture, or disappearances of perceived enemies.
  • Policies stoke fear of external or internal "threats" to justify authoritarian measures.
• Economic Control and Cronyism:
  • State control over key industries, often benefiting loyalists or elites.
  • Widespread corruption, with resources funneled to regime supporters.
  • Economic policies prioritize regime stability over public welfare.
• Manipulation of National Identity:
  • Exploitation of nationalism, religion, or cultural identity to unify support and demonize opponents.
  • Marginalization or persecution of minority groups as scapegoats.
  • Historical revisionism to glorify the regime or its leader.
• Weak Rule of Law:
  • Laws are applied selectively, favoring regime allies while targeting opponents.
  • Legal protections for individuals are ignored or dismantled.
  • Security forces operate with impunity, often above the law.
• Control Over Education and Culture:
  • Curricula rewritten to align with regime ideology.
  • Cultural institutions (e.g., arts, museums) are co-opted to serve state narratives.
  • Intellectuals and academics face censorship or persecution for challenging the regime.

[paxamericana]

No, we vote. We voted to pushback against the extremist element of our society that you failed to confront and enabled through your tolerance. 

[Moonlight Graham]

13 hours ago, paxamericana said:

No, we vote. We voted to pushback against the extremist element of our society that you failed to confront and enabled through your tolerance. 

The Republican Party are fascists.  Trump got 76% of the vote among members of the GOP nationwide during the 2024 GOP primaries.

[CdnFox]

On 7/26/2025 at 9:36 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

I asked Grok for the signs of an authoritarian government.  Which apply to Canada?   Which to the US right now?

 

• Suppression of Political Opposition:
  • Opposition parties are banned, harassed, or marginalized.
  • Political rivals are imprisoned, exiled, or silenced through intimidation.
  • Elections, if held, are manipulated to ensure the ruling party’s victory (e.g., voter suppression, ballot stuffing, or media control).
• Restriction of Free Speech and Press:
  • Censorship of media outlets, including state control or shutdown of independent news organizations.
  • Journalists face harassment, imprisonment, or violence for critical reporting.
  • Internet access may be restricted, with heavy surveillance of online activity.
• Erosion of Civil Liberties:
  • Limits on freedom of assembly, protest, or association.
  • Use of excessive force by police or military to suppress demonstrations.
  • Widespread surveillance of citizens, often justified as "national security."
• Centralized Control and Weakened Checks and Balances:
  • Concentration of power in the hands of a single leader or small group.
  • Judiciary and legislative branches are undermined, controlled, or packed with loyalists.
  • Constitutional changes to extend term limits or grant unchecked powers to the leader.
• Propaganda and State-Controlled Narratives:
  • Government dominates public discourse through state-run media or propaganda campaigns.
  • Alternative viewpoints are discredited as "fake news" or "foreign interference."
  • Cult of personality around the leader, portraying them as infallible or indispensable.
• Use of Fear and Repression:
  • Secret police or paramilitary groups enforce loyalty and punish dissent.
  • Arbitrary arrests, torture, or disappearances of perceived enemies.
  • Policies stoke fear of external or internal "threats" to justify authoritarian measures.
• Economic Control and Cronyism:
  • State control over key industries, often benefiting loyalists or elites.
  • Widespread corruption, with resources funneled to regime supporters.
  • Economic policies prioritize regime stability over public welfare.
• Manipulation of National Identity:
  • Exploitation of nationalism, religion, or cultural identity to unify support and demonize opponents.
  • Marginalization or persecution of minority groups as scapegoats.
  • Historical revisionism to glorify the regime or its leader.
• Weak Rule of Law:
  • Laws are applied selectively, favoring regime allies while targeting opponents.
  • Legal protections for individuals are ignored or dismantled.
  • Security forces operate with impunity, often above the law.
• Control Over Education and Culture:
  • Curricula rewritten to align with regime ideology.
  • Cultural institutions (e.g., arts, museums) are co-opted to serve state narratives.
  • Intellectuals and academics face censorship or persecution for challenging the regime.

Well Canada certainly checks a few of those boxes. I wouldn't say all of them but I certainly would say that more than half

I'd say the state has some problems with some of those but probably less than Canada

21 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

The Republican Party are fascists.  Trump got 76% of the vote among members of the GOP nationwide during the 2024 GOP primaries.

The republican party is not fascist. Don't use words if you don't know what they mean

[Moonlight Graham]

18 hours ago, CdnFox said:

The republican party is not fascist. Don't use words if you don't know what they mean

Trump is a fascist.  He's not Hitler, but he's a fascist.  The only thing constraining him right now are the courts and the constitution.  If he had his way he would have overturned the 2020 election results and tried his best to do that, and I certainly wouldn't put it past him to remove term limits too if he could.

If 76% of GOP members voted for him in the primaries last year, which means a lot of them are fascists too.   I assume a bunch of them aren't fascists but just believed his con-job about the "the steal" etc, so they're more naive and stupid than fascist.

I asked Grok the characteristics of a fascist leader.  Here you go, he fits every one, besides military expansionism, he's more into coercive economic measures for expansionist goals:

• Quote

   

  • Authoritarian Personality: A fascist leader centralizes power, demanding absolute loyalty and suppressing dissent. They portray themselves as the singular embodiment of the state or nation, often using titles like "Il Duce" (Mussolini) or "Führer" (Hitler).
  • Cult of Personality: They cultivate an image of infallibility, strength, and destiny, often through propaganda. This creates a mythos around their leadership, presenting them as a savior figure uniquely capable of restoring national greatness.
  • Nationalism and Xenophobia: Fascist leaders promote extreme nationalism, emphasizing the superiority of their nation or ethnic group while scapegoating minorities, foreigners, or external enemies as threats to national unity or purity.
  • Militarism and Aggression: They glorify military power, prioritize rearmament, and often pursue expansionist policies. War or conflict is framed as a means to achieve national rejuvenation or dominance.
  • Suppression of Opposition: Fascist leaders dismantle democratic institutions, curtail free speech, and eliminate political rivals through intimidation, violence, or legal manipulation. Independent media, unions, and civil liberties are targeted.
  • Control of Ideology and Culture: They enforce a singular ideology, often blending tradition with reactionary ideals, while controlling education, arts, and media to align with state propaganda. Dissenting cultural expressions are censored or destroyed.
  • Economic Corporatism: While not strictly capitalist or socialist, fascist leaders favor a controlled economy where private industry serves state goals. They often align with corporate elites while claiming to champion the "common man."
  • Charismatic Oratory and Symbolism: They rely on powerful rhetoric, mass rallies, and symbols (e.g., swastikas, fasces) to inspire devotion and mobilize followers, often exploiting economic or social discontent.
  • Exploitation of Crisis: Fascist leaders thrive in times of instability—economic collapse, political division, or cultural anxiety—presenting themselves as the solution to chaos while stoking fear and division.
  • Anti-Intellectualism and Populism: They often reject complex reasoning or expertise, favoring simplistic narratives that appeal to emotions. They position themselves as voices of the "people" against elites, despite often collaborating with them.

   

[paxamericana]

6 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

fascist leader

The choices were flooding the city with illegals suppressing wages and putting men in women’s sports or an alleged orange hitler who does none of those things. These were mein struggle. 

[Venandi]

3 hours ago, paxamericana said:

The choices were flooding the city with illegals suppressing wages and putting men in women’s sports or an alleged orange hitler who does none of those things. These were mein struggle. 

Yup, my sentiment exactly. Even though I disagree with a fair bit of "Trump stuff" he's still the least bad option by far. It's breathtaking in a way though, all the Democrats had to do was NOT be bat sh%$ crazy, it should have been an easy win for them.

Sometimes knowing what you absolutely don't want is more valuable (in the long run) than chasing an elusive version of what you do.

 

Edited July 29, 2025 by Venandi

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Venandi said:

Sometimes knowing what you absolutely don't want is more valuable (in the long run) than chasing an elusive version of what you do.

 

How is the American dream "elusive"?

Something called The pursuit of happiness in the declaration of Independence: 

 

https://lsd.law/define/pursuit-of-happiness

 

It's about doing what you like without the government getting in the way.  A discussion on how to do that depends on a healthy public sphere.

 

[ExFlyer]

On 7/27/2025 at 12:56 PM, paxamericana said:

No, we vote. We voted to pushback against the extremist element of our society that you failed to confront and enabled through your tolerance. 

And ended up being the most "extremist element of our society" in your history.  LOL

[blackbird]

5 hours ago, paxamericana said:

The choices were flooding the city with illegals suppressing wages

False.

quote

In 2022 America’s 10.9 million undocumented immigrants paid $96.7 billion in taxes. 

That included $19.5 billion in federal income taxes and $32.3 billion in federal payroll taxes. 

On a state and local level, undocumented immigrants contribute $37.3 billion in taxes, and in 40 of 50 states, they pay a higher effective state/local tax rate than the top 1% of households. The top 1% of highest-income households paid an average effective state/local tax of 7.2% in 2023, while the average undocumented immigrant paid a 10.1% effective tax rate to state/local governments.  

It is estimated that $40 to $137 billion of additional revenue could be generated each year if these people were granted work authorization. This is because a less exploitable workforce would be paid higher wages (thus pay more taxes) and tax compliance by both employers and employees would increase. 

Undocumented Immigrants paid an effective federal income tax rate of 5.27% in 2022, which was higher than some of the wealthiest Americans and mega corporations. 

According to ProPublica’s released tax data from the 400 highest-income individuals, undocumented immigrants paid a higher effective tax rate than five of the richest Americans.

Undocumented immigrants also paid a higher effective tax rate than 55 mega corporations. Here is a list of the Fortune 500 corporations that paid less that same year. These corporations had a combined pre-tax income of nearly $200 billion but paid just $3.7 billion in federal income tax, 90% less than undocumented immigrants.

Undocumented Immigrants make significant contributions to our economy.

Undocumented Immigrants make up around 5% of the total workforce, but play even larger roles in key industries: 1-in-7 construction workers, 1-in-8 agriculture workers, and 1-in-14 hospital workers.

Deporting millions of undocumented workers would shrink the economy by $1.1 to $1.7 trillion, a more devastating contraction than what happened during the 2008 financial crisis. 

unquote

How Undocumented Immigrants Contribute to Our Economy & Pay Higher Tax Rates Than Many Major Corporations - Americans For Tax Fairness

 

 

Edited July 29, 2025 by blackbird

[Venandi]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

How is the American dream "elusive"?

It's not, at least not yet... and my hope is that democratic efforts to dismantle it prove unsuccessful.

So, how does knowing what you don't want translate into making "the American dream" elusive? Only short term madness with no thought of long term consequences could ever accomplish that.  You could have easily convinced me to vote for (and support) more immigration, I'd have said "good idea, let's do it up right." That doesn't translate into open the floodgates like a bloody lunatic and ridicule / attack anyone who suggests a measure of moderation and caution.... a little discretion is required.

Here in Canada, if you want to import the equivalent of 5 cities the size of Thunder Bay in a single year then cool, we have the land mass to do that; but let's do a few simple logistic and infrastructure assessments. Any child with a hand held calculator could have avoided the situation we and the US now find ourselves in.

And as far as the current backlash goes (and there's lots about it I don't like BTW) the question really is WTF did you think was going to happen?  Did you honestly think that backlash wasn't on the horizon or that lunatic progressives weren't the cause of it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2025 by Venandi

[Michael Hardner]

12 minutes ago, Venandi said:

It's not, at least not yet... and my hope is that democratic efforts to dismantle it prove unsuccessful.

So, how does knowing what you don't want translate into making "the American dream" elusive? Only short term madness with no thought of long term consequences could ever accomplish that.  You could have easily convinced me to vote for (and support) more immigration, I'd have said "good idea, let's do it up right." That doesn't translate into open the floodgates like a bloody lunatic and ridicule / attack anyone who suggests a measure of moderation and caution.... a little discretion is required.

Here in Canada, if you want to import the equivalent of 5 cities the size of Thunder Bay in a single year then cool, we have the land mass to do that; but let's do a few simple logistic and infrastructure assessments so as not to do something silly.

Any child with a hand held calculator could have avoided the situation we and the US now find iourselves in. And as far as the current backlash goes (and there's lots about it I don't like BTW) the question really is WTF did you think was going to happen?  

Small 'd' democratic... interesting.

I was following up on this: "chasing an elusive version of what you do."

My problem with these issues is that they're agreed upon as priorities for "the" public.  I DO think that voting against what you don't want is valid.

I think the Canadian case against immigration is more broadly supported.

But my presence on these boards usually brings me to questions related to the public sphere.  As such, I'm always kind of above the fray.  Cheers...

[Venandi]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

I DO think that voting against what you don't want is valid.

But making it the norm isn't productive over the long haul IMO. That seems to be all people are doing now... I think it leads to a see-saw effect that generates its own momentum.

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Small 'd' democratic... interesting.

You might be overthinking the typo...

Gota run, see ya

 

[Moonbox]

14 minutes ago, Venandi said:

But making it the norm isn't productive over the long haul IMO. That seems to be all people are doing now... I think it leads to a see-saw effect that generates its own momentum.

It's neither the norm nor the exception.  You'll never get everything you want out of a government or a candidate, so you're always just balancing good vs bad.  That's just democracy, and it's not why we're seeing so much polarization.  

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

And ended up being the most "extremist element of our society" in your history.  LOL

They're not even close. The extreme is democrats are far worse than trump. And remember there's no powers  that trump is abusing that the democrats didn't do under Obama or Biden often even worse. 

[ExFlyer]

6 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

They're not even close..

[paxamericana]

3 hours ago, blackbird said:

tax

The claim is that illegal immigrant supress native worker’s wages.

Nothing was said about goverment tax revenue. I appreciate the wall of text though! 

[CdnFox]

6 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Awww muffin, are you starting off with an insult? GASP!!! LOLOLOL!!

And I would imagine if you want to listen to an a****** you could just hear yourself talk all day which is pretty much what you do.

[TreeBeard]

15 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

He's not Hitler

1920s Hitler didn’t start off being late 1930s Hitler either. 

 

On 7/26/2025 at 9:36 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

Which apply to Canada? 

None.  

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, paxamericana said:

The claim is that illegal immigrant supress native worker’s wages.

 

Lots of websites say this is false.

"Politicians, the media, and the public express concern that immigrants depress wages by competing with native workers, but 30 years of empirical research provide little supporting evidence to this claim. Most studies for industrialized countries have found no effect on wages, on average, and only modest effects on wage differentials between more and less educated immigrant and native workers. Native workers’ wages have been insulated by differences in skills, adjustments in local demand and technology, production expansion, and specialization of native workers as immigration rises. Cons There is some evidence of a negative effect of newly settled immigrants on the wages of earlier immigrants. The positive wage effects of immigration are weaker in countries with rigid labor markets, which may even experience some negative employment effects. In some southern European countries, immigrants have been more concentrated among less educated workers. "

"aUTHor’S Main MeSSaGe

While the literature reports a range of wage effects of immigration, most estimates are small and, on average, essentially zero. Recent evidence shows that immigration is likely to boost firm productivity and the wages of native workers in the long run by stimulating firm growth and contributing a range of skills and ideas. More open immigration policies, which allow for balanced entry of immigrants of different education and skill levels, are likely to have no adverse effects on native workers’ wages and may pave the way for productivity growth."

do-immigrant-workers-depress-the-wages-of-native-workers.pdf

When you have more people earning money, you have greater demand for more services and that creates more spin-off jobs as well.

Edited July 29, 2025 by blackbird

[herbie]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

How is the American dream "elusive"?

It fades away in seconds as soon as you wake up. 👅

[ExFlyer]

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Awww .

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

1920s Hitler didn’t start off being late 1930s Hitler either. 

He absolutely did. 

14 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

LOL had another meltdown again i see    

It's so easy to make you cry. 

[WestCanMan]

On 7/26/2025 at 9:36 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

I asked Grok for the signs of an authoritarian government.  Which apply to Canada?   Which to the US right now?

 

• Suppression of Political Opposition:
  • Opposition parties are banned, harassed, or marginalized.    2/3. 
  • Political rivals are imprisoned, exiled, or silenced through intimidation.    0/3
  • Elections, if held, are manipulated to ensure the ruling party’s victory (e.g., voter suppression, ballot stuffing, or media control).  1/1. 
• Restriction of Free Speech and Press:
  • Censorship of media outlets, including state control or shutdown of independent news organizations. 1/1 
  • Journalists face harassment, imprisonment, or violence for critical reporting.   3/3. 
  • Internet access may be restricted, with heavy surveillance of online activity.      1/2 
• Erosion of Civil Liberties:
  • Limits on freedom of assembly, protest, or association.     3/3. 
  • Use of excessive force by police or military to suppress demonstrations.   1/1 
  • Widespread surveillance of citizens, often justified as "national security."      Just a 'probably', so still 0/1 
• Centralized Control and Weakened Checks and Balances:
  • Concentration of power in the hands of a single leader or small group.       0/1  
  • Judiciary and legislative branches are undermined, controlled, or packed with loyalists. 2/2 
  • Constitutional changes to extend term limits or grant unchecked powers to the leader.    0/1 
• Propaganda and State-Controlled Narratives:
  • Government dominates public discourse through state-run media or propaganda campaigns. 5/5 
  • Alternative viewpoints are discredited as "fake news" or "foreign interference."   5/5 
  • Cult of personality around the leader, portraying them as infallible or indispensable.   5/5
• Use of Fear and Repression:
  • Secret police or paramilitary groups enforce loyalty and punish dissent.  1/1 (badgeless police at Convoy) 
  • Arbitrary arrests, torture, or disappearances of perceived enemies.     1/3
  • Policies stoke fear of external or internal "threats" to justify authoritarian measures.  1/1
•   Economic Control and Cronyism:
  • State control over key industries, often benefiting loyalists or elites.   1/1
  • Widespread corruption, with resources funneled to regime supporters.    1/1 
  • Economic policies prioritize regime stability over public welfare.    1/1
• Manipulation of National Identity:
  • Exploitation of nationalism, religion, or cultural identity to unify support and demonize opponents.  5/5 
  • Marginalization or persecution of minority groups as scapegoats.   1/1
  • Historical revisionism to glorify the regime or its leader.   1/1
• Weak Rule of Law:
  • Laws are applied selectively, favoring regime allies while targeting opponents.   1/1
  • Legal protections for individuals are ignored or dismantled.  1/1
  • Security forces operate with impunity, often above the law.    1/1
• Control Over Education and Culture:
  • Curricula rewritten to align with regime ideology.   1/1
  • Cultural institutions (e.g., arts, museums) are co-opted to serve state narratives. 1/1
  • Intellectuals and academics face censorship or persecution for challenging the regime.   1/1

52/59 by my rough count, regarding Canada, but to be fair, my answers were binary in nature, and some of these answers are 1/1 as "yeses", but not necessarily a 1/1, as in "to the highest extents possible".

I also used covid lockdown standards as the basis for answering some of these questions. 

Eg, I said that our gov't used excessive force to quell dissent, because they did, but they didn't do it on a "4 dead in Ohio" level, and only during covid.

[Moonlight Graham]

16 hours ago, paxamericana said:

The choices were flooding the city with illegals suppressing wages and putting men in women’s sports or an alleged orange hitler who does none of those things. These were mein struggle. 

You're right.   If only a fascist will do the things the people actually want then the people will vote for a fascist.