Toronto-Quebec City High-Speed Rail

[CdnFox]

57 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I've certainly got no use for the stupid thing.

You were literally just arguing in favor of it  

 

Quote

Meanwhile it's entirely accurate to point out how often you people have admired China's HSR for the same basic reason Trudeau admired China's ability to get things done.

If you mean by pointing out that the number is actually zero then sure, perfectly valid  

The only one so far that has made the argument that canada should have this type of service because china somehow did it is you.

Conservatives have pretty much said there doesn't seem to be the need for it yet. It just woudn't do enough good to justify it. 

The good news tho is that i doubt carney has any intention of building it. Your buddy is just trying to come up with announcements to win the by election.

[eyeball]

23 minutes ago, ironstone said:

Maybe it's actually the Liberals that suck at doing stuff. I concede that they excel at winning elections though.

No it's definitely Canada...and it has a lot more to do with being a Confederation of provinces who act more like seperate countries. We're more like the EU.

Progressiveness is just a natural governing ideology most of us happen to share. You people just need to learn to not take that so personally.

[Goddess]

9 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Progressiveness

🤣

"Progressiveness"

Like letting rapists and pedos loose on the streets.

Like mass immigrating so many people that our economy, jobs, healthcare, education system, housing collapses.

Like no vetting of refugees and now we have foreign drug cartels and terrorists on the streets.

Like massive deficits, more than in the history of Canada combined, that our grandchildren won't be able to pay off.

Like letting our own infrastructure crumble while giving away $35 billion to other countries for "gender equity".

Like "Free drugs for drug addicts".

And then electing the ones who did it - 4 times!

Yesssssssssssss.

So enlightened.

Much progress.

🙄

 

Edited April 2 by Goddess

[Goddess]

Remember when BC Ferries built those three aluminum-hulled PacifiClass High Speed(Fast Cat) ferries that were supposed to bring transportation into the new age?

Proposed budget was $210M. Actual budget was $450M and 3 years late.

Then became a colossal failure by being overweight, slower than projected, paint peeling off, too expensive to operate and couldn't operate in most terminals. They refused to listen to their expert engineers who worked on their vessels when they said it wouldn't work.

They ended up being decommissioned a few years later and sold for $20M. This is the largest example of provincial mismanagement and cost overruns in BC history.

Now imagine a $90BILLION dollar train system when Toronto can't even keep the Go Train running.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

Like

Like

Like

Like...?

No.

19 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Now imagine a $90BILLION dollar train system when Toronto can't even keep the Go Train running.

Yup. It's a ridiculous idea.

[Goddess]

Edmonton - Calgary High Speed Rail Line - Alberta Major Projects

Alberta has been exploring a high speed rail project between Edmonton & Calgary.

With a private investor.

[suds]

We're a country rich in resources that are in demand by our friends and allies that are willing to pay a premium because they consider us to be reliable in a world that's becoming increasingly unreliable. But we can't because the infrastructure to move all of our resources timely and efficiently doesn't exist while we're forced to export most of our oil to the U.S. at a steep discount. This is a problem of our own making because we're stupid. Sorry, but there's no other word for it. So this plan to spend $90B on high speed rail (which will likely double by the time it's completed) to replace an already existing rail line doesn't really surprise me.

[eyeball]

It's ultimately a mugs game but if we absolutely must allocate our resources towards meeting an exhausted world's needs the very least we should be doing is adding all the value we possibly can to ensure we get the most out of them.

Spend $90 billion on infrastructure for doing that. $900 billion if that's what it takes.

Otherwise leave it in the ground, on the stump or swimming in the sea for future generations to sustain themselves with.

 

[Zeitgeist]

Canada is frequently ridiculed in South Park and media for having dated military equipment and essentially being full of naive bumpkins.

If we can’t provide fast ground transportation between our two largest cities, which aren’t even that far apart by Canadian standards, how can we really be taken seriously as a developed country?

HSR has been debated and studied and cancelled for decades.  It’s pathetic that a country with our resources can’t accomplish this feat in the busiest corridor of the country while Europe and China have complete networks built and under construction.

Our steel and aluminum industries are suffering under tariffs and our unemployment is rising.  Rather than simply throwing everyone on welfare and EI and permanently closing plants, this is the time for major infrastructure projects, including high speed rail.  We’re going to pay these workers in order to live.  Let’s at least get some infrastructure out of it that brings Canada up to modern standards.

I have to admit that Poilievre is disappointing me on HSR. Leaders should have constructive vision for the country’s future: What can we build and achieve?  Having a positive constructive vision gives people hope and something to work towards. I want governments that build and get things done, because you’re going to pay, whether it’s for people to do nothing or to build something, so let’s build.

Edited April 4 by Zeitgeist

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is frequently ridiculed in South Park and media for having dated military equipment and essentially being full of naive bumpkins.

If we can’t provide fast ground transportation between our two largest cities, which aren’t even that far apart by Canadian standards, how can we really be taken seriously as a developed country?

 

I doubt anyone is measuring uS based on that. There has to be a business case for it and I don't see one currently. And those two cities are actually very far apart, there are some countries that would fit within the distance between those two  cities.

I'm not above doing projects for the purpose of national pride and world exposure but I just don't see how this one is worth it

[herbie]

Polls ahow overwhelming support for the rail link yet PP has chosen to stand with the 18% who oppose it.
I did Van-Toronto by rail a couple times in my youth and it was long and tedious enough to outweigh the scenery, and now it's absurdly expensive too.
Delaying modern high speed rail in the only section it's viable, in the times of rising fuel prices and climate concern is so incredibly backwards only a party of neanderthals would think it.

[CdnFox]

9 minutes ago, herbie said:

Polls ahow overwhelming support for the rail link yet PP has chosen to stand with the 18% who oppose it.
I did Van-Toronto by rail a couple times in my youth and it was long and tedious enough to outweigh the scenery, and now it's absurdly expensive too.
Delaying modern high speed rail in the only section it's viable, in the times of rising fuel prices and climate concern is so incredibly backwards only a party of neanderthals would think it.

That doesn't seem to be true

EAST HAWKESBURY, ON, March 31, 2026 /CNW/ - Canadians have not granted a clear mandate for the $90 billion Alto high-speed rail project, according to a recent nationwide survey (Abacus Data, March 19-24, 2026).

Only 25 per cent of Canadians strongly support the project, and one in five remains unsure.

Support for the project is strongest in Ontario and Quebec but declines in the West and Atlantic Canada.

Forty per cent of respondents said the Alto issue would influence their vote, while 46% say it would have no impact.

An Ontario citizens' association that opposes the project, ALTNO, commissioned the survey and says it indicates support is lukewarm.

"The survey suggests that high-speed rail is not a top priority for most Canadians," said ALTNO member, Kathleen O'Connell Renaud. 

 

At best support is lukewarm and I think the more people think about it the more it goes down not up

[Zeitgeist]

I see high speed rail between Toronto and Montreal in particular as an essential nation building project because it brings central Canada closer together, opening Quebec and Ontario up to each other with a practical spine of bullet trains that can be expanded over time to cities like Kitchener Waterloo and London, eventually connecting to US lines to New York and Chicago.

Importantly it creates new economic synergies and opportunities being able to move easily between Toronto and Montreal in 3 hours instead of 6.  It creates real estate and franchise opportunities for people in both provinces that simply aren’t accessible right now.  Flights are expensive and require additional last mile transit to and from airports.  Being able to walk from a Bay Street office at 5 pm with a weekender travel bag and arrive in Montreal with time to go for a walk and drinks after checking-in to the hotel on a Friday…What would it do for K-W and Toronto residents to be able to transit between these cities in 45 minutes?  London to Toronto in 75 minutes? Toronto-Peterborough in an hour?  Toronto-Ottawa in 2.hours 10 minutes? Toronto-Quebec City in under 5 hours?

These moves help modernize the Canadian economy. They make these provinces more liveable and desirable. GTA traffic is a disaster and Montreal isn’t much better. Alberta may build one too.  Eventually Vancouver to Calgary could have HSR. Realistically that’s about as good as it can get for HSR in Canada because our distances are too great and our populations are too sparse.

Also these links emphasize east-west, cross-country orientation rather than north-south, which is important for sovereignty and economic independence.

Finally, we need to put our steel mills and transportation sector resources to work at this time of tariffs and high fuel prices. Don’t let this crisis go to waste.  I still remember HSR promises in the time of Chrétien and Collenette.

Can we actually get major projects done in this country or is it going to fail apart over a a pissed of Elder or hunter off Highway 7?  Ridiculous.  

Edited April 4 by Zeitgeist

[ironstone]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

I see high speed rail between Toronto and Montreal in particular as an essential nation building project because it brings central Canada closer together, opening Quebec and Ontario up to each other with a practical spine of bullet trains that can be expanded over time to cities like Kitchener Waterloo and London, eventually connecting to US lines to New York and Chicago.

Importantly it creates new economic synergies and opportunities being able to move easily between Toronto and Montreal in 3 hours instead of 6.  It creates real estate and franchise opportunities for people in both provinces that simply aren’t accessible right now.  Flights are expensive and require additional last mile transit to and from airports.  Being able to walk from a Bay Street office at 5 pm with a weekender travel bag and arrive in Montreal with time to go for a walk and drinks after checking-in to the hotel on a Friday…What would it do for K-W and Toronto residents to be able to transit between these cities in 45 minutes?  London to Toronto in 75 minutes? Toronto-Peterborough in an hour?  Toronto-Ottawa in 2.hours 10 minutes? Toronto-Quebec City in under 5 hours?

These moves help modernize the Canadian economy. They make these provinces more liveable and desirable. GTA traffic is a disaster and Montreal isn’t much better. Alberta may build one too.  Eventually Vancouver to Calgary could have HSR. Realistically that’s about as good as it can get for HSR in Canada because our distances are too great and our populations are too sparse.

Also these links emphasize east-west, cross-country orientation rather than north-south, which is important for sovereignty and economic independence.

Finally, we need to put our steel mills and transportation sector resources to work at this time of tariffs and high fuel prices. Don’t let this crisis go to waste.  I still remember HSR promises in the time of Chrétien and Collenette.

Can we actually get major projects done in this country or is it going to fail apart over a a pissed of Elder or hunter off Highway 7?  Ridiculous.  

Outside of this Toronto- Montreal corridor, how does it benefit the rest of the country?

I oppose this project because it will have a huge negative impact on my community, not to mention all the other questions that have not been addressed.

How would you feel if important roads you depend on would be closed off, necessitating long detours? And that's just one impact.

 

https://altohsrcitizenresearch.ca/site-map-1

[suds]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Can we actually get major projects done in this country or is it going to fail apart over a a pissed of Elder or hunter off Highway 7?  Ridiculous.  

I'm also for getting major projects done, but we have to consider priorities. Our economy demands the building of new infrastructure for getting our resources to market. It also demands we double our electrical generating capacity by the year 2050. Convince me that if money is going to be spent, that building high speed rail to replace an existing line is a better choice than the other two.

[herbie]

1 hour ago, ironstone said:

Outside of this Toronto- Montreal corridor, how does it benefit the rest of the country?

Use your imagination. How does any megaprojct anywhere benefit another part of the country.  Jobs. On top of something that we didn't have before

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, suds said:

I'm also for getting major projects done, but we have to consider priorities. Our economy demands the building of new infrastructure for getting our resources to market. It also demands we double our electrical generating capacity by the year 2050. Convince me that if money is going to be spent, that building high speed rail to replace an existing line is a better choice than the other two.

Well if you only want Canada to be a resource-based economy and the very significant financial sector, tech sector, green economy, real estate, design, engineering, retail, and medical/light commercial office development industries aren’t important to you, and if you don’t want to attract top talent and tourism internationally, then don’t build high speed rail.  As Richard Florida has convincingly argued, our major cities are competing  to attract talent.  The Boston-Washington corridor and the Tokyo-Osaka corridor are the most powerful city conglomerates in the world.  San Francisco-Sacramento-LA are another powerhouse. All are getting or have HSR   

Canada is rightly doing a lot to develop natural resources and get them to market, but the reality is that Ontario and Quebec represent almost 70 percent of Canada’s economy and this industrial heartland has been hardest hit by tariffs and oil prices.  Alberta is enjoying an oil price windfall.  The auto sector has been hammered and China has been given a deal to sell EVs to placate Saskatchewan, so that province can sell more soy and potash.  The East Coast gets to sell more seafood. 

Edited April 4 by Zeitgeist

[ironstone]

1 hour ago, herbie said:

Use your imagination. How does any megaprojct anywhere benefit another part of the country.  Jobs. On top of something that we didn't have before

Money that could be better spent on new pipelines, which would be an actual cash cow. But we both know there won't be any new pipelines. New home construction? Not much of that going on now. 

This rail line won't generate remotely as much as pipelines would, and it will likely depend on continued subsidies to exist, much as Via rail depends on subsidies.

Every major high-speed rail project in history has exceeded its initial budget. Here’s what the international evidence says — and what it means for Alto’s $60–120 billion estimate.

 

Key Finding

Based on a database of more than 16,000 megaprojects, nine out of ten run over budget. Rail projects average a 44.7% cost overrun. EU high-speed rail specifically averaged a 78% overrun across the lines audited in 2018. Applied to Alto’s $60–90 billion estimate, historical averages suggest a realistic final cost of $87–130 billion or more — before a single track has been laid.

This is not pessimism. It is the consistent, documented, peer-reviewed pattern from comparable projects on every continent where high-speed rail has been built.

https://citizenresearch.ca/economics-costs/

How many Canadian megaprojects can you name that didn't go way over budget?

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is rightly doing a lot to develop natural resources and get them to market

You can't be including oil in that claim.

[eyeball]

Based on current reports and academic analysis of the Alto high-speed rail project it is estimated that the system would not become self-sustaining or reach a break-even point for approximately 48 years after operations begin. 

Can they build double decker trains or do the WestJet thing with the seats?

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I see high speed rail between Toronto and Montreal in particular as an essential nation building project because it brings central Canada closer together, opening Quebec and Ontario up to each other with a practical spine of bullet trains that can be expanded over time to cities like Kitchener Waterloo and London, eventually connecting to US lines to New York and Chicago.

Importantly it creates new economic synergies and opportunities being able to move easily between Toronto and Montreal in 3 hours instead of 6.  It creates real estate and franchise opportunities for people in both provinces that simply aren’t accessible right now.  Flights are expensive and require additional last mile transit to and from airports.  Being able to walk from a Bay Street office at 5 pm with a weekender travel bag and arrive in Montreal with time to go for a walk and drinks after checking-in to the hotel on a Friday…What would it do for K-W and Toronto residents to be able to transit between these cities in 45 minutes?  London to Toronto in 75 minutes? Toronto-Peterborough in an hour?  Toronto-Ottawa in 2.hours 10 minutes? Toronto-Quebec City in under 5 hours?

These moves help modernize the Canadian economy. They make these provinces more liveable and desirable. GTA traffic is a disaster and Montreal isn’t much better. Alberta may build one too.  Eventually Vancouver to Calgary could have HSR. Realistically that’s about as good as it can get for HSR in Canada because our distances are too great and our populations are too sparse.

Also these links emphasize east-west, cross-country orientation rather than north-south, which is important for sovereignty and economic independence.

Finally, we need to put our steel mills and transportation sector resources to work at this time of tariffs and high fuel prices. Don’t let this crisis go to waste.  I still remember HSR promises in the time of Chrétien and Collenette.

Can we actually get major projects done in this country or is it going to fail apart over a a pissed of Elder or hunter off Highway 7?  Ridiculous.  

I don't believe any of that is true. I'm entirely open to being proven wrong but just saying those things doesn't make them accurate and I don't see any numbers or any studies or any even logical argument that strongly supports that

In fact the most optimistic number I've seen, and it is optimistic, is that it might produce 36 billion in new gDP. But it's going to cost us 90. And we both know it they say it's costing 90 it's actually going to cost closer to $120 to 180. That's not good math for us

And to top if off, it will ONLY benefit that very small region. A TINY number of people will benefit directly from this.  So why am I paying for it? If it's such a great idea why aren't ontario and quebrec doing it themselves?  Why do I have to buy them a fast rail system out of my own pocket as a taxpayer federally but ALSO have to buy the ferries my province needs?!?

To me this just looks like more "liberals ripping off the west to buy votes in the east' again. 

[Army Guy]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well if you only want Canada to be a resource-based economy and the very significant financial sector, tech sector, green economy, real estate, design, engineering, retail, and medical/light commercial office development industries aren’t important to you, and if you don’t want to attract top talent and tourism internationally, then don’t build high speed rail.  As Richard Florida has convincingly argued, our major cities are competing  to attract talent.  The Boston-Washington corridor and the Tokyo-Osaka corridor are the most powerful city conglomerates in the world.  San Francisco-Sacramento-LA are another powerhouse. All are getting or have HSR   

Canada is rightly doing a lot to develop natural resources and get them to market, but the reality is that Ontario and Quebec represent almost 70 percent of Canada’s economy and this industrial heartland has been hardest hit by tariffs and oil prices.  Alberta is enjoying an oil price windfall.  The auto sector has been hammered and China has been given a deal to sell EVs to placate Saskatchewan, so that province can sell more soy and potash.  The East Coast gets to sell more seafood. 

I think we are bleeding top talent for many reasons, like affordability, poor health care, poor services, poor infra structure, etc etc the list is endless...that and we can not get any project up and finished...90 Bil would go a long way to fixing health care, education system, build a pipeline, or two, our outdated infra structure...something ALL Canadian could use...

[Army Guy]

3 hours ago, herbie said:

Use your imagination. How does any megaprojct anywhere benefit another part of the country.  Jobs. On top of something that we didn't have before

Just a question, how many jobs does 90 to 120 bil buy ? must be some of the highest paid in the country...would it not be nice to i don't know fix health care, our education system, sink some money into our infra structure....might even create more jobs....and get more done.....

[Army Guy]

8 hours ago, herbie said:

Polls ahow overwhelming support for the rail link yet PP has chosen to stand with the 18% who oppose it.
I did Van-Toronto by rail a couple times in my youth and it was long and tedious enough to outweigh the scenery, and now it's absurdly expensive too.
Delaying modern high speed rail in the only section it's viable, in the times of rising fuel prices and climate concern is so incredibly backwards only a party of neanderthals would think it.

Yes because the rest of the country is in flames , lets distract them and build a HSR, makes sense....

[Zeitgeist]

4 hours ago, CdnFox said:

I don't believe any of that is true. I'm entirely open to being proven wrong but just saying those things doesn't make them accurate and I don't see any numbers or any studies or any even logical argument that strongly supports that

In fact the most optimistic number I've seen, and it is optimistic, is that it might produce 36 billion in new gDP. But it's going to cost us 90. And we both know it they say it's costing 90 it's actually going to cost closer to $120 to 180. That's not good math for us

And to top if off, it will ONLY benefit that very small region. A TINY number of people will benefit directly from this.  So why am I paying for it? If it's such a great idea why aren't ontario and quebrec doing it themselves?  Why do I have to buy them a fast rail system out of my own pocket as a taxpayer federally but ALSO have to buy the ferries my province needs?!?

To me this just looks like more "liberals ripping off the west to buy votes in the east' again. 

But it keeps the steel mills running, creates jobs, and improves travel connections in an area where over half the population lives.  What do Ontarians dire receive from some of the infrastructure and resource projects out west?  My point is that Ontario isn’t getting much infrastructure from the feds outside of this rail line, and the extensions off the line will likely be paid for provincially.  Most major projects have cost overruns.  What makes any of these projects projects significantly better than the others?  In some cases there are simply bad ideas, but in most of these projects, people will support them if they’re local. Well this project impacts about 13 million people in the Greater Golden Horseshoe and another 7 million from Ottawa to Quebec City.

[August1991]

11 hours ago, herbie said:

Polls ahow overwhelming support for the rail link yet PP has chosen to stand with the 18% who oppose it.
I did Van-Toronto by rail a couple times in my youth and it was long and tedious enough to outweigh the scenery, and now it's absurdly expensive too.
Delaying modern high speed rail in the only section it's viable, in the times of rising fuel prices and climate concern is so incredibly backwards only a party of neanderthals would think it.

Disagree.

In polls, Canadians say they like rail.

But in fact they largely fly, or drive.

======

Canada is a large country. Rail made sense centuries ago. Eisenhower created the Interstate. Now we use Starnet.