Pro-Hamas Rallies in Canada

[User]

1 minute ago, Black Dog said:

There's nothing ironic here. I've given you a definition of ethnic cleansing, shown evidence of what's going on and explained how the latter fits the former and you're response has been "nuh uh."

Odd, I can see a whole lot more typing out than "nuh uh" going on from me here. 

 

2 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Yes but if it's not ethnic cleansing unless every single house is destroyed and every single person expelled, then it's not genocide if anyone is left alive. Sorry, but those are your rules.

Nice strawman. I never said anything about every single house being destroyed and every single person expelled. It is you who seems to think that any amount of people harmed = ethnic cleansing, which is absurd. 

 

3 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Except they don't. Israel won't let them build and is destroying existing settlements. Do you need someone to do the math for you? Also, I've already explained why "population go up" is a retarded gauge when the point of ethnic cleansing is about removing people from a territory regardless of their numbers.

Not exactly. The issue is limited to a particular area of the West Bank where Israel doesn't allow for any new land to be built on in that particular area without permission. I am not aware of any blanket prohibition in all of the West Bank... that is absurd on its face. If that were the case, there would literally be nothing new built anywhere for the last almost 50 years. The settlements destroyed are those built illegally in this particular area without permission. 

Guess what? Israel also demolishes Israeli structures that are built illegally in this area as well, and a whole lot of Palestinian structures are not torn down that were built illegally. 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

I don't think you know what "isolated" means. These aren't discreet incidents, they are part of a broader systemic campaign.

I think there are some 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank and the settler violence we are talking about around 1,000 various incidents of violence a year, stuff like an Isreali settler killed a cow included in that number. So no, there is no systemic large scale violence against all of the Palestinian people in the West Bank. We are talking about the isolated incidents between where Isrealis and Palestinians live near each other and that violence is not all one sided either. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Bullshit. There were less than 100,000 settlers in the early '90s, there's more than a half a million now and their numbers continue to increase. Again, do the math.

Yes, just as the numbers of Palestinians increase as well. That is usually what happens when people have families and populations naturally grow... That is not ethnic cleansing. 

[Michael Hardner]

47 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1. No I despise a big group of people marching in front of our Parliament buildings cheering Oct 7 when a guy glorifies it over a megaphone.  

2. You're not objective, you're in denial of what's happening here. 

3. These aren't just a few bad apples my friend.  I would say let's call a spade a spade, but you'll think that's racist too

1. The university protests are about Divestment.  Again, you are finding a reason to take a side, a knee jerk reaction and rush to judge.
2. I am, because I'm not trying to label one side correct and the other one wrong as you do again and again.  These situations are complicated and you're indulging yourself to broadly weigh in with one side.
3. Based on what ?  People were posting tons of pictures of Convoy protesters with Swastikas etc. but I knew it wasn't indicative of the protest as a whole.  That's because I'm objective and you're not.

This discussion won't go anywhere, though.  I have said my piece.

[Black Dog]

24 minutes ago, User said:

Odd, I can see a whole lot more typing out than "nuh uh" going on from me here. 

The sentiment is the same.

Quote

Nice strawman. I never said anything about every single house being destroyed and every single person expelled. It is you who seems to think that any amount of people harmed = ethnic cleansing, which is absurd. 

Yes you did lol.

Quote

Not exactly. The issue is limited to a particular area of the West Bank where Israel doesn't allow for any new land to be built on in that particular area without permission. I am not aware of any blanket prohibition in all of the West Bank... that is absurd on its face. If that were the case, there would literally be nothing new built anywhere for the last almost 50 years. The settlements destroyed are those built illegally in this particular area without permission. 

As with the policy of kicking Palestinians off their land, there's no explicit de jure prohibition, but permits are prohibitively expensive and seldom granted even if someone can afford them.

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Guess what? Israel also demolishes Israeli structures that are built illegally in this area as well, and a whole lot of Palestinian structures are not torn down that were built illegally. 

Cite?

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I think there are some 3 million Palestinians in the West Bank and the settler violence we are talking about around 1,000 various incidents of violence a year, stuff like an Isreali settler killed a cow included in that number. So no, there is no systemic large scale violence against all of the Palestinian people in the West Bank. We are talking about the isolated incidents between where Isrealis and Palestinians live near each other and that violence is not all one sided either. 

1000 incidents a year is like three per day, that's not systemic? Come the hell on.

Quote

Yes, just as the numbers of Palestinians increase as well. That is usually what happens when people have families and populations naturally grow... That is not ethnic cleansing. 

Again: ethnic cleansing has nothing to do with the size of a given population and everything to do with where they are.

 

[WestCanMan]

47 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. The university protests are about Divestment.  Again, you are finding a reason to take a side, a knee jerk reaction and rush to judge.

The protests are about what they're chanting, what their placards say, which groups they're threatening, etc.

They are about evil Israel and victim Palestine. They're just misinformed and overly judgemental. 

Quote

2. I am, because I'm not trying to label one side correct and the other one wrong as you do again and again.  These situations are complicated and you're indulging yourself to broadly weigh in with one side.

What you're doing as called being an apologist, or playing Devil's advocate. 

There's really no strong argument to made in favour of people who are chanting about the glory of Oct 7th, and genocide.

Quote

3. Based on what ?  People were posting tons of pictures of Convoy protesters with Swastikas etc. but I knew it wasn't indicative of the protest as a whole.  That's because I'm objective and you're not.

Ahhhh, there you go again, pretending to have borne witness to the sea of swastikas and confederate flags at the convoy, but with no photo evidence of same... Because you're "objective". 

[WestCanMan]

21 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

The sentiment is the same.

Yes you did lol.

As with the policy of kicking Palestinians off their land, there's no explicit de jure prohibition, but permits are prohibitively expensive and seldom granted even if someone can afford them.

Cite?

1000 incidents a year is like three per day, that's not systemic? Come the hell on.

Again: ethnic cleansing has nothing to do with the size of a given population and everything to do with where they are.

Why is your whole argument about what's happening in the West Bank?

Isn't this almost entirely about Gaza? 

What do the Gazans have to be so upset about that it justifies a terrorist attack? 

When do you think the first attempt to commit genocide against the Jews in post-mandate Israel was made?

[User]

21 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

As with the policy of kicking Palestinians off their land, there's no explicit de jure prohibition, but permits are prohibitively expensive and seldom granted even if someone can afford them.

Again, they have various areas like B and C, and whatnot; it is only one of those areas, I believe, more closely around Jereusluem, that has more blanket prohibition... it is not the entirety of the West Bank. 

 

 

22 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

1000 incidents a year is like three per day, that's not systemic? Come the hell on.

Systemic to what? The point is that where there are close living conditions between Israelis and Palestinians, there is some violence that happens. Its like any other statistic... In America something like 10,000 people die a year falling down stairs. 

Is that "systemic?"

To the larger point here, the fact that there is some small amount of violence that occurs for some small % of the population, that is hardly evidence of ethnic cleansing. 

Its simply a matter of the human condition that when people who have generations of hate and angst and religious animosity towards one another are in close proximity that incidents will happen. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Cite?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/police-demolish-illegal-settler-structures-prompting-outrage-from-coalition-members/

[Michael Hardner]

3 hours ago, User said:

Maybe if there are Pro-Hamas terrorist supporters chanting genocidal death slogans about Israel on one side.... its a bad thing too. 

I think so.  But Charlottesville was a White Supremacist Rally and these are Anti Israel protests.  The Ottawa rally was an anti Trudeau rally. All different things.

 

 

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I'm aware that not everyone protesting in support of the Palestinians supports Oct 7 or the destruction of Israel, which is why i was careful not label the whole.

Try being more resolute about your realization that at heart these kids heads are in a genuine place of concern. I can certainly see why someone would want to capture their movement and turn it into something inappropriate.

It sickens me that kids today are still grappling with a pile of shit that should have been cleaned up decades ago by their grandparents. They won't have a chance against more pressing things like wealth inequality and rising authoritarianism - two sides of the same coin really.

And of course there's climate change.

In actual fact I'm starting to think climate change will very likely make all these issues relatively moot sooner than anything else.

[User]

41 minutes ago, eyeball said:

And of course there's climate change.

In actual fact I'm starting to think climate change will very likely make all these issues relatively moot sooner than anything else.

What do you mean by this?

[Moonlight Graham]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. The university protests are about Divestment.  Again, you are finding a reason to take a side, a knee jerk reaction and rush to judge.
2. I am, because I'm not trying to label one side correct and the other one wrong as you do again and again.  These situations are complicated and you're indulging yourself to broadly weigh in with one side.
3. Based on what ?  People were posting tons of pictures of Convoy protesters with Swastikas etc. but I knew it wasn't indicative of the protest as a whole.  That's because I'm objective and you're not.

This discussion won't go anywhere, though.  I have said my piece.

1.  Yes the university protests are largely about divestment, and while protesting they are occupying and blocking off parts of campus property (which they don't own) from Jewish students, and harassing Jewish students.  A simple twitter search will reveal many examples.  How many do you need, I can post them all day:

2.  This is a strawman, do not mis-state my opinions because it helps your argument.  I've never labelled one "side" as "correct".  I have acknowledged and condemned all the bad things the IDF has done, like allegedly denying food aid, and building settlements in the West Bankand have said that all of the allegations of war crimes and genocide should be investigated by the ICF, and I have also made a specific point to not paint all the pro-Palestinians with the same brush, hence the language you don't like ("most", "a lot of...").  The only "sides" here are the ones who are for and against basic human rights.  And there's a hell of a lot of pro-Palestine protestors singing "From the river to the sea..." and doing all sorts of other nonsense.  I'm not saying "all Arabs/pro-Palestinians" are bad, I have Arab/Muslim friends, i'm saying all of the a-holes who are doing/saying a-hole things are bad. 

3.  There isn't just a few pro-Palestinian protestors here and there chanting "From the river to the sea...".  This is their freaking slogan.  You're not objective, you're either grossly uninformed on what's going on or you're another typical progressive with racist politically correct double-standards too trapped in your white shame/guilt to have the courage to call out people on their nonsense if they happen to have skin colour darker than yours.

If a bunch of white Trumpsters were protesting/occupying campuses and harassing/blocking Muslims from classes and parts of campus and calling for the destruction of every Muslim country and glorifying & cheering the murder/rape of innocent Muslim civilians while marching in front of Parliament you'd be all over them calling them Nazi chuds etc, and you'd be right.  So what about the Islamo-Nazis?

[Moonlight Graham]

47 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Try being more resolute about your realization that at heart these kids heads are in a genuine place of concern. I can certainly see why someone would want to capture their movement and turn it into something inappropriate.

So genuine in their loving peaceful hearts that they won't allow Jews to walk across their own campus, which they have illegally occupied and set up barricades to keep the Jews and other "unwanteds" out.  Ironic.  So much peace and love happening right now.  It's the 60's all over again really.

Yeah I know they are genuinely upset at what's happening in Gaza.  They just need to obey the law and respect people's human rights while they protest, which is what I said the convoy truckers should have done too, and I also called for the truckers' arrests due to their illegal actions too even though I support their anti-mandate cause 110%.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, User said:

What do you mean by this?

That we're all hooped.

[User]

20 minutes ago, eyeball said:

That we're all hooped.

Um. No. 

There is literally no objective evidence to seriously support the catastrophic climate change position.

This is just pure unmitigated doom porn. 
 

 

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, User said:

Um. No. 

There is literally no objective evidence to seriously support the catastrophic climate change position.

This is just pure unmitigated doom porn. 

Sure, I'm just as certain the whole ME conflict thing is just fake news - a wag the dog nothing-burger, just Christians pining for attention or something.

[Michael Hardner]

10 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1.  Yes the university protests are largely about divestment, and while protesting they are occupying and blocking off parts of campus property (which they don't own) from Jewish students, and harassing Jewish students.  A simple twitter search will reveal many examples.  How many do you need, I can post them all day:

2.  This is a strawman, do not mis-state my opinions because it helps your argument.  I've never labelled one "side" as "correct".  I have acknowledged and condemned all the bad things the IDF has done, like allegedly denying food aid, and building settlements in the West Bankand have said that all of the allegations of war crimes and genocide should be investigated by the ICF, and I have also made a specific point to not paint all the pro-Palestinians with the same brush, hence the language you don't like ("most", "a lot of...").  The only "sides" here are the ones who are for and against basic human rights.  And there's a hell of a lot of pro-Palestine protestors singing "From the river to the sea..." and doing all sorts of other nonsense.  I'm not saying "all Arabs/pro-Palestinians" are bad, I have Arab/Muslim friends, i'm saying all of the a-holes who are doing/saying a-hole things are bad. 

3.  There isn't just a few pro-Palestinian protestors here and there chanting "From the river to the sea...".  This is their freaking slogan.  You're not objective, you're either grossly uninformed on what's going on or you're another typical progressive with racist politically correct double-standards too trapped in your white shame/guilt to have the courage to call out people on their nonsense if they happen to have skin colour darker than yours.

If a bunch of white Trumpsters were protesting/occupying campuses and harassing/blocking Muslims from classes and parts of campus and calling for the destruction of every Muslim country and glorifying & cheering the murder/rape of innocent Muslim civilians while marching in front of Parliament you'd be all over them calling them Nazi chuds etc, and you'd be right.  So what about the Islamo-Nazis?

You're wrong about me, and I have not seen anything that backs up your claims about the protests at scale.  I already explained why you are biased, because you're using the same methods that anti convoy people used to discredit that movement.   I'm taking about picking sides for the demonstration.  You have a desperate need to classify politics in a binary way.  I can't find anything to base a discussion with you on for this.

[ExFlyer]

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

Try being more resolute about your realization that at heart these kids heads are in a genuine place of concern. I can certainly see why someone would want to capture their movement and turn it into something inappropriate.

It sickens me that kids today are still grappling with a pile of shit that should have been cleaned up decades ago by their grandparents. They won't have a chance against more pressing things like wealth inequality and rising authoritarianism - two sides of the same coin really.

And of course there's climate change.

In actual fact I'm starting to think climate change will very likely make all these issues relatively moot sooner than anything else.

Shit yeah, lets blame the past generation instead of the ones acting today.

If you want to go down that path, lets blame the people of 2 or 3 thousand years ago and into the present for not sorting out the crap they have been  dealing with over the millennia??

Climate change?? Yeah, for sure blame that LOL

[ironstone]

I can't understand why so many people casually dismiss what Hamas did on Oct 7 with a 'so what?' attitude.

They say, no proof of atrocities!

Fact is, the footage that Hamas took(they were PROUD of it) was shown to select journalists in the misguided hope that maybe this time, Hamas would not win the war of public opinion. Wrong, Hamas is winning the war of public opinion. Lot's of gullible people around these days.

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/s1gwdnawt

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, ironstone said:

I can't understand why so many people casually dismiss what Hamas did on Oct 7 with a 'so what?' attitude.

They say, no proof of atrocities!

We're dealing with people with an agenda, who say what they want to say, regardless of what they know to be true. 

These are people who said "There's no inflation", "The vaccine is 100% safe and it protects me from covid, but unvaxed people can still carry covid and it might kill me", "The protests are mostly peaceful", "The Afghanistan withdrawal was a huge success", "Jussie Smollett is still a victim, even if the attack on him never really occurred", "Trump referred to immigrants as animals", etc, etc. 

You can show them all the facts you want, the Black Dogs of this world are unaffected by truth. It's not what motivates them.  

[Michael Hardner]

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5hY2FzdC5jb20vcHVibGljL3Nob3dzLzYzMGNlYWUzM2ZlMzc0MDAxMjI4MjhjNg/episode/NjYzMzE1YmY5ZGFhNDgwMDEyMzcxNWZj?ep=14

 

The first part of this podcast is a great takedown on media coverage, and then the host and guest do a fantastic job of showing how reasonable people can disagree on the issues, and do a positive exploration of how it can be discussed better.

[User]

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

Sure, I'm just as certain the whole ME conflict thing is just fake news - a wag the dog nothing-burger, just Christians pining for attention or something.

There is A LOT of space between acknowledging climate change, how bad it is, what is causing it, and what we can even do about it... and then getting to the doomsday nonsense you are pushing.

 

 

 

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Shit yeah, lets blame the past generation instead of the ones acting today.

Or let's cheer the kids for acting.

4 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

If you want to go down that path, lets blame the people of 2 or 3 thousand years ago and into the present for not sorting out the crap they have been  dealing with over the millennia??

I'm taking about people and a time within living memory.

4 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Climate change?? Yeah, for sure blame that LOL

I'm not blaming climate change for causing this conflict In saying it'll likely settle it by overcoming it in terms of importance.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, User said:

There is A LOT of space between acknowledging climate change, how bad it is, what is causing it, and what we can even do about it... and then getting to the doomsday nonsense you are pushing.

Compared to the space that says climate change is fake news?

Sure okay, let's go with that.

[ExFlyer]

3 hours ago, ironstone said:

I can't understand why so many people casually dismiss what Hamas did on Oct 7 with a 'so what?' attitude.

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/s1gwdnawt

Who ever "casually dismiss what Hamas did"??

We all agree the attack on 7 October was a Hamas incursion.

What people are upset about and protesting is the complete Israeli bombing and invasion for the past 7 months in retaliation.

 

8 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Or let's cheer the kids for acting.

I'm taking about people and a time within living memory.

I'm not blaming climate change for causing this conflict In saying it'll likely settle it by overcoming it in terms of importance.

You need to be a bit clearer if you do not want to be questioned.

[eyeball]

3 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

You need to be a bit clearer if you do not want to be questioned.

I'm just saying climate change will be an overarching issue that clears most of the decks of other issues that have seized our attention. It's almost convenient how other issues always pop up and preclude us from ever tackling it.

Like rust though it's never sleeps, it never stops getting worse.

[User]

12 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Compared to the space that says climate change is fake news?

Sure okay, let's go with that.

Again, there is A LOT of space between climate change is fake and the doomsday we will all die nonsense you are pushing.

it isn’t one or the other.